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ABA's Birding News >> ID Frontiers

ID Frontiers bird news by date

Updated on April 22, 2014, 3:15 pm

Want to easily find posts that mention ABA rare birds? Choose a code below:

ABA Code 2 Birds  |  ABA Code 3 Birds  |  ABA Code 4 Birds  |  ABA Code 5 Birds


22 Apr: @ 15:11:53 Re: Potential Neotropic Cormorant, Hunterdon County [karlson3]
22 Apr: @ 13:20:48 Re: Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA [Lethaby, Nick]
22 Apr: @ 13:17:11 Re: Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA [Dick Cannings]
22 Apr: @ 06:35:14  Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA [Lee G R Evans]
21 Apr: @ 16:23:43 Re: peep question [karlson3]
16 Apr: @ 19:28:55  Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos [Deborah Allen]
16 Apr: @ 19:28:47 Re: peep question [Jeff Gilligan]
16 Apr: @ 19:25:38 Re: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos [Peter Pyle]
16 Apr: @ 17:11:00 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Mike O'Keeffe]
16 Apr: @ 17:10:51 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Peter Pyle]
16 Apr: @ 14:54:31 Re: Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Kevin McLaughlin]
16 Apr: @ 12:21:29  Help with Red-breasted Merganser [Robert DeCandido PhD]
16 Apr: @ 12:20:17 Re: Kelp vs. Western [Alvaro Jaramillo]
16 Apr: @ 02:41:22 Re: peep question [David Irons]
15 Apr: @ 18:16:16 Re: European Golden Plover [COLIN BRADSHAW]
15 Apr: @ 17:23:14 Re: European Golden Plover [Killian Mullarney]
15 Apr: @ 15:31:24  peep question [Lethaby, Nick]
15 Apr: @ 15:31:16 Re: European Golden Plover [Lee G R Evans]
15 Apr: @ 14:51:38  European Golden Plover [Harvey Tomlinson]
15 Apr: @ 01:15:35  Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood]
14 Apr: @ 13:02:23  ADMIN: BirdWG01 list problems [Chuck Otte]
14 Apr: @ 08:10:52  1st year yellow-legged Gull or strange LBBG? [Suzanne Sullivan]
13 Apr: @ 22:38:13  Kelp vs. Western [Noah Arthur]
13 Apr: @ 03:41:21  Salutations! [Kristen and Mitchell Harris]
10 Apr: @ 19:16:15 Re: possible Ring-billed Gull? [Peter Adriaens]
10 Apr: @ 16:53:18 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Andy Kratter]
10 Apr: @ 16:20:31 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Wayne Hoffman]
10 Apr: @ 13:15:35 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
10 Apr: @ 11:45:08 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Blake Mathys]
10 Apr: @ 09:17:52 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
10 Apr: @ 09:13:45 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [julian hough]
10 Apr: @ 07:22:38 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [edboyd1959]
09 Apr: @ 20:11:17 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Christopher Vogel]
09 Apr: @ 18:46:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Lethaby, Nick]
09 Apr: @ 18:11:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 16:26:30 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Tony leukering]
09 Apr: @ 16:16:09 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Tony leukering]
09 Apr: @ 15:39:48 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
09 Apr: @ 15:04:42 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 14:31:37 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Lethaby, Nick]
09 Apr: @ 13:56:38 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Peter Pyle]
09 Apr: @ 13:01:14 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Mark Stackhouse]
09 Apr: @ 13:00:54 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Noah Arthur]
09 Apr: @ 12:14:14 Re: possible Ring-billed Gull? [Amar Ayyash]
09 Apr: @ 08:31:10 Re: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [Paul Lehman]
09 Apr: @ 00:19:37  Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey [John Puschock]
08 Apr: @ 06:55:56  possible Ring-billed Gull? [Neil Davidson]
07 Apr: @ 18:13:02  Hummingbird, Delaware, USA [Ted Floyd]
07 Apr: @ 17:19:02  Black-eared vs Black (Pariah) Kite - Identification [Robert DeCandido PhD]
06 Apr: @ 17:34:11  Estrilda waxbills in Northern Tanzania [Joseph Morlan]





