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Updated on April 16, 2014, 7:45 pm

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16 Apr: @ 19:28:55  Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos [Deborah Allen]
16 Apr: @ 19:28:47 Re: peep question [Jeff Gilligan]
16 Apr: @ 19:25:38 Re: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos [Peter Pyle]
16 Apr: @ 17:11:00 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Mike O'Keeffe]
16 Apr: @ 17:10:51 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Peter Pyle]
16 Apr: @ 14:54:31 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Kevin McLaughlin]
16 Apr: @ 12:21:29  Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Robert DeCandido PhD]
16 Apr: @ 12:20:17 Re: Kelp vs. Western [Alvaro Jaramillo]
16 Apr: @ 02:41:22 Re: peep question [David Irons]
15 Apr: @ 18:16:16 Re: European Golden Plover [COLIN BRADSHAW]
15 Apr: @ 17:23:14 Re: European Golden Plover [Killian Mullarney]
15 Apr: @ 15:31:24  peep question [Lethaby, Nick]
15 Apr: @ 15:31:16 Re: European Golden Plover [Lee G R Evans]
15 Apr: @ 14:51:38  European Golden Plover [Harvey Tomlinson]
15 Apr: @ 01:15:35  Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood]
14 Apr: @ 13:02:23  ADMIN: BirdWG01 list problems [Chuck Otte]
14 Apr: @ 08:10:52  1st year yellow-legged Gull or strange LBBG? [Suzanne Sullivan]
13 Apr: @ 22:38:13  Kelp vs. Western [Noah Arthur]
13 Apr: @ 03:41:21  Salutations! [Kristen and Mitchell Harris]
10 Apr: @ 19:16:15 Re: possible Ring-billed Gull? [Peter Adriaens]
10 Apr: @ 16:53:18 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Andy Kratter]
10 Apr: @ 16:20:31 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Wayne Hoffman]
10 Apr: @ 13:15:35 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
10 Apr: @ 11:45:08 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Blake Mathys]
10 Apr: @ 09:17:52 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
10 Apr: @ 09:13:45 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [julian hough]
10 Apr: @ 07:22:38 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [edboyd1959]
09 Apr: @ 20:11:17 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Christopher Vogel]
09 Apr: @ 18:46:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Lethaby, Nick]
09 Apr: @ 18:11:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 16:26:30 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Tony leukering]
09 Apr: @ 16:16:09 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Tony leukering]
09 Apr: @ 15:39:48 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
09 Apr: @ 15:04:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 14:31:37 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Lethaby, Nick]
09 Apr: @ 13:56:38 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
09 Apr: @ 13:01:14 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 13:00:54 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Noah Arthur]
09 Apr: @ 12:14:14 Re: possible Ring-billed Gull? [Amar Ayyash]
09 Apr: @ 08:31:10 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Paul Lehman]
09 Apr: @ 00:19:37  Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [John Puschock]
08 Apr: @ 06:55:56  possible Ring-billed Gull? [Neil Davidson]
07 Apr: @ 18:13:02  Hummingbird, Delaware, USA [Ted Floyd]
07 Apr: @ 17:19:02  Black-eared vs Black (Pariah) Kite - Identification [Robert DeCandido PhD]
06 Apr: @ 17:34:11  Estrilda waxbills in Northern Tanzania [Joseph Morlan]
31 Mar: @ 14:33:52  The problem of sampling colour from digital images [Mike O'Keeffe]
28 Mar: @ 12:58:06 Re: Slaty-backed structure observations [Paul Hurtado]
26 Mar: @ 03:06:49 Re: Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling? [David Irons]
25 Mar: @ 21:09:54 Re: Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling? [Clive Harris]
25 Mar: @ 18:58:44  Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling? [jeremy gatten]





Subject: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:28 pm
From: dallenyc AT earthlink.net
 
Hi All,

Thank you for all the helpful comments.

Here are two more photos of the Red-breasted Merganser in question:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8969&photog=1

and the first photo posted:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

I hope the two additional photos will suffice to nail down the i.d.

Deborah Allen

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: peep question
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:28 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 

On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:57 PM, "Lethaby, Nick" wrote:

> All:
>
> While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled ďMinature Western SandpiperĒ:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesnít look typical for a Semipalmated.
>
> Nick Lethaby
> office: +1 805 562 5106
> mobile: +1 805 284 6200
> e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


No - it does not look right for a Western, or like a Semipalmated should look like in my experience, though I have seen far fewer of them in spring than I do Westerns. I agree regarding your comments about the absence of chevrons and the rather dull coloration of the bird. The bill looks too finely pointed for either species, and very short for a Western.

Jeff Gilligan
Oregon


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:25 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Deborah and all -

The wing photos (and another sent off-line by Peter Post) confirm it
a first-spring male. In this photo:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1

The primaries appear worn and tapered (juvenal), the greater coverts
are rounded and have indistinct brownish tips (they are squared and
have more-distinct and blacker tips in adults), and there are two
generations of lesser coverts, rounder and browner juvenal and
more-squared and grayer formative feathers. It appears the middle
tertials have been replaced formative (as would be expected of a
first-cycle bird that had replaced all rectrices) and are white or
mostly white, indicating male (all tertials are brown in females).

Cheers,

Peter

At 04:28 PM 4/16/2014, Deborah Allen wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Thank you for all the helpful comments.
>
>Here are two more photos of the Red-breasted Merganser in question:
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8969&photog=1
>
>and the first photo posted:
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1
>
>I hope the two additional photos will suffice to nail down the i.d.
>
>Deborah Allen
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 17:11 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi all,

In the spirit of Easter I have started a project to bring the plates of
Robert Ridgway's Colour Standards and Colour Nomenclature (1912) back to
life in the modern sRBG Colour Space (the default colour pallet used by the
internet and all digital imaging devices). For those interested please read
more here...
http://birdingimagequalitytool...
ur-nomenclature.html

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 17:10 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I agree with Kevin that this is likely a first-spring male as opposed to
an older female showing male-like characters in the head, but I'd prefer
to see the open wing to be absolutely certain.

The outer primaries look black and there appear to be no juvenal tail
feathers remaining, both suggesting adult (although a small proportion of
first-year birds replace all rectrices during the preformative molt). The
breast, back, and flank feathers appear somewhat uniform, not with obvious
brown juvenal feathers as typically occur in first-spring male diving
ducks, but appearance in these areas may also fit some first-spring males.
The newer-looking patch of flank feathers might suggest first-cycle but
might also occur in adults due either to an extra molt of these feathers
or of a protracted/suspended prebasic molt.

Favoring first-cycle male, the iris may be too red for an adult female,
and I'm not sure that females would show white shaft streaks to the
longest scapulars, whereas first-spring males may acquire white in these
feathers on the way to the adult male pattern (completely or primarily
white). The crest looks a bit weak, which may be more of a first-cycle
character than a female character.

If any open-wing shots have been taken it would be fairly straightforward
to confirm this as a first-cycle male (or not).

