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Updated on June 7, 2016, 8:05 am

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07 Jun: @ 08:02:30  Goose sp [Jeff Bleam]
06 Jun: @ 22:39:23 Re: Goose sp [whoffman]
06 Jun: @ 11:05:44  Goose sp [Jeff Bleam]
02 Jun: @ 17:06:45 Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Geoff Malosh]
02 Jun: @ 16:51:39 Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Brendan Fogarty]
02 Jun: @ 13:40:27 Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Tony Futcher]
02 Jun: @ 09:46:08 Re: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes]
02 Jun: @ 09:27:33  Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania [Heveran .]
28 May: @ 12:33:20 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Jason Rogers]
28 May: @ 04:46:15 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [David Sibley]
28 May: @ 01:57:22 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Tim Janzen]
27 May: @ 23:55:23  Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Ken R. Schneider]
23 May: @ 20:32:22 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady]
23 May: @ 18:36:40 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 16:59:43 Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 14:48:54 Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Joseph Morlan]
23 May: @ 11:34:17 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 11:19:07  Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 11:13:25 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Brian Sullivan]
23 May: @ 11:02:16 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 10:33:17 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 10:25:14 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [karlson3]
22 May: @ 23:31:33 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [David Irons]
22 May: @ 23:27:14 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Tony Leukering]
22 May: @ 22:34:10  Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady]
20 May: @ 05:01:27 Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Mary Beth Stowe]





Subject: Goose sp
Date: Tue Jun 7 2016 8:02 am
From: 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Thanks all for your comments on the Reno NV Goose.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Goose sp
Date: Mon Jun 6 2016 22:39 pm
From: whoffman AT peak.org
 
Hi -

Reading the post I was expecting a photo of a domestic of some breed. The photo, however, looks like a leucistic Snow Goose. I think the grin patch looks small because of lack of black pigment in the mouth. Shape and body proportions look very good for Snow Goose.

Wayne


From: "Jeff Bleam"
To: "BIRDWG01"
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2016 8:54:52 AM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Goose sp

This goose was seen on a pond in South Reno NV (ebird cklist and photos:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S30059731). Large white with
large bill some what flat head of a white adult Snow Goose. The grin is
small even for a Lesser or Lesser x Ross. No black primaries. Possible
Snow x Domestic sp? Any thoughts?

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Goose sp
Date: Mon Jun 6 2016 11:05 am
From: 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
This goose was seen on a pond in South Reno NV (ebird cklist and photos:
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S30059731). Large white with
large bill some what flat head of a white adult Snow Goose. The grin is
small even for a Lesser or Lesser x Ross. No black primaries. Possible
Snow x Domestic sp? Any thoughts?

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Date: Thu Jun 2 2016 17:06 pm
From: pomarine AT earthlink.net
 
I agree with Brendan. Goldfinch was my first thought after listening to the original audio. I've heard them give shorter songs like this one every now and again here in western Pennsylvania.

Geoff Malosh
Pittsburgh, PA







-------- Original message --------From: Brendan Fogarty Date:06/02/2016 17:40 (GMT-05:00) To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Hi everyone,
To me this closely recalls an American Goldfinch giving abbreviated songs.
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2632...

Best,Brendan Fogarty

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:40 PM, Tony Futcher wrote:


I am far from great with songs, but I just don't hear Indigo in this
call. I get a sense of American Redstart - which, as the saying goes -
"If you're not sure what it is, it's probably a redstart", or maybe an
Magnolia Warbler?

Just a couple of suggestions. Look forward to what other ideas come in.

Tony Futcher

Hyattsville, MD


On 6/2/2016 10:35 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs like this before.
>
> Thanks for sharing and good birding!
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris T-H
>
> On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . wrote:
>
> Hello ID experts,
> A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later.
> The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County.
> I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
> Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0> https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> Good birding,
> Paul Heveran
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> --
> Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
>

--
Tony Futcher
Hyattsville, MD


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Date: Thu Jun 2 2016 16:51 pm
From: 000000dca2d16fd3-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hi everyone,
To me this closely recalls an American Goldfinch giving abbreviated songs.
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2632...

