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Updated on December 17, 2014, 1:55 pm

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17 Dec: @ 13:50:24 Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Chuck Sexton]
17 Dec: @ 07:41:18 Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan]
17 Dec: @ 06:00:14 Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Michael Price]
16 Dec: @ 22:49:11 Re: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction) [Jeff Gilligan]
16 Dec: @ 22:14:27  Fw: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Alan Wormington]
16 Dec: @ 22:10:57  Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America [Jeff Gilligan]
15 Dec: @ 21:11:46  Labs that will do bird DNA analysis? [Noah Arthur]
14 Dec: @ 14:32:31  Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential [Lee G R Evans]
11 Dec: @ 17:39:57 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Spahr, Timothy]
11 Dec: @ 15:39:45 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Mike O'Keeffe]
11 Dec: @ 14:10:23 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels]
11 Dec: @ 13:43:25 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels]
11 Dec: @ 13:41:51 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Peter Pyle]
11 Dec: @ 12:38:28 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Lethaby, Nick]
11 Dec: @ 12:36:04 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Lethaby, Nick]
11 Dec: @ 12:34:51 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels]
11 Dec: @ 12:34:51 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan]
11 Dec: @ 12:34:26 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels]
11 Dec: @ 09:12:33 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan]
11 Dec: @ 09:11:42 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Suzanne Sullivan]
10 Dec: @ 21:08:44 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Larry Paul Gorbet]
10 Dec: @ 18:16:54 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tim Janzen]
10 Dec: @ 18:10:59 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Tony Leukering]
10 Dec: @ 18:10:47 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn]
10 Dec: @ 18:10:10 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Leith McKenzie]
10 Dec: @ 17:35:45 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [Gary Nunn]
10 Dec: @ 16:10:59 Re: Nova Scotia Empid [David Irons]
10 Dec: @ 15:49:57  Nova Scotia Empid [Avery Bartels]
02 Dec: @ 13:19:34 Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering]
02 Dec: @ 13:19:11 Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie]
02 Dec: @ 13:17:10 Re: Buteo [Tony Leukering]
02 Dec: @ 12:19:07 Re: Buteo [Leith McKenzie]
29 Nov: @ 23:29:07  Haemorhous finch ID [Derek Hill]
28 Nov: @ 19:07:15  Buteo [Leith McKenzie]
26 Nov: @ 14:26:45 Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Chris Corben]
26 Nov: @ 13:30:09  DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Noah Arthur]
25 Nov: @ 12:24:24  Gull for DNA Sequencing [Noah Arthur]
24 Nov: @ 12:38:53  Haemorhous finch ID [Kurt Radamaker]
24 Nov: @ 07:17:40 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Laurent Raty]
24 Nov: @ 04:32:37 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Vaughan, Robert]
23 Nov: @ 18:04:20 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Mike O'Keeffe]
21 Nov: @ 18:15:39 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Mike O'Keeffe]
21 Nov: @ 15:10:23 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle]
21 Nov: @ 08:08:29 Re: Skylark names [Robert O'Brien]
21 Nov: @ 04:23:25 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Lee G R Evans]
21 Nov: @ 00:57:33  Skylark names [DPratt14]
20 Nov: @ 17:59:09  Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle]
19 Nov: @ 23:23:55  FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f [grlazaro]
19 Nov: @ 22:36:56 Re: Another Goldeneye [Tony leukering]
19 Nov: @ 21:48:17 Re: Another Goldeneye [Peter Pyle]



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Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
Date: Wed Dec 17 2014 13:50 pm
From: gcwarbler AT austin.rr.com
 
Evidence of migratory patterns might be more properly termed “non-negative” information, in the sense that IF a stray like a Red-breasted Goose or other waterfowl did NOT exhibit an expected migratory pattern/timing, it would properly be considered suspect.  If such a stray exhibits something resembling appropriate seasonality of geographic movement, multiple explanations are available including but not limited to wild origin, flock association/adhesion, etc.

Chuck Sexton
Austin, TX

> On Dec 17, 2014, at 7:09 AM, Jeff Gilligan wrote:

> I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the least important part of any evidence to be considered.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
Date: Wed Dec 17 2014 7:41 am
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 
Thanks Michael

I think the arrival and departure schedule of the Red-breasted Geese is the least important part of any evidence to be considered.

Incidentally, I mis-spelled the name of the eastern Siberian Island. It is spelled "Wrangel", not to be confused with "Wrangell" Island, Alaska.


Jeff Gilligan



On Dec 17, 2014, at 4:17 AM, Michael Price wrote:

> Hi All
>
> Jeff Gilligan writes:
>
> So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley Park Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a migrant flock of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions from Alaska to northern California.
>
> I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed.
>
> So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not necessarily establish authenticity.
>
> best wishes
> m
>
> Michael Price
> Vancouver BC Canada
> loblollyboy@gmail.com
>
> Every answer deepens the mystery.
> -- E.O. Wilson
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan wrote:
> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic - the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic.
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan wrote:
>
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.
> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.
> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia include:
> >
> > 1. A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
> >
> > 2. That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant geese.
> >
> > 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific Northwest come from.
> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific States.
> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the USA.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
Date: Wed Dec 17 2014 6:00 am
From: loblollyboy AT gmail.com
 
Hi All

Jeff Gilligan writes:

So did the the escaped Northern Flamingo which escaped from the Stanley
Park Zoo in Vancouver BC in the mid-1980's, which allied itself with a
migrant flock of CAGO and for the next several years caused conniptions
from Alaska to northern California.

I saw the damn thing myself one freezingly cold January day on the far side
of Boundary Bay. I thought why would anyone want to stick a garden pink
flamingo way the hell out on the mudflat? And then it started to feed.

So, and let me stress I have no horse in this race, association does not
necessarily establish authenticity.

best wishes
m

Michael Price
Vancouver BC Canada
loblollyboy@gmail.com

Every answer deepens the mystery.
-- E.O. Wilson



On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Jeff Gilligan
wrote:
>
> I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian
> Arctic - the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic.
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often
> Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.
> >
> >
> > The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted
> Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley.
> Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The
> presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.
> >
> > Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from
> Asia include:
> >
> > 1. A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the
> 1800s.
> >
> > 2. That neither bird has been banded.
> >
> > 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal
> migrant geese.
> >
> > 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern
> Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the
> Pacific Northwest come from.
> >
> >
> > There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the
> Pacific States.
> >
> >
> > My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific
> States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances.
> Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be
> escapees elsewhere in the USA.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Gilligan
> > Portland
> >
> >
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America (correction)
Date: Tue Dec 16 2014 22:49 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 
I should have written that Wrangle Island is in the "eastern" Russian Arctic -   the area closer to Alaska than the western Russian Arctic.