Peter

> Hi Robert.
>
> I had always been uncomfortable with Palmer's Handbook pointing to birds
> such as this being adult females in late winter and spring. Unless someone
> can explain this, I must differ. I have spent a concerted amount of time
> this past winter studying RBMs at the western end of Lake Ontario to try
> and
> resolve the situation in my own mind. I have looked at birds in the field
> and have also examined a great many photos. I will leave wing pattern
> alone
> here as the bird's posture has the scapulars covering the tertials and
> secondaries. The combination of a red eye, black around the eye and the
> "two-part" shaggy head plumage indicate a male in its second calendar
> year.
> Two points to add as well : the literature indicates that young males are
> very slow to attain adult-type plumage in first cycle i.e. the second year
> of life, thus are female-like further into the New Year than perhaps any
> other species of diving duck with the possible exception of Common
> Merganser; I will have to check further to see if any adult females can
> show
> such a well-developed male-type crest as displayed by this bird. The
> National Geographic guide for example, does not seem to differentiate
> between the sexes in that respect.
>
> Kevin McLaughlin,
> Hamilton, Ontario.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert DeCandido PhD
> Sent: April-16-14 12:59 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Help with Red-breasted Merganser
>
> Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
> NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?
>
> http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1
>
> just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 14:54 pm
From: kam50 AT shaw.ca
 
Hi Robert.

I had always been uncomfortable with Palmer's Handbook pointing to birds
such as this being adult females in late winter and spring. Unless someone
can explain this, I must differ. I have spent a concerted amount of time
this past winter studying RBMs at the western end of Lake Ontario to try and
resolve the situation in my own mind. I have looked at birds in the field
and have also examined a great many photos. I will leave wing pattern alone
here as the bird's posture has the scapulars covering the tertials and
secondaries. The combination of a red eye, black around the eye and the
"two-part" shaggy head plumage indicate a male in its second calendar year.
Two points to add as well : the literature indicates that young males are
very slow to attain adult-type plumage in first cycle i.e. the second year
of life, thus are female-like further into the New Year than perhaps any
other species of diving duck with the possible exception of Common
Merganser; I will have to check further to see if any adult females can show
such a well-developed male-type crest as displayed by this bird. The
National Geographic guide for example, does not seem to differentiate
between the sexes in that respect.

Kevin McLaughlin,
Hamilton, Ontario.


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert DeCandido PhD
Sent: April-16-14 12:59 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Help with Red-breasted Merganser

Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.

Thanks!

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 12:21 pm
From: rdcny AT earthlink.net
 
Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.

Thanks!

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Kelp vs. Western
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 12:20 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Noah

Actually Kelp looks like an overgrown, thickset Lesser Black-backed Gull
save for the darker tail. They actually do not look like Western Gulls in
first cycle. I see Kelp Gulls pretty frequently, and have yet to come up
with anything that resembles one on the West Coast. I do think that it is a
bird that is very unlikely to be found on the West Coast vs. the East Coast
but I could be wrong.



Regards,



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Kelp vs. Western



I've been wondering about Kelp Gulls flying under the radar on the West
Coast lately. 1st-cycle Western and Kelp look so similar that it seems like
a young Kelp could easily go unnoticed, especially in the spring and summer
(which is winter for a Kelp Gull), when few people are out looking for
gulls. Does anyone know of good field marks for separating these two in
1st-cycle plumage?



Thanks!



Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: peep question
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 2:41 am
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Nick,

The small-billed peep is strange. Doesn't look like a Western to me, as the bill is quite short and very delicate at the tip. The plumage is definitely not typical of a Western on this date.

Dave Irons

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:57:39 +0000
From: nlethaby@TI.COM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] peep question
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU









All:

While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled ďMinature Western SandpiperĒ:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesnít look typical for a Semipalmated.

Nick Lethaby
office: +1 805 562 5106
mobile: +1 805 284 6200
e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 18:16 pm
From: drcolin.bradshaw AT btinternet.com
 
It's very difficult to judge from the photos but if I found this bird in the UK, I'd be jumping up and down with excitement thinking I'd found†dominica.

1. I can't see any EGP having white breast patches this size, I can't imagine many PGPs like this either.
2. The bird just looks too dainty for an EGP
3. The bill is too long for EGP
4. The flank colour [and perhaps even utcs] are a red herring as it hasn't moulted its underparts fully yet
5. The primaries look heavily abraded and my experience of 1st alt AGP is that they can look quite short winged

I suspect this is a moulting 1st alt AGP

cheers

Colin


________________________________
From: Harvey Tomlinson
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, 15 April 2014, 20:18
Subject: [BIRDWG01] European Golden Plover



Hi Birders,
This past Sept 2013 I
photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ .
I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home and did
some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
I posted the sighting
to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming confirmation of my
assessment.
But, an expert on
shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't take it any
further.
I was asked to send
photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos from the
Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined the
article†and decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote. It
would be a State record.
It seems the committee
held is bi-annual meeting†two Sunday's past, yet for reasons unbeknownst to
me it did not make their docket.
They were reviewing
reports for the later half of 2013.
I did not
send†this out to this list serve for opinions†so as not to cloud the
issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
There won't be another
committee†vote until next fall.
I am asking for
opinions now†only because†the committee didn't vote on
it.
Hybrid and PGPL have
been mentioned, although structure and under tail coverts speak against PGPL.
IMHO
I did report on the
under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
photo.
Leave it out of the
equation for now. I think there is enough information on the photos to make an
assessment even though the quality is only fair and full of
artifacts.
Thanks if you do
respond,
Harvey
Tomlinson
Del
Haven, NJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 17:23 pm
From: ktmullarney AT gmail.com
 
Hello Harvey,

It is difficult to be certain what species of golden plover you observed at
Brigantine on 3rd September 2013, but I feel pretty certain it is not a
European. The single most incompatible (with EGPL) feature clearly visible
in a couple of your photos is the large size of the spots, or notches on
some of the more intact scapulars and wing coverts, best shown in this
image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/.../" rel="nofollow">https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

In alternate (breeding) plumage these feathers are always more finely
patterned in EGPL than in either AGPL or PGPL, such that if you are close
enough to actually count the number of 'spots' on the visible portion of
the scapular feathers you can generally see eight or more spots in EGPL,
six or less in the other two species. Of course some feathers will be
partly concealed, and others will be more exposed than usual, but
the difference in the overall pattern can usually be rather easily
determined, even at long range.

Regards,

Killian Mullarney
Ireland


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Harvey Tomlinson wrote:

> Hi Birders,
>
> This past Sept 2013 I photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ.
> I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home and
> did some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
>
> I posted the sighting to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming
> confirmation of my assessment.
>
> But, an expert on shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't
> take it any further.
>
> I was asked to send photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos
> from the Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined
> the article and decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote.
> It would be a State record.
>
> It seems the committee held is bi-annual meeting two Sunday's past, yet
> for reasons unbeknownst to me it did not make their docket.
>
> They were reviewing reports for the later half of 2013.
>
> I did not send this out to this list serve for opinions so as not to cloud
> the issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
>
> There won't be another committee vote until next fall.
>
> I am asking for opinions now only because the committee didn't vote on it.
>
> Hybrid and PGPL have been mentioned, although structure and under tail
> coverts speak against PGPL. IMHO
>
> I did report on the under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
> photo.
>
> Leave it out of the equation for now. I think there is enough information
> on the photos to make an assessment even though the quality is only fair
> and full of artifacts.
>
> Thanks if you do respond,
>
> Harvey Tomlinson
>
> Del Haven, NJ
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673059685/in/set-72157633378691097
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: peep question
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 15:31 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
All:

While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled "Minature Western Sandpiper":

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesn't look typical for a Semipalmated.