Subject: Potential Neotropic Cormorant, Hunterdon County
Date: Tue Apr 22 2014 15:11 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Sam and all:
I was away in Texas when these posts came through and decided that I would post when I returned home. I have been carefully studying these two species together along the Texas coast for the last 15 years, and have compared them in side by side situations and photos during this time, and figured I would see a runt Double=cested Cormorant when I opened the photos. When I opened the photos, I saw a perfectly fine Neotropic Cormorant in immature plumage. The head and bill are quite small in this bird, and totally consistent with Neotropic, and the neck length is comparatively short as well, similar to Neotropic. The body is slighter in structure than Double-crested, and the very long tail is outside the range of any Double-crested, and perfect for Neotropic. Peter Pyle summed up the plumage concerns regarding shape of back feathers that is shared between the two species in juvenile and SY plumage, and the molt strategy which is better for Neotropic. After comparing the two species side by side this week in Texas, this is perfectly fine Neotropic Cormorant, and I applaud the observer for noting the differences, and for getting a great shot. I also looked at the extent of facial skin and configuration of the gape on many immature Neotropics in Texas, and there is variability in the pure Neotropic population, and not one model to use as an absolute for this ID or any other immature bird. There is no interbreeding of these two species in Texas, at least at the present time, and the High Island rookery has several hundred Neotropics and not a single Double-crested interested in moving into this tight communal nest colony.

I recently spent about four hours at the rookery in Boynton Beach Florida where Neotropic and Double-crested Cormorants have been interbreeding for the last 3 years or so (probably longer, but documented three years ago), and found at least two full adult Neotropics breeding with what looked like hybrids of the two species. I personally noted about ten hybrids of various sizes, with head and bill shapes and tail lengths more consistent with Neotropic, and facial skin intensity of color and shape in between the two species, but closer to Double-crested. I only noted birds as hybrids that conformed to the shape and structure of Neotropic, with back crosses of various levels probably all around the rookery. Seeing that these birds probably raise two or three clutches per year, there are probably more than 30 hybrids present, with many more to come. It seemed as if the pure adult breeding Neotropics with perfect plumage and structural features of that species were favoring smaller hybrids with Neotropic features to breed with rather than pure, much larger Double-cresteds to breed with, but I can't speak for the possible hybrids that took on the physical features of Double-crested. I documented about 6-8 hybrids that showed obvious physical features of Neotropic, but had extensive orange facial skin of various intensity that continued to the eye, as in Double-crested. Florida is going to have real problem with hybrids, but this population is non-migratory, and the chances of any of these hybrids leaving Florida is very low at this time. The NJ birds shows none of the hybrid features that I noted and photographed in Florida this past January.

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sam Galick"
To: NJBIRDS@Princeton.EDU
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 12:55:46 PM
Subject: Potential Neotropic Cormorant, Hunterdon County

--
Sam Galick
Cape May, NJ
sam.galick@gmail.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/s...

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Paul Guris
> Date: April 10, 2014 at 10:49:15 AM EDT
> To: Samuel Galick
> Subject: Potential Neotropic Cormorant in Clinton, NJ
>
> Rob Fergus photographed a distant cormorant late in the day that he thought had potential to be a Neotropic Cormorant. It was refound with much better photos being taken. The bird is at a place called DeMott Pond in Clinton, NJ (Hunterdon County).
>
> Discussions on ID can be found in the ID-Frontiers list. The marks seem to be lining up better for Neotropic. Of course it's a subadult, just to keep things interesting.
> http://birding.aba.org/maillis...
>
>
> -PAG
>
>
> --
> Paul A. Guris
> See Life Paulagics
> PO Box 161
> Green Lane, PA 18054
> 215-234-6805
> www.paulagics.com
> paulagics.com@gmail.com
> info@paulagics.com

List archives: https://lists.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=NJBIRDS
How to report NJ bird sightings:


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA
Date: Tue Apr 22 2014 13:20 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
Lee:

I think the increase is most likely due to the following:


1. The bird is now regarded as a good species in the UK and Europe, so there is an incentive to look for them.

2. There are now known id criteria for how to identify them.

3. There are now accepted records which makes acceptance of subsequent claims much more likely.

For example, I remember claiming a Montague's Harrier at "the site in SE Wexford" back in the early 80s. It was rejected (rightly) most likely because we pointed out the structure was not particularly lightweight and not that different from a Hen Harrier. Was that a Northern Harrier? While I remembering kicking around that idea, we simply didn't know enough back then to make that kind of claim.