On Dec 16, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Jeff Gilligan wrote:

>
> The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.
>
>
> The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.
>
> Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia include:
>
> 1. A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.
>
> 2. That neither bird has been banded.
>
> 3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant geese.
>
> 4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (eastern Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific Northwest come from.
>
>
> There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific States.
>
>
> My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the USA.
>
>
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland
>
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
Date: Tue Dec 16 2014 22:14 pm
From: wormington AT juno.com
 
I do not know the specific details, but decades ago (1950s?) a Red-breasted Goose was shot on southern James Bay in northern Ontario.  The bird was banded, and later it was determined that the bird had escaped from a zoo on the U.S. Atlantic Coast (maybe New Jersey?).

Just think if the bird had not been banded! There would have been endless theories proposed on why the bird was probably "wild" because it was in such a remote area of the continent, and associating with other geese that were headed to the Arctic for breeding.

Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario




---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Jeff Gilligan
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:28:14 -0700

The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.


The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.

Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia include:

1. A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2. That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant geese.

4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific Northwest come from.


There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific States.


My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the USA.


Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Sightings of Red-breasted Goose in North America
Date: Tue Dec 16 2014 22:10 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 
The purpose of this inquiry is to determine where and how often Red-breasted Geese have been recorded in North America.


The background of the inquiry is that at least twice a Red-breasted Goose has wintered with Cackling or Canada Geese in the Willamette Valley. Not surprisingly, the birds' provenance is being questioned. The presumption has been that these birds have been escapees from collections.

Factors that may indicate that they are wild birds that arrived from Asia include:

1. A bird purchased at the wild fowl market in San Francisco in the 1800s.

2. That neither bird has been banded.

3. That they have arrived and departed on schedule with the normal migrant geese.

4. That there is at least one record from Wrangle Island (western Russian arctic), which is where most of the Snow Geese that winter in the Pacific Northwest come from.


There have also been sightings of Red-breasted Goose elsewhere in the Pacific States.


My question is whether there have been sightings away from the Pacific States, and if so, where and how often, and under what circumstances. Presumably if the Pacific States birds are escapees, there would be escapees elsewhere in the USA.


Jeff Gilligan
Portland

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Labs that will do bird DNA analysis?
Date: Mon Dec 15 2014 21:11 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Does anyone know of any laboratories that can/will do bird DNA analysis?
I've now got several interesting gull fecal samples in a -20 degree chest
freezer, and I'm trying to find out who I should contact to get them
analyzed. It would be best if it could be done somewhere in northern
California, because the legality of mailing s***t, even if it comes from a
bird, is questionable at best...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Fwd: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential
Date: Sun Dec 14 2014 14:32 pm
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 


____________________________________
From: LGREUK400@aol.com
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERVE.KSU.EDU, BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Sent: 14/12/2014 19:47:54 GMT Standard Time
Subj: Trumpeter Swans - East Coast re-introductions and vagrancy potential


Following a severe Atlantic storm to the north of the UK, a pair of
TRUMPETER SWANS have appeared in Suffolk (UK) and joined a 70-throng grazing
flock of Mute Swans just inland of the seawall at Boyton Marshes. Although
probably just coincidental, similar weather preceded the last pair I saw in the
UK - in south Devon in February 2005 (this pair remained for about a week).

I am looking towards an update from North America and Canada on the East
Coast reintroduction of this species and how well the project is faring.
Population numbers and migrational abilities/strategies (eg, any long distance
movements).

Most birders in Britain consider this species a 'non event' and believe
them to be escapes, with perhaps 150 or so in captivity. They have very
occasionally bred in the wild in Britain but not recently. At least one bird is
free-ranging in Holland.

Looking forward to any guidance and comments that any of you can provide

Very best wishes

Lee Evans

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
knowledge and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
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Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 17:39 pm
From: tspahr AT cfa.harvard.edu
 
Hi All,

First of all, this is an absolutely fascinating discussion, and it is
helping me (and others I'm sure) work through the maze of empidonax
identification.

As an eastern birder who dabbles in western birds occasionally, this bird
seems to be in the Dusky/Least pile for me. Dusky (and Hammond's for that
matter) often appear gray-headed to me--particularly Dusky. This bird has
that appearance to me in many of the photos, but the tail length and the
primary edgings seem to lean towards Least. Further, the bill width seems
to indicate the bird could be a Least. I have been burned too many times
relying on color features in photographs, and would appreciate a bit more
on structure to help me come to any sort of conclusion. Note this is not a
knock on the photographers (I take thousands of bird photos a year), but
just a cautionary note in determining color shades from often
poorly-exposed photos of frenetic out-of-season insectivores.

So--are the tail length, apparent bill width, and primary edging contrast
inconsistent with a Least Flycatcher?

It would be great if the call notes could be recorded--that would surely
settle the Dusky/Least debate.

For posterity here is a Least Flycatcher from Wayland, MA on 7 Dec 2013
found by Brian Harris. Xeno-Canto recording below as well.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

http://www.xeno-canto.org/1571...


Best,

Tim Spahr



On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Avery Bartels
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>


--
Timothy B. Spahr, PhD
Director, Minor Planet Center
Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 15:39 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi,

I have nothing to add from an ID perspective. These Empids all go way over my head. From a photographic perspective I do have something to add. The differences between these images can all be explained by lighting and exposure.

Steve Bruce's pictures:- http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
Taken in duller light than Jake Walker's shots. Ideally exposed and white balanced.

Jake Walker's pictures:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Much more challenging light for the photographer. Very warm white balance (low sun?). Also certainly taken in brighter light than SB's images (though 3rd image in the sequence (15360100423_cf6d5f7c13_o) is different). So the images suffer from motion blur, white balance adjustment and loss of tonal range due to the brighter light (broader dynamic range). Taking a look at the histograms of the two sets of images there is a small bit of clipping in the red channel in JW's images which will affect colour very slightly (clipping may or may not be occurring in the bird's plumage).

Steve Bruce's pictures will naturally be closer to accurate but when white balance, exposure and contrast are all corrected for in Jake Walker's better exposed images the differences between these two sets of images is actually fairly minimal.

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lethaby, Nick
Sent: 11 December 2014 17:43
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of photos show the bird's plumage best.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.

If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.


--
Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 14:10 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi All,

Here are a few more shots of this bird from Rick Whitman.

http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com...

and a short video at 50% speed:

http://rickwhitman.smugmug.com...