Best,Brendan Fogarty

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:40 PM, Tony Futcher wrote:


I am far from great with songs, but I just don't hear Indigo in this
call. I get a sense of American Redstart - which, as the saying goes -
"If you're not sure what it is, it's probably a redstart", or maybe  an
Magnolia Warbler?

Just a couple of suggestions. Look forward to what other ideas come in.

Tony Futcher

Hyattsville, MD


On 6/2/2016 10:35 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs like this before.
>
> Thanks for sharing and good birding!
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris T-H
>
> On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . wrote:
>
> Hello ID experts,
> A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later.
> The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County.
> I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
> Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> Good birding,
> Paul Heveran
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> --
> Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
>

--
Tony Futcher
Hyattsville, MD


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html




Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Date: Thu Jun 2 2016 13:40 pm
From: tonyfutcher1 AT verizon.net
 
I am far from great with songs, but I just don't hear Indigo in this
call. I get a sense of American Redstart - which, as the saying goes -
"If you're not sure what it is, it's probably a redstart", or maybe an
Magnolia Warbler?

Just a couple of suggestions. Look forward to what other ideas come in.

Tony Futcher

Hyattsville, MD


On 6/2/2016 10:35 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs like this before.
>
> Thanks for sharing and good birding!
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris T-H
>
> On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . wrote:
>
> Hello ID experts,
> A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later.
> The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County.
> I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
> Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0
> Any help is greatly appreciated.
> Good birding,
> Paul Heveran
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> --
> Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
>

--
Tony Futcher
Hyattsville, MD


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Date: Thu Jun 2 2016 9:46 am
From: cth4 AT cornell.edu
 
Hi Paul,

Despite not having the characteristic sequence of slow paired notes, this has all the signature qualities (timbre) of Indigo Bunting. Plus, the habitat looks right, as well. I have heard Indigo Buntings singing slightly atypical songs like this before.

Thanks for sharing and good birding!

Sincerely,
Chris T-H

On Jun 2, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Heveran . wrote:

Hello ID experts,
A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later.
The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County.
I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Good birding,
Paul Heveran


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

--
Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes
Field Applications Engineer
Bioacoustics Research Program, Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Road, Ithaca, New York 14850
W: 607-254-2418 M: 607-351-5740 F: 607-254-1132
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/b...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Mystery Warbler Song (audio only), southeast Pennsylvania
Date: Thu Jun 2 2016 9:27 am
From: hheveran AT hotmail.com
 
Hello ID experts,
A warbler whose song I didn't recognize was singing in a patch of trees behind my mechanic's garage on June 1st around 2 P.M. It was not singing at that location three hours later.
The closest warbler I can think of is Nashville, but it doesn't sound quite right for that and I think Nashville breeds a little farther north than Montgomery County.
I consulted with a talented birder by ear and he is not sure of the ID.
Here are links to the audio recording and a Google Maps location of the bird. Unfortunately the recording has some background noise due to the truck repair facility behind me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tmcphi4invt9r4/warbler%20pennsburg%2006_01_16.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a28k921synx9k8f/Mystery_Warbler_Pennsburg_%2006_01_16.JPG?dl=0
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Good birding,
Paul Heveran


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 12:33 pm
From: hawkowl AT hotmail.com
 
Hi Ken,

Without hesitation, I would call this a Dusky. I hear many Hammond's and Dusky in Alberta, where I live. And over the past few weeks, I've been in southern British Columbia, where I've also been getting a number of Grays. From where I was standing the other day, I had all three species going at the same time, which was fun!

Jason Rogers
Calgary


> Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 04:55:00 +0000
> From: kschnei1 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them.
>
>
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
>
>
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.
>
>
> What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> San Francisco, CA
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 4:46 am
From: sibleyguides AT gmail.com
 
Hi Ken,

This is definitely a Dusky Flycatcher, the clear rising phrase is
diagnostic, first heard (and visible in the spectrogram) at 18 seconds in
your recording. All individuals should be identifiable by song, and Arch
McCallum has put together an excellent guide to western Empid sounds here:

http://www.appliedbioacoustics...