As you are perhaps implying, variation in Hen Harriers may be greater than anticipated with a tiny % conforming to criteria thought to be good for N. Harriers. However, I would think points 1-3 above are a good explanation. Think of the situation with Pallid Swifts. This was once regarded as ultra rare, until it became apparent that most (all?) late autumn swifts in the UK were in fact probably Pallids. The subsequent increase in records was purely due to awareness and better id skills.

Nick

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Cannings
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:26 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA

Hi Lee et al.:
According to Breeding Bird Survey data in Canada, the population has been declining steadily over the last 40 years. This survey is limited by roads and observers, though, so doesn't cover the northern half (or two-thirds?) of Canada, where a lot of harriers breed. You can see the data at
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ron-bbs/P005/A001/?lang=em=s&r=NOHA&p=L&t670

regards
Dick Cannings
Penticton, BC

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lee G R Evans
Sent: April-22-14 3:50 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA

Is anybody in a position to be able to inform me of the population dynamics of the NORTHERN HARRIER (aka NORTH AMERICAN MARSH HAWK) in the USA? Have they undergone a population explosion in recent years or are they in serious decline like their European counterpart the Hen Harrier.

The reason I ask is because here in Britain and Ireland we are seeing a major upsurge in records of this species (for example, at least 15 records in 4 years, including perhaps 4 different individuals at just one location in SE Ireland) which seems quite incredible for this medium-sized raptor. Either there has been some dramatic expansion in range and numbers or clinal variation between the two forms is far more complicated or misunderstood than we currently understand. Be interested in any information

Very best wishes

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - www.uk400clubonline.co.uk
British Birding Association - http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....
Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information - http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements - http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....
Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News - http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange - http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA
Date: Tue Apr 22 2014 13:17 pm
From: dickcannings AT shaw.ca
 
Hi Lee et al.:

According to Breeding Bird Survey data in Canada, the population has been
declining steadily over the last 40 years. This survey is limited by roads
and observers, though, so doesn't cover the northern half (or two-thirds?)
of Canada, where a lot of harriers breed. You can see the data at

http://www.ec.gc.ca/ron-bbs/P005/A001/?lang=e

&m=s&r=NOHA&p=L&t670



regards

Dick Cannings

Penticton, BC



From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Lee G R Evans
Sent: April-22-14 3:50 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA



Is anybody in a position to be able to inform me of the population dynamics
of the NORTHERN HARRIER (aka NORTH AMERICAN MARSH HAWK) in the USA? Have
they undergone a population explosion in recent years or are they in serious
decline like their European counterpart the Hen Harrier.



The reason I ask is because here in Britain and Ireland we are seeing a
major upsurge in records of this species (for example, at least 15 records
in 4 years, including perhaps 4 different individuals at just one location
in SE Ireland) which seems quite incredible for this medium-sized raptor.
Either there has been some dramatic expansion in range and numbers or clinal
variation between the two forms is far more complicated or misunderstood
than we currently understand. Be interested in any information



Very best wishes



You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - www.uk400clubonline.co.uk

British Birding Association - http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....

Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....

Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Population Dynamics of Northern Harrier in the USA
Date: Tue Apr 22 2014 6:35 am
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
Is anybody in a position to be able to inform me of the population dynamics
of the NORTHERN HARRIER (aka NORTH AMERICAN MARSH HAWK) in the USA? Have
they undergone a population explosion in recent years or are they in serious
decline like their European counterpart the Hen Harrier.