Good birding,

Avery Bartels

> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:42:35 +0000
> From: nlethaby@TI.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of photos show the bird's plumage best.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>
> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.
>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher.
>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 13:43 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi Suzanne,

Thanks for the comments. Regarding the NS bird it is a hatch-year, see my previous message to the group. Your October Least is also a hatch-year, the most obvious indicator being the shape of the tail feathers. In most passerines, including Flycatchers, hatch-years have more pointed tail feathers. This is apparent on your bird, especially the outermost tail feather. The edging of the coverts and tertials can be quite faded by now in young birds. Also, in the photo you link to, the edging is a bit over-exposed possibly creating the impression of being whiter than they are.

As to why the NS bird is not a Least, much of that has been covered by Nick. Note how olive green the Mass. Least flycatcher is compared to the NS bird. Structurally, the NS bird is longer tailed and the bill is longer and narrower than a Least.

Good birding,

Avery Bartels
Wolfville, NS


> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:19 -0500
> From: swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Thanks Nick and others,
>
> I guess some folks thought the Oct Least I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with December Leasts. So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
> > Suzanne:
> >
> > I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
> > http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/p...
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet wrote:
> >> Ive probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.
> >>
> >> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empids call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammonds call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammonds is about 10% higher.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
> >>
> >> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
> >> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
> >> Anthropology & Linguistics)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435@gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435@gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 13:41 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
A quick note on molt - all Empids except HAFL and ACFL molt on the winter
grounds after southbound migration and thus are very worn in late
summer/fall when in the U.S. and Canada. I have seen few if any exceptions
to this (adults molting on the summer grounds or stopover areas, or
present in fresh plumage up here). Thus, virtually all fresh birds up here
in Aug-Nov are HYs, including all of the birds linked so far in this
discussion in a quick assessment.

Peter


> Thanks Nick and others,
>
> I guess some folks thought the Oct Least I linked to was tricky. I
> certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
> degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
> experience with December Leasts. So what would be the age of the NS
> bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
> birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... and
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... Note the faded plumage
> from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
> because light and angle?) I also included links another Least from
> Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a juv. and most of the discussion
> is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
> between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
> The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
> and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
> bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
> out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
> me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
> can help in one way or another.
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
> Cheers,
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>> Suzanne:
>>
>> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw
>> this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would
>> unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition
>> to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that
>> (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This
>> bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform
>> grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I
>> would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and
>> again like a Least.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
>> difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from
>> Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately
>> determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
>> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/p...
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet
>> wrote:
>>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the
>>> lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having
>>> only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more
>>> dark.
>>>
>>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this
>>> empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their
>>> call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic
>>> analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species
>>> under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s
>>> call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is
>>> about 10% higher.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
>>>
>>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Suzanne M. Sullivan
>> Wilmington, MA
>> swampy435@gmail.com
>>
>> Be the Voice of the River
>> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435@gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 12:38 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
With regards to the NS bird, I am concerned with differences between the two sets of photos. Looking at Steve Bruce's pictures, I would definitely be in the Dusky (or possibly Hammond's/Least) camp over Gray. However (the less good) pictures on Jake Walker's site seem to depict a paler gray and whiter bird more in line with a Gray. Can someone comment on which photo set matches what was seen in the field? I agree with others that the videos seem to rule out Gray on the tail flicking behavior but it would be good to establish which set of photos show the bird's plumage best.

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Paul Gorbet
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:27 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.

If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.


--
Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 12:36 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
Suzanne:

I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/p...


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.
>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.
>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 12:34 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi Nick,

The lighting in pretty much all of both sets of pics is not great. Some of
Jake's are a bit over exposed, Bruces in lowish light. From my personal
experience with Dusky Flycartchers (I grew up in BC and have banded lots) I
would say that this bird was on the paler end of the spectrum but by no
means unusually pale for a DUFL. I would encourage looking beyond
colouration and focussing more on other relevant field marks and shape etc.

My experience of Gray Flycatcher is extremely limited so I cant comment too
much in regards to them.

Good birding,

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 12:34 pm
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
Thanks Nick and others,

I guess some folks thought the Oct Least I linked to was tricky. I
certainly see Least in it also. Frankly all can be tricky to some
degree, right? Plumage can be often unreliable. Personally I have 0
experience with December Leasts. So what would be the age of the NS
bird if a western type? I would suspect some plumage fading on some
birds. Here is a late Oct Least from this year I'm guessing adult.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... and
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/i... Note the faded plumage
from olive to gray and the upper inner tertials grayish ( or this
because light and angle?) I also included links another Least from
Nov 30 last year. This one id'ed as a juv. and most of the discussion
is around structure. Once again to me the structure is very similar
between all these birds and the NS bird, but I am certainly no expert.
The 2 bird reports are from Matt Garvey ( photos from Marshall Iliff)
and Ryan Merrill. With out a recording I'm not sure one can id such a
bird for sure. But still to my eyes I don't see how Least can be ruled
out. The only feature that seems to not point to Least is the bill to
me but hard to say for sure from photos. At any rate hope these links
can help in one way or another.

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15760774

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15763596
Cheers,

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
> Suzanne:
>
> I am surprised this (= Oct Mass) bird caused a lot of debate. If I saw this bird in coastal California, where Least is a rare migrant, I would unhesitatingly identify it as a Least. Compared the NS bird, in addition to the shorter bill you noted, it also lacks the extensive gray of that (=NS) bird on the upperparts and sides of the throat and breast. This bird shows rather whitish underparts contrasting with dull uniform grayish-olive upperparts. This is how many Least look in fall to me. I would say the wings of this bird are a bit more contrasting as well and again like a Least.
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification ?[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:14 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid
>
> All,
>
> I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes anyway.
> http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/p...
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet wrote:
>> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.
>>
>> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
>>
>> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of
>> Albuquerque NM since 1979) University of New Mexico (Emeritus,
>> Anthropology & Linguistics)
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435@gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 12:34 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi All,

Thanks for all your responses. The general consensus seems to be that this
is a Dusky Flycatcher. Having personally seen and banded lots of DUFL, HAFL
and LEFL in BC, the latter two were removed from consideration (in my mind
at least) from the get-go. Structurally, the bird in question was simply
too elongated, with a relatively long tail, and incorrect wing formula for
either LEFL or HAFL. The call was also clearly not that of a HAFL.

For interests sake it is worth pointing out this bird is a hatch-year (born
this year). This has been independently noted by others. See the rather
pointed rectrices as well as the fact that the greater coverts have a
moderate amount of wear. An adult would have just finished it's moult and
be very fresh. Alternately, if it had delayed it's moult due to the stress
of surviving in inclement weather conditions since arriving, it would be
extremely worn all over.

If anyone has any additional comments about this bird that would be great.
The species that few of us out here seem to be familiar enough with is
Gray, which I think was a contributing factor to the ID difficulties.

Thanks again and good birding!

Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 9:12 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
PS..... I also did not mention, Least Flycatchers pump tail upward and
flick wings.



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Thu Dec 11 2014 9:11 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
All,

I'm curious, why and makes this flycatcher not a Least? I see no
difference, except maybe bill length, between this Oct flycatcher
from Mass a few years ago that received much attention but was
ultimately determined Least. Wing looks virtually identical to my eyes
anyway.
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/p...


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Paul Gorbet wrote:
> I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.
>
> If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.
>
>
> --
> Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM
>
> Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque NM since 1979)
> University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)
>
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 21:08 pm
From: lgorbet AT unm.edu
 
I’ve probably seen close to 100 Dusky Flycatchers in the hand and the lower mandible color pattern is quite variable, occasionally having only a slight duskiness at the tip and at other times being 80% or more dark.

If perchance anyone has even a very mediocre recording of this empid’s call notes, that should make identification definitive. Their call notes are highly stereotyped, and with just about any acoustic analysis software, two characteristics that differentiate the species under consideration are quite striking. The duration of the Hammond’s call is about 6 or 7 times that of a Dusky. The pitch of Hammond’s is about 10% higher.


--
Larry Gorbet Albuquerque NM

Rio Grande Bird Research, Inc. (banding in the Rio Grande Valley of Albuquerque NM since 1979)
University of New Mexico (Emeritus, Anthropology & Linguistics)





Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 18:16 pm
From: tjanzen AT comcast.net
 
Dear Avery,
I agree with Dave that Gray Flycatcher is not an option for this bird.
However, I don't feel comfortable eliminating Dusky. The bird doesn't show
as much orange on the lower mandible as I would expect for a Dusky
Flycatcher, but the bill seems large for a Hammond's Flycatcher. The
primary projection seems relatively short to my eye. Do you have any photos
that show the underside of the bill well?
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 2:11 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye,
this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.

Dave Irons

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 18:10 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
 All:

I posted a comment on the cited website with, essentially, all points raised by Gary noted. I could not discern bill pattern in the bird, as the underside of the mandible is not particularly visible in any still nor in any video. The extreme dullness of the bird, particularly the face pattern, and the grayness of the plumage should rule out any Hammond's Fly. That is because all should be in relatively fresh plumage now, unlike both Dusky and Gray, which conduct their preformative and prebasic molts on winter grounds (Hammond's prebasic is conducted on breeding grounds). Additionally, as noted by Gary, the call note absolutely rules out Hammond's (assuming that it was heard and assessed correctly). The tail action ABSOLUTELY rules out Gray.

Tony




Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Nunn
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 5:50 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid


Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher. Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture. The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly. The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky. In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed. In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion. In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail. The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax. They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone. The name is appropriate! Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed. Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above. I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky. Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched. This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p=4070

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn@gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 18:10 pm
From: garybnunn AT gmail.com
 
Primary projection is quite difficult to estimate from photographs of
Empids. Whether you are looking up or down at the bird, and very
importantly if the bird is dropping its wings or has them more rested on
the back and uppertail coverts. In a good series of shots of a Hammond's
you could expect to end up with a few that look clearly to have long
primary projection like this for example
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p%18

Hammond's Flycatcher can be eliminated on call since it does not make the
"whit" call described but instead has a more piercing "peek", or "pip"
which it usually emits in excited bursts, particularly around other
Empids. Always hard to locate that call if the bird is not visible!

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:10 PM, David Irons wrote:

> The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
> Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my
> eye, this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.
>
> Dave Irons
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels"
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> > has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning
> towards
> > the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> > description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
> >
> >
> > http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
> >
> >
> > For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
> >
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> >
> >
> > I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> > western birders who have more experience with these species.
> >
> > Good birding,
> >
> >
> > Avery Bartels,
> > Wolfville, NS
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn@gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 18:10 pm
From: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com
 
The ratio of the primary extension to the extension of the rectrices beyond the primary tips is approximately 3. This ration fits Hammond's Flycatcher.  Hatch year Hammond's Flycatcher can show a fully colored lower mandible. The general coloration of the bird also fits Hammond's Flycatcher. And the bird has the short-tailed appearance of a Hammond's.  

Sincerely 

Leith 
  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
From: Avery Bartels
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 12:50 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nova Scotia Empid

Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 17:35 pm
From: garybnunn AT gmail.com
 
Hi Avery,

I see both Gray and Dusky regularly here in San Diego and the tail action
of this bird, in the videos available, points to it being a Dusky
Flycatcher. Typical tail action of Gray Flycatcher is languid downward
clocking only with a slightly faster raise of the tail back to the
"relaxed" or normal posture. The tail may overshoot the "relaxed" posture
very slightly but it never flicks up strongly. The speed of the tail
movement in Gray, I mean physically as the tail goes down and back up, is
noticeably slower also than the faster twitchy tail movements of Dusky. In
addition the Gray Flycatcher does not flick its wings while clocking the
tail down or back up, at least when it is relaxed and moving around feeding
and not alarmed. In fact the wings on Gray don't seem to move a whole lot
while the bird is perched, which adds to the strange impression of the tail
clocking downwards in almost robot like fashion. In my experience if you
watch a Gray Flycatcher it will eventually start down clocking the tail, it
is not often that I see one and there is no motion of the tail. The two
species are quite easy to separate based on behavior differences.

In terms of appearance the Gray Flycatcher is decidedly frosty or glaucous
looking in plumage compared to all other Empidonax. They can look quite
ghostly sitting in a leafless bush for example, with a strong component of
grayish-white to the plumage tone. The name is appropriate! Your
flycatcher has warmer color tones and I believe possibly some patches of
fresh brownish-olive body plumage which are more strongly colored, pointing
to it being a Dusky.

Least Flycatcher can be eliminated on wing coloration/contrast and
additionally its more rapid whitting, repeated in short bursts unlike both
Gray and Dusky which tend to make intermittent single whit calls.

Lower mandible color is of some use but Dusky has variable extent of dusky
coloration on the lower mandible bill tip and strong light illumination can
fool you into thinking there is not much dark there. So the field mark can
look to overlap sometimes if only a small darker tip is noticed. Gray
always has just a small dark tip to the lower mandible but this field mark
is tricky to see and actually quite difficult to photograph effectively
also due to the fact that many undersides of Empid bills in photographs are
strongly illuminated from above. I would rely on this field mark carefully
only with good photographs, for example under a high dense tree canopy with
the bird sitting lower and above you.

Gray Flycatcher bill size is decidedly stronger (larger?) looking than
Dusky and the head shape has subtle shape difference too, I believe more
elongated front to back than Dusky producing a nicer oval impression versus
a more rounded look of Dusky. Both species have generous hooks on the
upper mandible tip which in very high-def photos is useful to separate from
Hammond's which, "in life" (not a museum tray, I think all Empids actually
have hooks on the tip), holds its bill tips closer matched. This can be
useful if you lack a good primary projection photograph of a Hammond's for
example.