Nick Lethaby
office: +1 805 562 5106
mobile: +1 805 284 6200
e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 15:31 pm
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
Harvey

Very difficult to make any meaningful deliberation with the available
images but my gut feeling would be that this is a PACIFIC rather than European
Golden Plover, although for an adult to be in such good plumage in September
is rather unusual for fulva, the greater percentage of Europeans also
heavily moulted by such a date. It appears to be quite small and long-legged in
some of the images, particularly compared with the Black-bellied Plover
alongside. A difficult one



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Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 14:51 pm
From: ShearH2Os AT aol.com
 

Hi Birders,
This past Sept 2013 I photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ.
I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home
and did some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
I posted the sighting to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming
confirmation of my assessment.
But, an expert on shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't
take it any further.
I was asked to send photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos
from the Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined
the article and decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote.
It would be a State record.
It seems the committee held is bi-annual meeting two Sunday's past, yet
for reasons unbeknownst to me it did not make their docket.
They were reviewing reports for the later half of 2013.
I did not send this out to this list serve for opinions so as not to cloud
the issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
There won't be another committee vote until next fall.
I am asking for opinions now only because the committee didn't vote on
it.
Hybrid and PGPL have been mentioned, although structure and under tail
coverts speak against PGPL. IMHO
I did report on the under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
photo.
Leave it out of the equation for now. I think there is enough information
on the photos to make an assessment even though the quality is only fair
and full of artifacts.
Thanks if you do respond,
Harvey Tomlinson
Del Haven, NJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

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Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 1:15 am
From: paul.r.wood AT uk.pwc.com
 

I will be out of the office from 14/04/2014 until 22/04/2014.

I will respond to your message when I return.




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Subject: ADMIN: BirdWG01 list problems
Date: Mon Apr 14 2014 13:02 pm
From: cotte AT ksu.edu
 
Good day BIRDWG01!

There are several announcements about the list. Please read and save for
future use.

Overnight 278 subscribers were removed from BIRDWG01 by the ListServ
computer because of onging issues with recent changes by Yahoo and the
way that they handle email (more on that in a second.) A few of you have
added yourselves back on, I just now added the rest of you back. The fact
that you are receiving this message indicates that you have been added back
to the BIRDWG01 list.

Problems with e-mail addresses from Yahoo are continuing today. Yahooīs
policy change last week is also causing problems that affect e-mail
addresses from other domains, such as Comcast, ATT, Hotmail, and MSN.
You can read a technical explanation of why this occurs at:

http://www.computerworld.com/s...
_policy_breaks_mailing_lists?pageNumber=1

Because the problem occurs _every time_ a message from a Yahoo.com
address is posted to the list, our mail administrators have advised us to set
all subscriptions with Yahoo.com to NOPOST. I am in the process of doing
this. I apologize for the inconvenience this will cause you. I realize
it is NOT your fault, Yahoo has caused this through their actions.

Other providers have "honored" Yahooīs policy although they have not set
the same restrictive policy; they should stop seeing rejections once we
remove the Yahoo posts. These include Comcast, ATT, MSN, and Hotmail.

If you have a Yahoo address, I encourage you to contact Yahoo.com support
and tell them "I have been inconvenienced because I am unable to
participate in Listserv mailing lists because of Yahoo's DMARC policy." I also
suggest that you may want to get a different e-mail provider for your listserv
subscriptions (and maybe for all your e-mail). While I cannot and do not
recommend any particular provider, I can inform you that two large providers
which have had no problems are Google (Gmail.com) and Apple
(iCloud.com, me.com, mac.com). There have also been no problems with
any .org, .gov, or .edu address as far as I know right now.

To repeat, if you are subscribed to the list with a Yahoo address your
subscription will be set to "nopost" - if you are a Yahoo
user, you will be able to read messages but not post to the list.

As always donīt hesitate to contact the list owners if you have questions, but
please be considerate at this busy time, and try to write us only if you have
tried to solve your problem first and gotten stuck. The address to write is:

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To manage your subscription, please use the following information

How to UNSUBSCRIBE:
To stop receiving list messages, send an e-mail with no subject AND no
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Again, the listowners regret that we have had to take this action but for the
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Chuck Otte
BIRDWG01 co-listowner

-----
Chuck Otte cotte@ksu.edu
County Extension Agent, Ag & Natural Resources
Geary County Extension Office, PO BOX 28 785-238-4161
Junction City, Kansas 66441-0028 FAX 785-238-7166
http://www.geary.ksu.edu/

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Subject: 1st year yellow-legged Gull or strange LBBG?
Date: Mon Apr 14 2014 8:10 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
All,

I would greatly appreciated if some of the Larus experts out there would be
willing to look at photos of the above mentioned gull and provide
comments. I think it might be a possible 1st year YLGU. It certainly
has some features that point towards LBBG but also lacks features also
pointing towards YLGU.

I tried to find similar aged LBBG and YLGU reliable photos on line of
the open wing but it proved to be difficult and inconclusive for the
most part. In fact most of the open wing shots I viewed indicate it is
indeed a YLGU. I was unable to get any standing shots of this bird
unfortunately .

This bird has solid dark wings, no light inner window on inner
primaries. Has no barring on the inner greater coverts often seen in
LBBG of this age. I believe an important id feature for LBBG. Also
little to no light edging to greater and medium coverts, another
typical LBBG feature. Does the lack of these field marks indicate
YLGU?

The tail is quite interesting. To me it seems to me to be very similar
to a young GBBG tail. I wonder if the tail is with in the range of
LBBG? After viewing photos on line and in Gulls of the World , the
extensive white in the tail and the spotting/wavy pattern indicate
more YLGU and not LBBG. It certainly seems to be in the range of
YLGU. The under tail coverts show the random chevrons as opposed to
barring, more like YLGU than LBBG?

The under wing is most curious since it does not seem to be typical of
either species. Although, this area appears to be quite ambiguous. You
can see some light baring or spotting but not strong by any means.

In photo 0086 you can see how the upper mandible curves down and the
fairly deep gonydeal angle more YLGU than LBBG.

Molt timing is probably important here but also seems all over the
place depending on sub-species. There does appear to be grayish
feathers coming in on mantle. I cropped in close on some photos to
show pattern on back and tail.

Here is the link - http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/l...
photos were taken at UMASS Lowell boathouse on Merrimac River.