Best,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Ken R. Schneider
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
> mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can
> sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and
> I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
> two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
> with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
> species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
> trouble distinguishing them.
>
>
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
>
>
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
> "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
> but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.
>
>
> What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing
> empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
> letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
> them?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> San Francisco, CA
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 1:57 am
From: tjanzen AT comcast.net
 
Dear Ken,
http://www.xeno-canto.org/3160... and http://www.xeno-canto.org/3160... are
fairly similar to what I generally hear in Oregon for Hammond's Flycatchers.
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1616... sounds fairly typical for what I hear for
Dusky Flycatchers in Oregon. I think that your bird sounds more typical of
a Dusky Flycatcher. To my ear, the first note in the song of Hammond's
Flycatcher has a more striking burry quality to it than the first note in
the song of Dusky Flycatcher. That is one of the ways that I separate these
two species.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ken R. Schneider
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 9:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers

Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can
sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I
often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
trouble distinguishing them.


I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
"first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.


What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing
empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
them?


Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Fri May 27 2016 23:55 pm
From: kschnei1 AT hotmail.com
 
Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them.


I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.


What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them?


Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 20:32 pm
From: ryanbrady10 AT hotmail.com
 
Many thanks to all for the input and continued discussion. It is extremely appreciated and informative.

Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
http://www.pbase.com/rbrady

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Alvaro Jaramillo
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 4:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Hello,
Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I could not see it.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao@coastside.net]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian,
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 18:36 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Hello, 
Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I could not see it.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao@coastside.net]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian,
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 16:59 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Joe and all -

We had the same word-of-mouth information about this Farallon
specimen (Ned Johnson also concurred with obscurus) but I could not
locate it during thorough searches of the CAS, MVZ, and PRBO
collections during the late 1980s sometime. It had evidently been
sent around and at some point was never returned. I am still hopeful
that it will turn up again, but for now there is no opportunity to
examine or sample it.

Re the Wisconsin bird, as I mentioned earlier, the molt pattern and
extent of wear on the juvenile p1-p3 and s1-s4, the formative p4-p10,
s5-s7, and rectrices, and (especially) the first-alternate s8 (on
both wings) is consistent with northern-breeding occidentalis at this
time of year. This quite contrasts with the two late-June Tropical
Kingbirds from last year, which included an adult finishing molt
(Minnesota) and a first-cycle bird that still retained juvenile outer
primaries (Ontario), more consistent with molt timing and wear from
Austral populations.

Peter

At 12:48 PM 5/23/2016, Joseph Morlan wrote:
>Peter,
>
>My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
>1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
>ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
>race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.
>
>Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
>of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....
>
>http://digitallibrary.amnh.org...
>
>The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
>it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
>be a genuine vagrant. It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
>Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
>molecular testing might shed further light on the record.
>
>I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
>attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America. Some are listed
>by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes." They should probably be
>reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...
>
>https://sora.unm.edu/node/1133...
>
>
>On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle wrote:
>
> >Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
> >Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
> >My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
> >patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
> >>To: "R.D. Everhart"
> >>From: Peter Pyle
> >>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >>
> >>Hi Roger and all -
> >>
> >>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
> >>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
> >>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
> >>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
> >>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
> >>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
> >>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
> >>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
> >>show up as well.
> >>
> >>Peter
> >>
> >>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
> >>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
> >>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
> >>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
> >>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
> >>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
> >>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
> >>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
> >>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
> >>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
> >>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
> >>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
> >>
> >>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
> >>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
> >>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
> >>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
> >>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
> >>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
> >>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
> >>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
> >>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
> >>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
> >>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
> >>
> >>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
> >>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
> >>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
> >>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
> >>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
> >>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
> >>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
> >>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
> >>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
> >>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
> >>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
> >>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
> >>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
> >>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
> >>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
> >>
> >>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
> >>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
> >>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
> >>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
> >>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
> >>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
> >>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
> >>of molt timing and age.
> >>
> >>
> >>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
> >>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
> >>>posted them at
> >>>
> >>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
> >>>
> >>>Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>>Roger Everhart
> >>>Apple Valley, MN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---- Original Message ----
> >>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
> >>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
> >>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
> >>>
> >>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
> >>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
> >>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
> >>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
> >>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
> >>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
> >>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
> >>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
> >>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
> >>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
> >>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
> >>> >
> >>> >Peter
> >>> >
> >>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>> >>Hey everyone-
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
> >>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
> >>> >>photos that I have posted here:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
> >>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Roger Everhart
> >>> >>Apple Valley, MN
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>--
>Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 14:48 pm
From: jmorlan AT gmail.com
 
Peter,

My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.

Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....

http://digitallibrary.amnh.org...

The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
be a genuine vagrant. It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
molecular testing might shed further light on the record.

I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America. Some are listed
by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes." They should probably be
reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...

https://sora.unm.edu/node/1133...


On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle wrote:

>Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
>Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
>My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
>patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
>
>Peter
>
>>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>>To: "R.D. Everhart"
>>From: Peter Pyle
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>
>>Hi Roger and all -
>>
>>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
>>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
>>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
>>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
>>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
>>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
>>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
>>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
>>show up as well.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
>>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
>>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
>>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
>>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
>>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
>>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
>>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
>>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
>>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
>>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
>>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>>
>>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
>>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
>>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
>>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
>>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
>>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
>>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
>>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
>>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
>>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
>>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>>
>>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
>>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
>>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
>>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
>>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
>>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
>>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
>>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
>>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
>>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
>>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
>>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
>>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>>
>>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
>>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
>>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
>>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
>>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
>>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
>>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
>>of molt timing and age.
>>
>>
>>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>>posted them at
>>>
>>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
>>>
>>>Hope this helps.
>>>
>>>Roger Everhart
>>>Apple Valley, MN
>>>
>>>
>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
>>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
>>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>>
>>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>>> >
>>> >Peter
>>> >
>>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>> >>Hey everyone-
>>> >>
>>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>>> >>
>>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>>> >>
>>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>>> >>
>>> >>Roger Everhart
>>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>> >
>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:34 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Brian, 
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:19 am
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.

Peter

>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>To: "R.D. Everhart"
>From: Peter Pyle
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
>Hi Roger and all -
>
>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
>show up as well.
>
>Peter
>
>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>
>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>
>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>
>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
>of molt timing and age.
>
>
>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>posted them at
>>
>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Roger Everhart
>>Apple Valley, MN
>>
>>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>
>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>> >
>> >Peter
>> >
>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>> >>Hey everyone-
>> >>
>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>> >>
>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>> >>
>> >>Roger Everhart
>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>> >
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:13 am
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about
some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact
> the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance
> migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what one
> characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been
> studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they
> occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using
> their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing
> the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall
> into a middle ground category where the physical features are not
> definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID
> some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of
> individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head
> shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of
> the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals
> are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes,
> but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not
> show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each
> pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long,
> heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have
> only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows
> a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not
> approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave
> pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown
> that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth
> from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to
> describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher
> crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is
> typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is
> agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two
> calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds
> that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show
> how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if
> you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but
> square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating
> some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short,
> thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I
> would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a
> first state record usually requires some more concrete information for
> acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed
> Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme
> Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow
> forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in
> Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only
> a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did
> manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has
> only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a
> Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species
> level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:02 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
All, 
Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it. Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.

In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at left: Tropical at right. http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html.

The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 10:33 am
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I concur with first-spring TRKI (nice eccentric pattern) and would
add that it appears to be a female by the shape of the formative
outer primary.

Peter

At 09:26 PM 5/22/2016, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Hey Ryan:
>
>First off, your bird seems to be a second-calendar-year beast, if I
>read Pyle (1997) correctly, due to the obvious molt limit in the ss.
>
>Wing formula is useful in this differentiation, so it's unfortunate
>that the open-wing shots aren't the best. However, in pic 8383, the
>right wing seems to be shown well enough for me to take a stab at
>it. While it's difficult to be certain where the tip of p10 is,
>precisely, p5 seems obviously not much shorter than p6. The same
>p5-p6 relationship seems to be shown by pic 8353. That should argue
>strongly that the bird is a Tropical.
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Cut Bank, MT
>www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering
>http://cowyebird.blogspot.com
>
> > On May 22, 2016, at 21:23, Ryan Brady wrote:
> >
> > We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior
> shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized
> and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware
> it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
> >
> >
> > http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
> >
> >
> > Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals?
> Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was
> initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos)
> and none for either at species level.
> >
> > Thanks for any input you can provide.
> >
> >
> > Ryan Brady
> > Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 10:25 am
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood. 