I have some extensive series of photographs of Gray and Dusky on my blog.
You can see a good example of the tail clocking action in Gray Flycatcher
in the last few photographs here - tail relaxed, tail down
http://www.sandiegobirding.com/?p@70

In my opinion this is a Dusky Flycatcher.

Gary Nunn,
San Diego

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Avery Bartels
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
Gary Nunn

*San Diego Birding - my blog *
garybnunn@gmail.com
Mobile: 650-305-0029

San Diego Field Ornithologists
President & Program Chair

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 16:10 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
The primary projection on this bird appears to be much too long for both
Dusky and Gray and the tail flick isn't right for either species. To my eye, this bird is a rather typical looking Hammond's Flycatcher.

Dave Irons

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 10, 2014, at 1:16 PM, "Avery Bartels" wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
> A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
> has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
> the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
> description of the history of the sighting on his page below.
>
>
> http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...
>
>
> For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
> western birders who have more experience with these species.
>
> Good birding,
>
>
> Avery Bartels,
> Wolfville, NS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Nova Scotia Empid
Date: Wed Dec 10 2014 15:49 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi All,


A western Empid showed up here in Nova Scotia about a week ago. The bird
has been narrowed down to Dusky or Gray, with many birders leaning towards
the latter. Steve Bruce has some good photos and video and he includes a
description of the history of the sighting on his page below.


http://owlandmarmot.com/2014/1...


For a few more shots, here is Jake Walker's flickr page.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


I'm looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this bird, especially from
western birders who have more experience with these species.

Good birding,


Avery Bartels,
Wolfville, NS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Buteo
Date: Tue Dec 2 2014 13:19 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
 Hi all:

Ah, I somehow missed that. However, it does not at all change my assessment of the species. Being July, the bird is almost certainly in wing molt, so the longest primaries may well not be full-grown or even present, which can greatly alter wingtip shape and length.

Tony




Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie
To: Tony Leukering ; BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo



Thanks for the information.


Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with binoculars. This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first place.







“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull





From: Tony Leukering
To: loinneilceol@yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo




All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk. My rationale follows.


1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends beyond the tail tip.

2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles (of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult.

3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk.

4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds.

5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the southern, range-restricted buteos.

6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 'svelte.'

7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in both species, however.

This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion.

Respectfully,

Tony




Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/

http://aba.org/photoquiz/









-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have a
good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western,
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on the
secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is
not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA of the
“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual
is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA. On Nov 29, 2014, at
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no
v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk. But I think that
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's. I am not confident the
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded annually
(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie

Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph)
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has photos
of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: could
the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow color,
that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t
right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray
banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark
chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is real and
the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have
enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown. For those of
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well
short of the tail tip is key. Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/...

| |
| | | | | | | |
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| |
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| |
| |




“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...











Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Buteo
Date: Tue Dec 2 2014 13:19 pm
From: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com
 
Thanks for the information.
Just to be clear, the assessment that the tail tip extends ~1 inch beyond the end of the primaries, is based on by observation of the bird in the field with binoculars.  This fact is what peaked my interest in this bird in the first place.  



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
From: Tony Leukering
To: loinneilceol@yahoo.com; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo

All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk.  My rationale follows.

1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends beyond the tail tip.

2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles (of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and wing coverts that this bird lacks.  Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage is just too messy for the bird to be older.  That is, it lacks the smooth, concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult.

3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, particularly, Swainson's hawks).  If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers.  If an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous chest.  This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage.  If it were a dark 'morph' Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age.  Finally, as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk.

4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit this bird's shape.  Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds.

5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the southern, range-restricted buteos.

6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in question.  The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the lower end of the body.  Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 'svelte.'

7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a scene.  The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and reaching both edges of the feather.  There are certainly contrary examples in both species, however.

This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk.  Though the light (and most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary.  Less so, perhaps, than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion.

Respectfully,

Tony

Tony LeukeringLargo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://aba.org/photoquiz/



-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo

Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have a
good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western,
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on the
secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere is
not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA of the
“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual
is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no
v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded annually
(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records. 
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie

Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph)
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has photos
of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: could
the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow color,
that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t
right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray
banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark
chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is real and
the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have
enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well
short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/...

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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
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Jonathan Livingston Seagull 



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Buteo
Date: Tue Dec 2 2014 13:17 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
All:

I believe that this is a dark Swainson's Hawk. My rationale follows.


1) We cannot accurately assess wing length, because the tips are hidden by the tail, though there is some suggestion that, perhaps, one wingtip barely extends beyond the tail tip.

2) If a Swainson's, this bird is probably a year old or so, as fresh juveniles (of whatever color) have obvious pale fringing to back feathers, scapulars, and wing coverts that this bird lacks. Also, the appearance of the bird's plumage is just too messy for the bird to be older. That is, it lacks the smooth, concolorousness, particularly on the underparts, of an adult.

3) A Red-tailed Hawk of this general coloration might be a rufous 'morph' (I'm not sure that this term is entirely appropriate for either Red-taileds or, particularly, Swainson's hawks). If so, a juvenile of such would show obvious streaking below and, again, extensive pale fringing of upperparts feathers. If an adult, it would show a wide black belly contrasting with a dark rufous chest. This bird shows neither underparts coloration/pattern, nor is the its coloration at all intermediate between the two, so we can rule out an immature rufous Red-tailed in transition to adult plumage. If it were a dark 'morph' Red-tailed, it would have darker body plumage, regardless of the age. Finally, as noted by Leith, the bird does not sport any obvious pale coloration on the scapulars, which should rule out just about any form of Red-tailed Hawk.

4) Broad-winged Hawk is a large-headed, chunky raptor that does not at all fit this bird's shape. Additionally, in the 100s of 1000s of Broad-wingeds that I've seen, I've never seen one with anything like this coloration, and I've seen >130 dark Broad-wingeds.

5) Ferruginous and Rough-legged hawks are right out, as are all of the southern, range-restricted buteos.

6) There really is not a northern ABA-area buteo other than Swainson's that sports the somewhat-small-headed, attenuated rear-end look of the bird in question. The attenuated look in Swainson's is created by the combination of both length (long) AND width (narrow) of the tail, as well as the shape of the lower end of the body. Red-tailed Hawk has a larger, rounder head with a more-prominent bill and an overall appearance that can only rarely be termed 'svelte.'