Thank you in advance for any feed back.
Suzanne Sullivan
Wilmington MA
swampy435@gmail.com

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Subject: Kelp vs. Western
Date: Sun Apr 13 2014 22:38 pm
From: semirelicta AT yahoo.com
 
I've been wondering about Kelp Gulls flying under the radar on the West Coast lately. 1st-cycle Western and Kelp†look so similar that it seems like a young Kelp could easily go unnoticed, especially in the spring and summer (which is winter for a Kelp Gull), when few people are out looking for gulls. Does anyone know of good field marks for separating these two in 1st-cycle plumage?

Thanks!

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
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Subject: Salutations!
Date: Sun Apr 13 2014 3:41 am
From: knmharris AT bellsouth.net
 





http://live2.factum.ch/best-offer/choose.php?zmrkwnmcp1796ra

























Kristen and Mitchell Harris


-----------------------



Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:21:09

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Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 19:16 pm
From: p_adriaens AT yahoo.com
 
Hi Neil,


despite your misgivings about this bird's structure, and despite the two comments from America on your blog, this is still a Kamchatka Gull.

Kamtschatschensisis the largest and bulkiest taxon of Common/Mew Gull, and often has a bright pink bill base in its first winter, thus suggesting Ring-billed Gull. The structural features that you point out are still too subtle to use as true identification features, and fall within the variation of Kamchatka Gull. In fact, the long, sloping forehead favours kamtschatschensis.


Futher characters that point to Kamchatka Gull are the pattern of the underwing (dark brown lesser coverts, and extensive brown on axillaries), pattern of the median coverts on upper wing (brown vertical streaks, unlike the pointed, V-shaped anchor pattern in RB Gull), extensive brown spots on belly (more prominent than pattern on neck, while the reverse is usually true in Ring-billed), and the prominent white fringes on tertials.


Kind regards,
Peter

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:58 PM, Neil Davidson wrote:

I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
>I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
>range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
>these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
>billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
>corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
>billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
>kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
>I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-
>
>
>
>
>http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...
>
>
>
>The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
>as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
>can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
>rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
>masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
>but this is probably of little significance either way.
>
>
>
>So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
>very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
>deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
>look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
>such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
>from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
>common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
>projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
>narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
>appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
>conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
>along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
>contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
>long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
>it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
>I'm used to seeing.
>
>† †
>
>Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
>don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
>to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
>juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
>March.
>
>
>
>So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
>in knowing why I can rule it out.
>
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Neil Davidson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 16:53 pm
From: kratter AT flmnh.ufl.edu
 
Wayne et al.
There is a fourth possibility: the past few years Neotropic and Double-crested cormorants have had
mixed pairs in south Florida, and produced young. So a hybrid parental origin is not out of the
question. That should muddle things further. Sorry to throw out the "H" word.

Andy Kratter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 16:20 pm
From: whoffman AT peak.org
 
Hi -
I do not have a strong opinion on the the identity of this bird, but I
want to caution everyone that Double-crested Cormorants are among the North
American birds showing the most geographic variation in size, proportions,
and plumage (and several of the other most-variable birds may deserve
splitting - e.g., Cackling Goose, Hermit Thrush, Yellow Warbler). So, I
would be very careful applying information we know about molt timing,
details of feather shape etc. in one part of the species range to the whole
range. I see three viable hypotheses for the identity of this bird: 1)
it is a Neotropic Cormorant; 2) it is a fairly normal Double-crested
Cormorant vagrant from a distant population (e.g. Bahamas, S. Florida); and
3) it is an aberrant "local" Double-crested Cormorant. Distinguishing
between numbers 2 and 3 may be as difficult as between 1 and the others.

Wayne


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Peter Pyle wrote:

> The new photos allow a better assessment of age - it looks like a
> first-cycle bird (SY) undergoing the second prebasic molt. The tertials
> have been replaced (second basic) and contrast with an even panel of
> juvenal secondaries. It looks like inner primaries have also been replaced
> and molting, as would be expected with this pattern of tertial/secondary
> replacement. The wing coverts appear to be a combination of juvenal and
> incoming second basic, perhaps with some formative coverts as well. The
> head is undergoing molt and the older feathers may be a mixture of juvenal
> and formative.
>
> All of this equates better with Neotropic to me at this time of year.
> Double-crested (at least here in California) show much more bleached
> juvenal feathers now (including paler heads and breats) and are not this
> advanced in the second prebasic molt yet. If it wintered in NJ locally I
> would expect it to be only beginning the second prebasic now. Molt timing
> is more consistent with a bird that wintered farther south and began the
> molt in January or earlier, something that Neotropics do but not typically
> Double-cresteds.
>
> Regarding the shape of the back feathers an secondary coverts, juvenal
> feathers are similar between the two species (pointed). The more-pointed
> shape of Neotropical and more-rounded shape of Double-crested begins to be
> expressed in formative and second-basic feathers, and becomes fully
> advanced in definitive basic feathers. The newer second-basic feathers
> appear to look more pointed than the juvenal feathers, which could be
> another factor favoring Neotropic.
>
> Peter
>
>
> > When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall
> > impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me
> > strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller
> > and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I
> expect
> > for a NECO.
> >
> > Blake Mathys
> > ---------------------------------
> > http://blakemathys.com/
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
> > From: westwings@SISNA.COM
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this
> > bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon
> > the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or
> > how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very
> > good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being
> > common). Perhaps I should go take some.
> > With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday
> that
> > shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images.
> The
> > shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set
> > of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as
> the
> > identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this
> > bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> > Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d.
> > problem we face every winter here.
> > Mark
> >
> > Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas,
> > Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from
> > U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
> > CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 13:15 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
The new photos allow a better assessment of age - it looks like a
first-cycle bird (SY) undergoing the second prebasic molt. The tertials
have been replaced (second basic) and contrast with an even panel of
juvenal secondaries. It looks like inner primaries have also been replaced
and molting, as would be expected with this pattern of tertial/secondary
replacement. The wing coverts appear to be a combination of juvenal and
incoming second basic, perhaps with some formative coverts as well. The
head is undergoing molt and the older feathers may be a mixture of juvenal
and formative.

All of this equates better with Neotropic to me at this time of year.
Double-crested (at least here in California) show much more bleached
juvenal feathers now (including paler heads and breats) and are not this
advanced in the second prebasic molt yet. If it wintered in NJ locally I
would expect it to be only beginning the second prebasic now. Molt timing
is more consistent with a bird that wintered farther south and began the
molt in January or earlier, something that Neotropics do but not typically
Double-cresteds.

Regarding the shape of the back feathers an secondary coverts, juvenal
feathers are similar between the two species (pointed). The more-pointed
shape of Neotropical and more-rounded shape of Double-crested begins to be
expressed in formative and second-basic feathers, and becomes fully
advanced in definitive basic feathers. The newer second-basic feathers
appear to look more pointed than the juvenal feathers, which could be
another factor favoring Neotropic.

Peter


> When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall
> impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me
> strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller
> and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I expect
> for a NECO.
>
> Blake Mathys
> ---------------------------------
> http://blakemathys.com/
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
> From: westwings@SISNA.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this
> bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon
> the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or
> how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very
> good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being
> common). Perhaps I should go take some.
> With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that
> shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The
> shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set
> of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the
> identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this
> bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d.
> problem we face every winter here.
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas,
> Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from
> U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
> CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 11:45 am
From: blakemathys AT hotmail.com
 
When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I expect for a NECO.