In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at left: Tropical at right. http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html.

The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 23:31 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Ryan,

In my opinion, many of the profile shots of this bird's bill are strongly suggestive, if not diagnostic for Tropical Kingbird. There are certainly birds that are tweeners in terms of apparent bill length and shape, but this does not fall into that category. In particular, photos 8453, 8455, 8456, 8457 and 8481 capture what I would characterize as the classic Tropical Kingbird bill shape and length. To my eye, Tropicals generally show noticeably longer bills than Couch's and the base to tip taper is not as apparent. Couch's have a shorter bill that usually looks proportionally thick at the base (probably due to shorter overall length) and is more steeply tapered from base to tip.

There are some other features that I think also support this being a Tropical Kingbird. I find that Couch's Kingbirds often appear to have a more peaked crown profile and are perhaps darker gray on the head with a slightly stronger blackish mask through the eye. This bird seems to have a flatter crown profile and is paler gray on the head and has a less conspicuous mask than I would expect to see on a Couch's. The tail also looks strongly notched. According to some sources, Tropicals have a more deeply notched tail than Couch's.

For the past five years I've spent 7-9 days each November in the Lower Rio Grande Valley, where both species can be readily found. I've taken hundreds of photos and spent many hours studying both species, typically confirming identifications with vocalizations. Some of the other regular leaders at the Rio Grande Valley Birding Festival have similarly studied these two kingbirds. Several agree that there are some noticeable structural differences, particularly as they relate to bill length and shape, that can be used to separate many individuals of these two species with virtual certainty. I also see Tropical Kingbirds most years here in Oregon, where they appear annually during late fall. There are no Oregon records for Couch's. The fall birds we get typically show a bill shape and length that is near identical to this bird.

Here is link to some specimen photos taken at Cornell. The profile shot showing the comparative bill length and shape illustrates what I was describing about the bill profile of Tropical compared to Couch's.
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/c...

Dave Irons


> Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 03:23:52 +0000
> From: ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 23:27 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hey Ryan:

First off, your bird seems to be a second-calendar-year beast, if I read Pyle (1997) correctly, due to the obvious molt limit in the ss.

Wing formula is useful in this differentiation, so it's unfortunate that the open-wing shots aren't the best. However, in pic 8383, the right wing seems to be shown well enough for me to take a stab at it. While it's difficult to be certain where the tip of p10 is, precisely, p5 seems obviously not much shorter than p6. The same p5-p6 relationship seems to be shown by pic 8353. That should argue strongly that the bird is a Tropical.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Cut Bank, MT
www.aba.org/photoquiz/
www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com

> On May 22, 2016, at 21:23, Ryan Brady wrote:
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 22:34 pm
From: ryanbrady10 AT hotmail.com
 
We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles. 


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
Date: Fri May 20 2016 5:01 am
From: mbstowe AT miriameaglemon.com
 
Hi, all!

FWIW, that excellent call note recording sounds NOTHING like any Common Yellowthroat I've ever heard, so unless there's a real difference in local COYE dialects, I would feel comfortable with Andrew's call (no pun intended) on that alone!

Mary Beth Stowe
Alamo, TX
www.miriameaglemon.com



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Spencer
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI - Yellowthroat ID

I think what is happening is that the person questioning the ID (the ebird
reviewer) saw that the book says Bahama Yellowthroat is supposed to have a yellow belly, and that they are used to some of the other subspecies that DO have a yellow belly, so they assumed that this must be a Common Yellowthroat because it does NOT have a yellow belly. But as you say, I believe the preponderance of the evidence points towards Bahama Yellowthroat.

Hopefully I can get some more pictures of the species from the other islands I'll be visiting for comparison.


Andrew

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM, DPratt14 wrote:

> Hello birders:
>
>
> What's the problem here? It would be far more questionable to have a
> territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat. This bird
> looks just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,
> I photographed in the same general locality some years ago. Other
> marks include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that
> trails off the posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which
> has a rounded lower rear edge of the mask.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


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