7) Finally, though non-definitive, the barring on the bird's tail is suggestive of Swainson's in that the individual bars do not reach the inner edge of the feathers AND that the shape is somewhat suggestive of that silly 'M' pattern that untalented or impatient artists draw when putting flying gulls into a scene. The barring on Red-taileds tends to be straight across the feather and reaching both edges of the feather. There are certainly contrary examples in both species, however.

This bird provides yet another example of why I think that 'morph' is not a useful or accurate term to be used in Swainson's Hawk. Though the light (and most-numerous) end of the color spectrum exhibited by the species' plumage might be at least somewhat distinct and diagnosable, I've never been able to find a line between 'intermediate' and 'dark' in the species, and any line between 'intermediate' and 'light' is also fairly arbitrary. Less so, perhaps, than the other line, but still arbitrary, in my opinion.

Respectfully,

Tony




Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: Leith McKenzie
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Dec 2, 2014 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Buteo


Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it
takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have a
good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and
measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of
Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western,
Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that
subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on the
secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as
well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere
(typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail. The yellowish cere is
not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a
yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA of the
“dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal
evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual
is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA. On Nov 29, 2014, at
3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no
v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with
yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the
bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts
showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk. But I think that
Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers
mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's. I am not confident the
bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did
not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark
eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded annually
(or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.
So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile
Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in
Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie

Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph)
does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow
banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that
your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has photos
of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: could
the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow color,
that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t
right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray
banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark
chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is real and
the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should
discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to
Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have
enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown. For those of
us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well
short of the tail tip is key. Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for
me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience
with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/...

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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of
freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Buteo
Date: Tue Dec 2 2014 12:19 pm
From: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com
 
Here is some thoughts/discussion about the bird with colleague Barry McKenzie.

From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hawk Pics
Well! This is a interesting bird.There are so many sub-types of RTHA that it takes a dissertation to sort them out. BWHA is simpler.Too bad you don’t have a good size reference in the photos. Remember how big that snag is? Go back and measure it? Ha!
I’ve been pouring over the descriptions and images in Wheeler (Raptors of Western North America). Haven’t entered the black hole of online research.
Overall, my impression is that this bird is most likely a juv Western, Intermediate form of RTHA (B. j. calurus). The bird is so dark overall, that subtle features are just not available. Can’t see color differences/spots on the secondaries. The narrow barring on the undertail is consistent with RTHA as well. The only thing against that is the apparent bright yellowish cere (typically “greenish” on juv B. j. calurus).
Juv BWHA should have a heavier terminal band on the tail.  The yellowish cere is not described on BWHA that I can find…but a photo shows what appears as a yellowish cere — described as “pale lores”. Hmm. That’s on a juv BWHA of the “dark morph, streaked type” subspecies.
I approach the question of a rarity with caution: you gotta have unequivocal evidence to truely separate it from a common local species. So, this individual is ambiguous, but I think the bulk of evidence says RTHA.  On Nov 29, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Leith McKenzie wrote:
Hi Barry
I think Red-tailed is ruled out by the lack of scalloping on the upperparts (no v pattern) and the short primaries. Also, juvenile Red-tails are depicted with yellow eyes (is that the case in Wheeler) In the field, my first view of the bird was from the side/back with mostly the uniform dark brown upperparts showing, and my immediate reaction was Swainson's Hawk.  But I think that Swainson's is ruled out by the short primaries alone; also the white feathers mottling the underparts is not typical for Swainson's.  I am not confident the bird can be identified from the pics, and I had no other views as the bird did not fly.
Some of the key points are: primaries well short (~1inch) of tail tip, dark eyes, white feathers mixed in brown underparts, uniform dark brown upperparts.

As far as Broad-winged Hawk in Oregon goes, I think that it is recorded annually (or almost) in Oregon by the Hawk Watch folks, and I have 4 previous records.  So it is not that Broad-winged Hawk would be that newsworthy, but a Juvenile Broad-winged on July 16 would pose the question of breeding for the species in Oregon, which is why I think the bird may be of scientific interest.
From: Barry McKenzie
To: Leith McKenzie

Swainson’s, huh?A first impression can be valuable. A juv SWHA (dark morph) does indeed fit many of the features in your photos: - yellow cere - narrow banding on tail and undertail coverts
I see what you mean about the short primaries…does it make a difference that your photo bird was in July? Are the primaries still growing? Wheeler has photos of juv birds in Sept that show longer primaries (as you’d expect). Also: could the apparent yellow cere be a trick of the light? If it’s a true yellow color, that narrows things down to Swainson’s or Ferruginous…and the undertail isn’t right for FEHA (should be pale/plain with a weak sub-terminal band and weak gray banding). Wheeler has some photos of juv dark morph FEHA that shows a very dark chest/belly with just a bit of white — not as much as in your photos.
So…gee…I dunno. It sure could be SWHA, especially if the yellow cere is real and the primary length is variable in a July juv bird. I don’t think we should discount your real-time first impression.Although I said my vote went to Red-tailed earlier, now I’m not so sure. I think the photos just don’t have enough detail or angles.
Cool.
Barry
If it is a hatch year bird, the primaries should be fully grown.  For those of us in the "morphology trumps plumage camp" the fact that the primaries are well short of the tail tip is key.  Yep, I agree that the photos do not provide for me enough information, which I was hoping someone my have firsthand experience with birds showing similar coloration to the underparts.
Leithhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/...

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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull 



“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
Date: Sat Nov 29 2014 23:29 pm
From: kinglet32 AT yahoo.com
 
ID Frontiers,

Just the day before Kurt's post on finch ID, I sent out emails to some folks regarding exactly the same "potential" field mark I had noticed.  In fact I posted to COBirds (Colorado) that day titled "Haemorhous finch ID" - so I was definitely piqued to see Kurt's identically titled post, with the same field mark, on ID Frontiers whilst browsing the listservs tonight!

12 Nov. - Colorado - Bryan Guarente posted to COBirds about a possible Purple Finch (PUFI) in Boulder, Colorado, where Cassin's Finch (CAFI) would be "expected" and PUFI would be rare.

16 Nov. - Texas - Mary Beth Stowe, Sherry & Dick Wilson, Dan Jones, et. al. report a possible Cassin's Finch from the Rio Grande Valley of south Texas, where both CAFI and PUFI would be odd, but I'd think PUFI would be "more likely."

Interesting to see CAFI and PUFI being reported in their atypical ranges within a small time frame. What are the odds I'd share a field mark that I have not read about a day before another fellow shares the same idea? Maybe we will both be proven wrong, but I do feel it's got potential. I do feel the TX bird is CAFI and the CO bird is PUFI.