Blake Mathys
---------------------------------
http://blakemathys.com/
---------------------------------


Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
From: westwings@SISNA.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being common). Perhaps I should go take some.
With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d. problem we face every winter here.
Mark

Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 9:17 am
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being common). Perhaps I should go take some.

With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d. problem we face every winter here.

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 10, 2014, at 5:50 AM, edboyd1959@comcast.net wrote:

> Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?
>
> Double-crest
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> NeoTrop
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.
>
> Ed Boyd
> Westminster, MD
>
> From: "Mark Stackhouse"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> lol, Tony.
>
> Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?
>
> Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> All:
>
> Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> Mark et al.:
>
> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>
> All:
>
> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>
> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>
> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>
> Peter
>
>
> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
> than other cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
> more carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>
> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 9:13 am
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
I looked quickly at these feather shape features in the initial shots and couldn't determine accurately whether they were more pointed or more rounded...some of the upper scaps seemed to appear pointed but the images left me doubtful that I was assessing these correctly.
I don't have a good grasp on these two species, but one picture seems to show a long, wedge-shaped tail, so wouldn't that be the feature to focus on before subtleties of back feather shape. Is that tail too long for a DCC??†

Julian

Julian Hough
New Haven, CT 06519
www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com


________________________________
From: "edboyd1959 AT COMCAST.NET"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey



Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?

Double-crest
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
NeoTrop
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.

Ed Boyd
Westminster, MD

________________________________

From: "Mark Stackhouse"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from †U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:

All:
>
>
>Two points in my previous post. †"Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. †Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
>
>Tony
>
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Bad Axe, MI
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
>
>
>Mark et al.:
>>
>>
>>I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... †Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>>
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>
>>Tony Leukering
>>currently Bad Axe, MI
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>>
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>>
>>>What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>>
>>>How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>>
>>>Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>Mark Stackhouse
>>>mark@westwings.com
>>>from Mexico:
>>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>>from †U.S.
>>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>All:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Nick
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>>>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>>>
>>>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>>>
>>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>>>
>>>It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>>>
>>>my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>>>
>>>Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>>>
>>>rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>>>
>>>greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>>>
>>>conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>>>
>>>Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>>>
>>>can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>>>
>>>acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>>>
>>>would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>>>
>>>some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>>>
>>>sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>>>
>>>and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>>>
>>>lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>>>
>>>completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>>>
>>>the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>>>
>>>tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>>>
>>>the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>>>
>>>the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>>>
>>>(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>>>
>>>than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>>>
>>>appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>>>
>>>reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>>>
>>>Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>>>
>>>the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>>>
>>>DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>>>
>>>examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>>>
>>>hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>>>
>>>range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>>>
>>>more carefully.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Mark Stackhouse
>>>>>
>>>mark@westwings.com
>>>>>
>>>from Mexico:
>>>>>
>>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>>>
>>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from †U.S.
>>>>>
>>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>>>
>>>1-801-518-5618
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>>>
>>>birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>>>
>>>One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>>>
>>>was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>>>
>>>research showed it to be otherwise. †The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>>>
>>>bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Paul Lehman, †San Diego
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 7:22 am
From: edboyd1959 AT comcast.net
 
Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?

Double-crest
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
NeoTrop
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.

Ed Boyd
Westminster, MD

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Stackhouse"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:




All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering < greatgrayowl@aol.com > wrote:




Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective ( http://cfobirds.org/downloads/... ). Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse < westwings@SISNA.COM > wrote:




Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:



All:









Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.









Thanks,









Nick









-----Original Message-----




From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [ mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle




Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM




To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU




Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey









It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.









Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:




https://www.flickr.com/photos/...




It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.









Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.









Peter
















I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that








my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,








Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the








rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a








greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some








conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.








Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

















Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I








can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems








acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one








would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

















Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in








some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for








sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

















Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered








and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the








lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show








completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

















Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of








the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole








tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

















General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and








the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of








the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"








(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller








than other cormorants in the area.

















Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers








appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how








reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.








Perhaps others could comment on this.

















On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,








the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with








DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful








examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

















Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to








hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the








range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here








more carefully.


























Mark Stackhouse








mark@westwings.com








from Mexico:








01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)








001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.








011-52-323-285-1243 or








1-801-518-5618












































On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:




















































































There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young












birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.












One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and












was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further












research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ












bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

























Paul Lehman, San Diego



















































Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



















Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html




















Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html









Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html






Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 20:11 pm
From: glaucidium AT yahoo.com
 
It seems to me that the focus and discussion so far has been on the anterior portions of the bird, while the second and eighth photo seem to clearly (well, not so "clearly" in the second photo, but still obviously) show a cormorant with a tail that is too long to be a Double-crested's. 

When added to the facial features, which are not at all incongruous with those of a Neotropic Cormorant, it seems more of a stretch to try and turn this bird into a Double-crested, at least to me.

 
Cheers
CJV
Cape May, NJ


On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:42 PM, "Lethaby, Nick" wrote:

I would second Mark’s point here. It seems like if the Farallons bird was just a DCCO, then several of the field marks are NOT reliable, at least for some period of juvenile plumage.
 
From:NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:00 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
 
lol, Tony.
 
Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?
 
Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?
 
Mark
 
Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from  U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618
 


 
On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:


All:
 
Two points in my previous post.  "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check.  Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
 
Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
Mark et al.:
> 
>I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/....  Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Bad Axe, MI
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>
>>What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>
>>How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>
>>Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>Mark Stackhouse
>>mark@westwings.com
>>from Mexico:
>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>from  U.S.
>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>All:
>> 
>>Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>> 
>>Thanks,
>> 
>>Nick
>> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>> 
>>It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>> 
>>Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>> 
>>Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>> 
>>Peter
>> 
>> 
>>I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>> 
>>Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>> 
>>Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>> 
>>Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>> 
>>Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>> 
>>General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>than other cormorants in the area.
>> 
>>Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>Perhaps others could comment on this.
>> 
>>On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>> 
>>Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>more carefully.
>> 
>> 
>>Mark Stackhouse
>>mark@westwings.com
>>from Mexico:
>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from  U.S.
>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>1-801-518-5618
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>research showed it to be otherwise.  The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>> 
>>Paul Lehman,  San Diego
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 18:46 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
I would second Mark's point here. It seems like if the Farallons bird was just a DCCO, then several of the field marks are NOT reliable, at least for some period of juvenile plumage.

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:00 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:


All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:


All:

Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.

Thanks,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
than other cormorants in the area.

Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
Perhaps others could comment on this.

On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
more carefully.