Colorado "PUFI"
Bryan Guarente:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Texas "CAFI"
Mary Beth Stowe:
http://miriameaglemon.com/phot...
Robert Becker:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

---------------------------------
An email I sent out 23 nov. to some folks pertaining to the Texas bird:

"Hey guys,
I've been following the finch excitement on Texbirds while also looking for these finches in Colorado. Now I certainly ain't an expert on Haemorhous finches but I've seen eastern PUFI and have had a few encounters with CAFI in Colorado with some good up close study and photo ops last winter. I think the TX bird is a Cassin's for a few reasons.

Also a few days before the Texas bird was reported, in the midst of the snowy cold snap we all experienced and with Cassin's Finches, Pine Grosbeaks, etc being reported at lower elevations than normal even in winter here in Colorado, a fellow in the foothills of northern Colorado reported a Purple Finch at his feeder hanging out with House Finches. Cassin's is the expected bird and Purple is a rarity.  I looked at the two photos and thought it looked "ok" for CAFI.  Now it seems most people agree it's a PUFI and I think the PUFI  ID is probably correct!  The CO bird made me think a little more of this ID issue, hence excitement about this TX bird.

Also Barrett Pierce reported 3 Cassin's Finches 25 Oct. at Palo Duro Canyon SP.   Chris Runk reported 5+ Cassin's in the Guads 28-29 Oct. so they look like they're on the move. Probably a lot of finches of various species were on the move with the continent wide cold snap we had. Look out for Bramblings

pro Cassin's for Texas bird,

- facial pattern intensity.  IMHO female/imm Cassin's and Purple plumage are equally 'striking' in the facial striping.
- crisp narrow streaks above and below good for CAFI
- warm highlights of rusty auriculars and buffy malar were one of the main things I noticed studying CAFI at close range, and appear to match TX bird.  This gold vs gray contrast seemed subtle but consistent in Colorado Cassin's throughout the upperparts. Rust in the lower cheek and gold in the anterior 2/3 of the malar and sometimes supercilium, gold/rusty wash to some of the wing coverts contrasting with gray in the collar and upper mantle.  CAFI's warmer face and rusty cheeks even reminded me of a very subtle Little Bunting giss.  Basically the center of warm tones on CAFI was on the face, and some in the wing, while on PUFI it may be on the mantle or generally lacking 'gold/rust' highlights in general. PUFI being more evenly colored throughout and with thicker duller dark streaking above and below.
- bill looks good for CAFI
- pale eye crescents


Colorado "PUFI"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15772478681/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dafekt1ve/15588523669/in/photostream/

Texas "CAFI"
http://miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/2014%20Field%20Trips/November/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html
 
I have a series of Cassin's Finch photos I can post on flickr when I get a chance.   I think they're a good match with the TX bird.

Good birding,
Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO"
------------------------------


 An email I sent out to a fellow Colorado birder pertaining to the same situation:

"Thanks for the only reply I've received so far. Your photos are an excellent resource, and support what I thought about darker, blurrier streak-wise in PUFI vs narrower, crisper streaks in CAFI and hence more room for paleness, if that makes any sense. Plus bill shape etc etc.

Last February Josh Bruening and I headed uphill to check Scott Rashid's feeders in Estes Park for rosy-finches. We dipped on rosies (found them later in the day at Fawn Brook Inn) but had excellent up close study of dozens of CAFI, alongside PISI, HOFI, EVGR.  Took a decent series of photos of these finches as well, and one thing that really seemed to stand out was the coloration of the fem/imm CAFIs.  A majority of them showed subtle but consistent rufous tones to their auriculars.  And some gold wash to the anterior 1/3 or 2/3 of the pale malar.  And lack of buff on the sides/flanks.  Seems to me that PUFI lacks the rufous cheeks and shows the same shade of brown as the rest of the upperparts. Also some PUFIs seem to have a buff wash to malar, but these buffy birds also might tend to show the buff on sides/flanks as well.   Now this is based on a pretty small sample and limited experience but an outstanding feature of these CAFIs I've studied and photographed tend towards a 'colorful face' that PUFI lacks.

Good birding,
Derek"
----------------






Also I have posted a series of finch photos that I took 8 February 2014, Larimer County, Colorado, the day I enjoyed dozens of CAFI and noticed the 'gold/rust' wash to their faces!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Curious to hear others' input on a potential field mark,

Derek Hill
Fort Collins, CO


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Buteo
Date: Fri Nov 28 2014 19:07 pm
From: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com
 
This Hawk was observed on Horsefly Mountain, Oregon on July 16, 2014. Key ID points are: the extension of the wing tips is well short of the extension of the tail and the eyes are dark, the colors in the photo are accurate. Can this be identified to species with certainty? What about age, I think the tail suggests that it is an immature. Thanks. Leith
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
Date: Wed Nov 26 2014 14:26 pm
From: cjcorben AT hoarybat.com
 
Any sample of human DNA will be contaminated by all sorts of other
things. Most of the cells in our bodies are actually bacteria! It is not
a problem, as the genetics people have ways of dealing with such things.
Otherwise a cheek swab would be completely useless.

Cheers, Chris.

On 11/26/2014 1:03 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
> I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
> touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
> this ruin the sample?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>


--

Chris Corben.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
Date: Wed Nov 26 2014 13:30 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
this ruin the sample?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Gull for DNA Sequencing
Date: Tue Nov 25 2014 12:24 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I'm looking for second opinions on this gull:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I initially thought this bird was an unusual West Coast Herring (hybrid?)
type with sharp, spotty head streaking (which I see in small numbers each
winter), and collected poop for DNA sequencing. But now I'm wondering if
this is just a fairly typical Herring, in which case DNA sequencing would
be quite the waste of money...

What do you all think? Is there anything about this bird that looks wrong
for Herring, or am I freaking out over nothing again?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 12:38 pm
From: kurtrad AT mexicobirding.com
 
Dear Frontiers,

I have noticed a potential field mark to help separate female and juvenal
Cassin's Finch from Purple Finch.

Purple Finch is a review species in Arizona, so I have spent some time
reviewing photos of potential Cassin's and Purple.

After looking at hundreds of photos on the internet (although photo labels
on the internet are often wrong) and other sources, I have found that many
of the Cassin's show a yellow golden color in the check malar area that
contrasts with the white underparts, this yellow golden cheek is not
typically present on Purple. On Purple that area is normally white and does
not contrast with the face and underparts.

This yellow golden area is also present on the Texas bird:
http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz

I don't know if this mark will hold up over all ages and plumages of Purple
and Cassin's, but it seems to at least favor Cassin's in the many photos I
have reviewed.

I'd be curious to know if others have seen this and if it holds up.

Kurt Radamaker
Cave Creek, AZ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 7:17 am
From: l.raty AT skynet.be
 
"Sky Lark" was one of a set of suggestions made in 1988
(http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.14... ) by a
BOURC-appointed subcommittee in a first attempt to "internationalize"
the English names of WP birds.
BOU (1992) followed, and listed the species as "Sky Lark" (international
English name) / "Skylark" ("older" English name); BOU (2006:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.14... ) still repeated this.
BOU (2013: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/ibi.... ), however, switched to
IOC for international names, halting the use of the 1988 "British
international English names", and listed Alauda arvensis as "Skylark"
(BOU English name) / "Eurasian Skylark" (IOU international English name).

Thus the international name used by the BOU is now the name that was
used by the AOU, before the AOU followed a change that had been
triggered by the BOU...


On 11/21/2014 09:56 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
> identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

If you found it interesting, you may want to check this, too:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p010828&postcount
(Albeit there is now some suggestion that things may be still more
complex than this...)

Cheers,
Laurent -


On 11/24/2014 11:20 AM, Vaughan, Robert wrote:
> I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
>
> Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.
>
> The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much darker than European subspecies.
>
> Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
> including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and japonica:
> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
>
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
> http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
> https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...
>
> Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:
>
> "p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."
>
> Cheerio,
>
> Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 4:32 am
From: robert.vaughan AT kcl.ac.uk
 
I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there).  Could the US be lagging behind?


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively
>long tail and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However,
>the most definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad
>white trailing edge to the secondaries and inner primaries and
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed
>tip), a much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores),
>narrower breast
> streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the
>ground colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a distinct impression of a
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter tail and wings
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an
>equally
> loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella
>across much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran
>and dulcivox from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian
>pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from further east. A complication
>comes with the little-studied JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms
>a bridging gap between the two and does have some differences in
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make your records go much further and contribute towards the
>protection, knowledge and further education of our native wildlife -
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...
>
>
>
>Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
>British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
>Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
>Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
>Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
>Western Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
>Items For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...
>
>Local Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
>Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
>Buckinghamshire Birding -
>http://buckinghamshirebirding....
>Birds of Tring Reservoirs -
>http://birdingtringreservoirs....
>Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Sun Nov 23 2014 18:04 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 18:15 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 15:10 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which
is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of
nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN
SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
>a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
>and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
>definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white
>trailing edge
>to the secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
>sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in
>the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
>much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores),
>narrower breast
> streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
>colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail
>coverts of ES). The
>ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
>outer web gives a distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
>relatively shorter tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
>flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
>call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
> loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae
>from central
>& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across much of
>central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox from the
>Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from
>further east. A complication comes with the little-studied JAPANESE
>SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and
>does have some
>differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, breeding
>across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
>Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
>knowledge and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
>BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...
>
>
>
>Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
>General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
>British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
>Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
>Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
>Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
>Western Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
>Items For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...
>
>Local Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
>Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
>Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
>Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
>Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Skylark names
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 8:08 am
From: baro AT pdx.edu
 
To the extent that abhorrance is an emotional state, i'll second that
emotion. May i suggest a more appropriate binomial? Skylark Lark. Bob
OBrien Carver OR.

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, DPratt14 wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language. Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not "To a
Sky Lark". The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure the
English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination, especially
when there is no good purpose served.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
>
> "How terribly strange to be seventy." -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 4:23 am
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
Peter

Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374

In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white trailing edge
to the secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in the autumn).

Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), narrower breast
streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail coverts of ES). The
ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
outer web gives a distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
relatively shorter tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
flight.

In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.

SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS

As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from central
& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across much of
central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox from the
Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from
further east. A complication comes with the little-studied JAPANESE
SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and does have some
differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.

ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, breeding
across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.

Best wishes

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
knowledge and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Skylark names
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 0:57 am
From: DPratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Hi everyone:

I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language. Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not
"To a Sky Lark". The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure
the English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination,
especially when there is no good purpose served.

Doug Pratt


"How terribly strange to be seventy." -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC 27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC 27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Thu Nov 20 2014 17:59 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Greetings all -

The bird in this image:
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374

was observed on Kure Atoll, Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, 4-12
November 2014. This is the only photograph. It was identified as a
probable Sky Lark by the observers. We are interested in comments on
the species and subspecies identification.

There is one previous record of Sky Lark for Kure, of the Asian
subspecies pekinensis of the nominate (arvensis) group, from October
1963. The nominate European subspecies, or some mixture involving it,
has been introduced to the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands and has
occurred as a vagrant (presumably from the southeastern islands) to
French Frigate Shoals, about a third of the way out from Kauai to Kure.

I am also interested in the current thinking on species status and
for Oriental Sky Lark (A. gulgula) as well as common names within the
genus. Most, including the AOU, seem to regard Oriental Sky Lark as a
separate species but, if so, the AOU name "Sky Lark" for the
arvensis/japonica groups would seem to need a modifier.

Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 23:23 pm
From: grlazaro AT yahoo.es
 
http://www.sim-stroy.com/dvza/...



grlazaro@yahoo.es



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Another Goldeneye
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 22:36 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
Brad:

The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, while the very black back indicates a male. I'm not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, but the intermediate scapular pattern may indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.

¡Muy interesante!

Tony

Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer wrote:
>
> Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> get some help on both the age and species of the following bird. We observed
> it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a first
> for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern California
> mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from us.
> It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while swimming.
> The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very difficult
> for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> Brad Singer
> Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Another Goldeneye
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 21:48 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I agree that this is an adult and am wondering if
it might be an older female with some traits
(bill color, back color, visible white in the
scapulars, but not white in the face) showing
male-like characters due to senescence. I'd guess
that the same mechanisms resulting in male-like
plumage in these females (reduced levels of
estrogen that normally mask effects of
testosterone) could be acting on the bill color as well.

Overall the bill size and head shape strike me
more like a Barrow's Goldeneye, but I'd hesitate
to confirm this based on these photos, especially if it is indeed a female.

Peter

At 07:18 PM 11/19/2014, Tony leukering wrote:
>Brad:
>
>The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult,
>while the very black back indicates a male. I'm
>not sure what that all means for the bird's ID,
>but the intermediate scapular pattern may
>indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling
>aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at
>this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.
>
>¡Muy interesante!
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>Largo, FL
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> > On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer wrote:
> >
> > Since you are all on the subject of
> Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> > get some help on both the age and species of
> the following bird. We observed
> > it with a flock of Common's and one adult
> male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a first
> > for the area and considered very rare for its
> location on a Southern California
> > mountain lake. We observed the bird in
> question as it was swimming away from us.
> > It caught our eye immediately with its
> extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> > indicate that it maintained a steep forehead
> profile at most times while swimming.
> > The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty
> although bill size is very difficult
> > for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> > Brad Singer
> > Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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