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:






There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

Paul Lehman, San Diego



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 18:11 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:

> All:
>
> Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
>> Mark et al.:
>>
>> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> Tony Leukering
>> currently Bad Axe, MI
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>>
>>> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>>
>>> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>>
>>> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>> from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>>
>>>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>>
>>>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>>
>>>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>>
>>>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>>> more carefully.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>>>> mark@westwings.com
>>>>> from Mexico:
>>>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 16:26 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> Mark et al.:
>
> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>
>> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>
>> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>
>> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark Stackhouse
>> mark@westwings.com
>> from Mexico:
>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>> from U.S.
>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>> 1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>
>>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>
>>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>
>>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>
>>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>
>>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>
>>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>
>>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>
>>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>
>>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>
>>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>> more carefully.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>>> mark@westwings.com
>>>> from Mexico:
>>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 16:16 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>
>> All:
>>
>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>
>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>
>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>
>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>
>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>
>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>
>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>
>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>
>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>
>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>
>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>
>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>> more carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 15:39 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Additional discussion on the Farallon bird is here:
http://californiabirds.org/11r...
Peter

> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing,
> since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after
> looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a
> NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of
> the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird
> is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too
> rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most
> commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the
> color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow
> supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly
> acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for
> DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d.
> Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>
>> All:
>>
>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not
>> a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id
>> problem than I previously realized.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>
>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced
>> back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like
>> this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as
>> first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>
>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the
>> observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it
>> was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>
>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the
>> Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field
>>> marks are most important.
>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>
>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better
>>> view of this.
>>>
>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult
>>> winter) plumage?
>>>
>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>
>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>
>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>
>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed
>>> photos.
>>>
>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>> more carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a
>>>> Neotropic.
>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 15:04 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:

> All:
>
> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>
> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>
> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>
> Peter
>
>
>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>
>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>
>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>
>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>
>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>
>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>
>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>
>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>
>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>> more carefully.
>>
>>
>> Mark Stackhouse
>> mark@westwings.com
>> from Mexico:
>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>> 1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>
>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 14:31 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
All:

Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.

Thanks,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
> than other cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
> more carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>
>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:56 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced
back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like
this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as
first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the
observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it
was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the
Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that my
> reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico), I
> would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the rare species
> here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a greater
> scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some conflicting marks,
> and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I can't
> see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems acute to me,
> too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one would like for a
> state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in some
> it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for sure, as the
> lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered and
> black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the lores, but
> is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show completely black,
> feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of the
> photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole tail
> extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and the
> shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of the
> hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed" (perhaps
> it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller than other
> cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers appear
> wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how reliable or what
> range of variation is possible in this character. Perhaps others could
> comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO, the
> color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with DCCO,
> but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful examination
> of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to hear
> the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the range of
> variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here more
> carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>
>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:01 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important. Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed" (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller than other cormorants in the area.

Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character. Perhaps others could comment on this.

On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO, the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here more carefully.


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic. One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>
> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:00 pm
From: semirelicta AT yahoo.com
 
This isn't an ID I've studied too extensively (although I did have a candidate here in CA a couple years ago), but to me I don't see any reason to question this bird as a Neotropic Cormorant. Its tail is almost as big as it! I really can't imagine a Double-crested with a tail like that. The short bill and white border around the†pointed gular pouch all look spot on for Neotropic as well.

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 12:14 pm
From: amarayyash AT yahoo.com
 
Neil, I think there are enough oddities about this gull to steer the ID away from 1st cycle RIng-billed.
Structurally, I'm sure we can come up with Ring-billeds that appear longer-legged like this bird with a flat head. And some of the chevron-like scaling on the side of the neck and parts of the breast can also be matched by Ring-billed, but I agree with most of your suspicions which I've summarized below:

1) The inner primaries show solid, brown,†outer webs, while the inner webs are clean and pale.

With Ring-billed, the inner primaries are typically pale, with some silvery-gray pigmentation. The dark pigmenation is more black than brown, and is usually most prominent along the shafts of the inner primaries.†Although faded Ring-billeds may show brownish tones to the remiges, it's not as uniform and neat as your gull. Here are some examples of typical inner primary patterns on 1st winter Ring-billeds:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 7:08 AM, Neil Davidson wrote:

I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-




http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...



The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
but this is probably of little significance either way.



So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
I'm used to seeing.



Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
March.



So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
in knowing why I can rule it out.



Thanks in advance,

Neil Davidson













Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


http://gull-research.org/delaw...

2) The underwing coverts are uniformly dark.

Most 1st cycle Ring-billeds show pale underwing linings, with the greater primary coverts being the palest. Given this is a mid-March bird, I'd expect the underwings to be mostly white by now, like this:
http://gull-research.org/delaw...

3) The tertial edges†have thick,†pale edges up to the bases of these feathers.

This is odd seeing the tertial edges are considerably worn. With 1st cycle Ring-billeds, thick pale edges on the tertials correspond with feathers in crisp condition (as with a number of other species, usually earlier in the season). As the feathers wear, the pale fringes become much less uniform and visible. That's not the case with this bird.


Best,

Amar Ayyash
Frankfort IL, USA
http://www.anythinglarus.com/
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 8:31 am
From: lehman.paul1 AT verizon.net
 





There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

Paul Lehman, San Diego




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 0:19 am
From: g_g_allin AT hotmail.com
 
Rob Fergus is looking for comments on a possible Neotropic Cormorant. He writes:

"Possible Neotropic Cormorant
observed in a tree at dusk in NJ. In life noted small size, dark
lores, sharp v-shaped gular pouch, long wedge-shaped tail, dark
underparts. Comments appreciated. Photos on Flickr at https://flic.kr/p/mVhviz."

If you have any comments, cc him at birdchaser@hotmail.com.

Thanks,
John Puschock

Seattle, WA

g_g_allin@hotmail.com
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Tue Apr 8 2014 6:55 am
From: neilcd21 AT hotmail.com
 
I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-




http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...



The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
but this is probably of little significance either way.



So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
I'm used to seeing.



Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
March.



So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
in knowing why I can rule it out.



Thanks in advance,

Neil Davidson













Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Hummingbird, Delaware, USA
Date: Mon Apr 7 2014 18:13 pm
From: tedfloyd57 AT hotmail.com
 
Hello, Birders.
Here's a photo of, and discussion about, an interesting hummingbird from Delaware a little while back:
http://blog.aba.org/2014/04/ma...
Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder, County, USA
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Black-eared vs Black (Pariah) Kite - Identification
Date: Mon Apr 7 2014 17:19 pm
From: rdcny AT earthlink.net
 
Anyone interested in distinguishing between the two Asian subspecies of the
Black Kite...the Black-eared Milvus migrans lineatus and the Black (Pariah)
Kite M.m. govinda can access this free publication by DeCandido et al:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5mu...

Flight identification of Milvus migrans lineatus ĎBlack-earedí Kite and
Milvus migrans govinda ĎPariahí Kite in Nepal and Thailand

Authors are Robert DeCandido (NYC), Tulsi Subedi (Nepal), Martti Siponen
(Finland), Kaset Sutasha DVM (Thailand), Andrew Pierce (UK and Thailand),
Chukiat Nualsri (Thailand) & Philip D. Round (UK and Thailand).

Research for the article was done primarily at the Khao Dinsor raptor
migration site in Thailand and the Thoolakharka raptor watch site in Nepal.

Robert DeCandido PhD

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Estrilda waxbills in Northern Tanzania
Date: Sun Apr 6 2014 17:34 pm
From: jmorlan AT gmail.com
 
We assumed these were female Black-cheeked Waxbills (Estrilda erythronotos
delamerei) based on range. However one of East Africa's better known
authorities has suggested that these are actually the first documented
records of Red-rumped Waxbill (Estrilda charmosyna kiwanukae) for Tanzania.
http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/T...

http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/T...

Above I follow Clements for English names, but these species are locally
(e.g. IOC) known as Black-faced Waxbill (Estrilda erythronotos delamerei)
and Black-cheeked Waxbill (Estrilda charmosyna kiwanukae) respectively.
They reportedly closely resemble E. c. kiwanukae but I'd like to get more
confirmation before submitting them to the East Africa Rarities Committee.

Can anybody confirm which species they are?

Thanks in advance.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: The problem of sampling colour from digital images
Date: Mon Mar 31 2014 14:33 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi,



This kind of thing regularly comes up in ID discussions. For instance gull
enthusiasts may be interested in trying to match gull images against Kodak
grey scales. Sampling colour in digital images however can be problematic.
Even if a patch of colour on a feather looks to be totally uniform in 100
crop, when you zoom in to the pixel level you will quickly discover that the
pixels are not uniform at all, but may consist of a combination of different
hues, a gradient of tones and the the odd artefact pixel thrown in for good
measures (noise, jpeg compression artefacts etc). Sampling colour based on
one pixel at a time in the middle of this complex mess can be frustrating
and hit and miss.



Well I have come up with a useful way to flatten colour patches, making it
easy to sample the colour. Crucially, this takes the guesswork and
subjectivity out of the problem.

One more useful tool for the ID toolbox.



For more details please visit



http://birdingimagequalitytool...



or more specifically



http://birdingimagequalitytool...



and



http://birdingimagequalitytool...



Regards



Mike O'Keeffe

Ireland


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Slaty-backed structure observations
Date: Fri Mar 28 2014 12:58 pm
From: paul.j.hurtado AT gmail.com
 
This should be incredibly easy to measure on museum specimens, if any exist
in nearby collections. :-)

http://ornis2.ornisnet.org/sea...

-Paul Hurtado


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Noah Arthur wrote:

> Hi everyone.
>
> I've often read that Slaties are supposed to be "pot-bellied and
> short-legged". This certainly seems to be true on some individuals, but
> decidedly not on others. In fact, many of the first-cycle Slaties on the
> Japanese gull website look downright long-legged and skinny! At the same
> time, I've noticed that when perched, the flank feathers of Slaties
> often seem to cover up a lot of the folded wing (more than on other
> similar gulls).
>
> Could it be that Slaty-backs aren't structurally pot-bellied or
> short-legged, but that their *belly and flank feathers are longer *than
> they are in other gulls? This could explain why their flank feathers cover
> up so much of the folded wing, and why they can look very pot-bellied
> (belly feathers fluffed) or rather slim (belly feathers sleeked down).
>
> Some fat-looking Slaties:
> http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgu...
> Some skinny-looking Slaties:
> http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgu...
> Adult showing long flank feathers:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7...
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...




--
Paul J. Hurtado
Postdoctoral Fellow, The Ohio State University
Mathematical Biosciences Institute, http://mbi.osu.edu/
Aquatic Ecology Laboratory, http://ael.osu.edu/

E-mail: hurtado.10@mbi.osu.edu
Webpage: http://people.mbi.ohio-state.e...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?
Date: Wed Mar 26 2014 3:06 am
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Jeremy,
In addition to the points made by Clive Harris about the longer neck, large size, bill shape and head shape, (which point away from this bird being a Ridgway's), I think these images safely eliminate Lesser Canada, which has a thinner, less triangular bill that usually shows a slight droop at the tip.
Here are a couple of other things to note that point to this bird being a Taverner's Cackling Goose.
One good structural clue is tail length. Tavs have fairly long tails and on the ground the tail often extends beyond the tip of the wings (very posture dependent). At the very least the tail appears to extend even with the wingtips. When Ridgway's Cackling Geese are on the ground the tail is typically well hidden by the wings, which usually appear to extend beyond the tip of the tail. When Ridgway's and Taverner's fly over in mixed flocks, Tavs are of course noticeably larger and they usually look longer tailed in comparison to the smaller and comparatively short-tailed Ridgway's, something Steve Mlodinow pointed out to me several years ago.
The pale creamy breast color on this bird is fairly typical of Taverner's in my opinion. Tavs lack the darker, glossy breasted look that is usually evident on Ridgway's (particular the adults). Further, I think that the best thing to look at is the detail in the mantle, scapulars, and covert feathers. Although a bit variable, on a Taverner's these feathers tend to look fairly uniform brown with little if any color change between the base of the feather and the narrow buffy edges. Conversely, Ridgway's show more pattern in these feathers. Basally, the individual feathers tend to be more grayish and then they darken subterminally and then show broader more whitish tips than Taverner's. The darker subterminal section of each feather tends to contrast quite a bit with the broad pale edges, creating the more "frosted" look of Ridgway's. This comparison is best made on adult birds and not so obvious on first-winter birds.
Note that at this season you can often age Cackling Geese by the presence or absence of obvious molt. I spent about an hour photographing a mixed flock of minima and taverneri last weekend, specifically looking for birds that showed signs of molt. All of the molting birds that I saw were AHY (first-winter). The body molt that I observed was mostly confined to the belly, lower breast and flanks, with larger and darker new feathers growing in and small, rounded and scaly-looking juvenile feathers still present where the new feathers had yet to grow in. I found no adults (ASY) that showed signs of molt. Discussions with Peter Pyle and others suggest that the preformative molt in AHY birds is protracted, with much of it occurring on the wintering grounds, whereas I have not noticed any midwinter molt happening in (ASY) birds, which have presumably completed or mostly completed their prebasic molt before migrating.
Looking at Clive's photos of the Taverner's in Washington D.C., I see several birds that show active molt on the underparts. There are two photos that provide a nice illustration of how you can separate AHY and ASY birds in late winter/early spring.
CAGO_Feb11_12 -- There are four birds in this image. The bird on the front left is ASY. I cannot age the mostly obscured bird second from the left. The third bird from the left is AHY (first winter) and the righthand most bird is ASY. Note that neither of the ASY birds show obvious evidence of molt on the underparts, while the AHY bird is clearly molting in new feathers along the flanks. If you compare the mantle, scapular, and coverts feathers of the AHY bird with the ASY birds, you should be able to see a difference in both the size and shape of these feathers, which are smaller and more rounded in the AHY bird and larger and more square-tipped in the ASY birds. Also look at the paler belly feathers on the AHY and note how small and rounded they are. These are retained juvenile feathers that create a very scaly look to the underparts.
CAGO_Feb11_3 -- This group is comprised of mostly adults (ASY), but the bird front and center and probably the bird behind it are AHY. This shot really illustrates the difference in size and shape (smaller and rounded at the tip) of the mantle, scap, and coverts and how this creates a scaly look. Again, note the difference in size and shape of the retained juvenile feathers on the underparts compared to the larger dark feathers coming in along the flanks.
Dave IronsPortland, OR


Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:15:29 -0700
From: clivegharris@YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

Jeremy It looks like a Taverner's Cackling Goose to me based on the rather deep triangular bill and rounded head shape. I'm based in Maryland so am not very familiar with the full range of minima but it looks a bit too long-necked/pale/large for that and a better fit for taverneri. I believe Lesser Canada would show a thinner longer bill and a more angular head shape. Of course intermediate birds have been documented but this looks to be what I understand is regarded as a solid taverneri. Last month I found a group of 8 small white-cheeked geese in Washington DC that were clearly not the expected Richardson's and after some research I felt they were Taverner's, an ID which was supported by Steve
Mlodinow. Pictures of those birds, which look very similar to yours, are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2... Regards Clive HarrisCabin John, MD
From: jeremy gatten

To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:00 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?





Hi all,
I live on southern Vancouver Island in British Columbia and we regularly get an interesting assortment of geese from fall through spring. In the winter, we have groups of minima Cackling Geese, occidentalis Canada Geese (Dusky Canadas), and our introduced resident Canada Geese that are seemingly have a muddled ancestry. After that, I personally am a little unclear as to what we have when it comes to the parvipes Canada Geese (Lesser Canada) and taverneri Cackling Geese (Taverner's Cackling. I have seen blue-collared geese in Sooke (~25-30 km west of Victoria) during fall migration and those would be Lesser Canada Geese from what I understand. After that, I'm just not sure whether we regularly get overwintering Lesser Canadas or whether we have Taverner's Cacklers stopping in or staying, period.
On March 22, 2014, I went to Royal
Roads University and there was a nice mixed group of all the expected B. h./c. taxa for here, plus one that I wasn't sure about. It was with a group mostly made up of Dusky Canada Geese, and it was noticeably smaller than them. The chest was quite pale and there is some funky mottling at the transition from the black neck to the tan upper chest. The bill is pretty small and I think it suggests Cackling, but I don't have the experience to determine whether it is daintiest Canada bill or a more-robust-than-minima Cackling bill. The other option I will throw out there is perhaps this is just a very bulky minima. I don't exactly think it's a very strong option, but I just don't know the full range of variation and perhaps I am just identifying the most miniature, obvious minima Cacklers.
I have put up some five photos on my Flickr account and I will link them
separately as they are not in sequence in my Photostream:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Hopefully those links work. I know there is a lot of literature on this, but it is still a lot of work to try to decode this without knowing if you're interpreting everything correctly. If you have experience and can lend your expertise, I would be most grateful!
Thanks,
Jeremy GattenSaanichton, BC, Canada
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?
Date: Tue Mar 25 2014 21:09 pm
From: clivegharris AT yahoo.com
 
Jeremy

It looks like a Taverner's Cackling Goose to me based on the rather deep triangular bill and rounded head shape.† I'm based in Maryland so am not very familiar with the full range of minima but it looks a bit too long-necked/pale/large for that and a better fit for taverneri. I believe Lesser Canada would show a thinner longer bill and a more angular head shape.† Of course intermediate birds have been documented but this looks to be what I understand is regarded as a solid taverneri.

Last month†I†found a group of 8 small white-cheeked geese in Washington DC that were clearly not the expected Richardson's and after some research I felt they were Taverner's, an ID which was supported by Steve Mlodinow.† Pictures of those birds, which look very similar to yours, are here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2...

Regards

Clive Harris
Cabin John, MD


________________________________
From: jeremy gatten
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:00 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?




Hi all,

I live on southern Vancouver Island in British Columbia and we regularly get an interesting assortment of geese from fall through spring. †In the winter, we have groups of minima Cackling Geese, occidentalis Canada Geese (Dusky Canadas), and our introduced resident Canada Geese that are seemingly have a muddled ancestry. †After that, I personally am a little unclear as to what we have when it comes to the parvipes Canada Geese (Lesser Canada) andtaverneri Cackling Geese (Taverner's Cackling. †I have seen blue-collared geese in Sooke (~25-30 km west of Victoria) during fall migration and those would be Lesser Canada Geese from what I understand. †After that, I'm just not sure whether we regularly get overwintering Lesser Canadas or whether we have Taverner's Cacklers stopping in or staying, period.

On March 22, 2014, I went to Royal Roads University and there was a nice mixed group of all the expected B. h./c. taxa for here, plus one that I wasn't sure about. †It was with a group mostly made up of Dusky Canada Geese, and it was noticeably smaller than them. †The chest was quite pale and there is some funky mottling at the transition from the black neck to the tan upper chest. †The bill is pretty small and I think it suggests Cackling, but I don't have the experience to determine whether it is daintiest Canada bill or a more-robust-than-minima Cackling bill. †The other option I will throw out there is perhaps this is just a very bulky minima. †I don't exactly think it's a very strong option, but I just don't know the full range of variation and perhaps I am just identifying the most miniature, obvious minima Cacklers.

I have put up some five photos on my Flickr account and I will link them separately as they are not in sequence in my Photostream:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Hopefully those links work. †I know there is a lot of literature on this, but it is still a lot of work to try to decode this without knowing if you're interpreting everything correctly. †If you have experience and can lend your expertise, I would be most grateful!

Thanks,
Jeremy Gatten
Saanichton, BC, Canada
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Which Side of the Line: Lesser Canada or Taverner's Cackling?
Date: Tue Mar 25 2014 18:58 pm
From: jarofme AT hotmail.com
 
Hi all,
I live on southern Vancouver Island in British Columbia and we regularly get an interesting assortment of geese from fall through spring. In the winter, we have groups of minima Cackling Geese, occidentalis Canada Geese (Dusky Canadas), and our introduced resident Canada Geese that are seemingly have a muddled ancestry. After that, I personally am a little unclear as to what we have when it comes to the parvipes Canada Geese (Lesser Canada) and taverneri Cackling Geese (Taverner's Cackling. I have seen blue-collared geese in Sooke (~25-30 km west of Victoria) during fall migration and those would be Lesser Canada Geese from what I understand. After that, I'm just not sure whether we regularly get overwintering Lesser Canadas or whether we have Taverner's Cacklers stopping in or staying, period.
On March 22, 2014, I went to Royal Roads University and there was a nice mixed group of all the expected B. h./c. taxa for here, plus one that I wasn't sure about. It was with a group mostly made up of Dusky Canada Geese, and it was noticeably smaller than them. The chest was quite pale and there is some funky mottling at the transition from the black neck to the tan upper chest. The bill is pretty small and I think it suggests Cackling, but I don't have the experience to determine whether it is daintiest Canada bill or a more-robust-than-minima Cackling bill. The other option I will throw out there is perhaps this is just a very bulky minima. I don't exactly think it's a very strong option, but I just don't know the full range of variation and perhaps I am just identifying the most miniature, obvious minima Cacklers.
I have put up some five photos on my Flickr account and I will link them separately as they are not in sequence in my Photostream:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Hopefully those links work. I know there is a lot of literature on this, but it is still a lot of work to try to decode this without knowing if you're interpreting everything correctly. If you have experience and can lend your expertise, I would be most grateful!
Thanks,
Jeremy GattenSaanichton, BC, Canada
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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