The reason I ask is because here in Britain and Ireland we are seeing a
major upsurge in records of this species (for example, at least 15 records in
4 years, including perhaps 4 different individuals at just one location in
SE Ireland) which seems quite incredible for this medium-sized raptor.
Either there has been some dramatic expansion in range and numbers or clinal
variation between the two forms is far more complicated or misunderstood than
we currently understand. Be interested in any information

Very best wishes

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: peep question
Date: Mon Apr 21 2014 16:23 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Jeff, Nick and all:
Welcome to the world of East Coast Semipalmated Sandpipers. This very fine-tipped, drooping bill is consistent with numbers of Semis that breed in the Quebec tundra, but this type of bill is almost never seen in the interior US or Texas, and definitely not seen in the Pacific Coast region. When I worked on the Alaskan tundra as a shorebird biologist from 1992-95, I never saw a Semi with a bill like this, and David Mizrahi has a bander's guide that explains that Semi bills are clinal in length and shape when you move from West to East in breeding ranges in North America. We see Semis with bills like this every year in NJ, but they always take others by surprise when photos of them pop up on forums. A truly representative photo of a number of Semis with bills like this, but longer and more decurved, exists on page 147 of The Shorebird Guide, and it proves that some female Semis have bills that are just as long as Western males, but they are definitely finer-tipped and more decurved than most male Westerns. Male Westerns (and I just looked at and studied about 5000 of them in East Texas) have thicker, straighter bills than these East Coast Semis. This is definitely a Semi (sex undetermined since the bill appears short, and right in the middle range of length for this species). The plumage is perfect for a very bright breeding Semi, with the red cap and cheek on the bright side for all breeding Semis, and the upperpart feather fringes on the rusty rather than ginger-colored average of Semis, but the rust is restricted to the feathers edges and not the basal part of the feather, like in Western. The underparts are mostly clean except for a the fine streaked bib, but many breeding Semis can show a good number of streaks (not chevrons) on the upper and lower flanks. Thanks for bringing this up, but we see Semis like this every spring in NJ. Another reason for the bright rusty look could be SRGB mode of digital files, which accentuates the color tone of the photo, or just over saturation on the processing. Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jeff Gilligan"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 7:59:08 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] peep question


On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:57 PM, "Lethaby, Nick" < nlethaby@ti.com > wrote:




All:
While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled “Minature Western Sandpiper”:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesn’t look typical for a Semipalmated.
Nick Lethaby
office: +1 805 562 5106
mobile: +1 805 284 6200
e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...




No - it does not look right for a Western, or like a Semipalmated should look like in my experience, though I have seen far fewer of them in spring than I do Westerns. I agree regarding your comments about the absence of chevrons and the rather dull coloration of the bird. The bill looks too finely pointed for either species, and very short for a Western.

Jeff Gilligan
Oregon

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:28 pm
From: dallenyc AT earthlink.net
 
Hi All,

Thank you for all the helpful comments.

Here are two more photos of the Red-breasted Merganser in question:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8969&photog=1

and the first photo posted:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

I hope the two additional photos will suffice to nail down the i.d.

Deborah Allen

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: peep question
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:28 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 

On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:57 PM, "Lethaby, Nick" wrote:

> All:
>
> While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled Minature Western Sandpiper:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesnt look typical for a Semipalmated.
>
> Nick Lethaby
> office: +1 805 562 5106
> mobile: +1 805 284 6200
> e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


No - it does not look right for a Western, or like a Semipalmated should look like in my experience, though I have seen far fewer of them in spring than I do Westerns. I agree regarding your comments about the absence of chevrons and the rather dull coloration of the bird. The bill looks too finely pointed for either species, and very short for a Western.

Jeff Gilligan
Oregon


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with red-breasted Merganser - additional photos
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 19:25 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Deborah and all -

The wing photos (and another sent off-line by Peter Post) confirm it
a first-spring male. In this photo:

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1

The primaries appear worn and tapered (juvenal), the greater coverts
are rounded and have indistinct brownish tips (they are squared and
have more-distinct and blacker tips in adults), and there are two
generations of lesser coverts, rounder and browner juvenal and
more-squared and grayer formative feathers. It appears the middle
tertials have been replaced formative (as would be expected of a
first-cycle bird that had replaced all rectrices) and are white or
mostly white, indicating male (all tertials are brown in females).

Cheers,

Peter

At 04:28 PM 4/16/2014, Deborah Allen wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Thank you for all the helpful comments.
>
>Here are two more photos of the Red-breasted Merganser in question:
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8970&photog=1
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg8969&photog=1
>
>and the first photo posted:
>
>http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1
>
>I hope the two additional photos will suffice to nail down the i.d.
>
>Deborah Allen
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 17:11 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi all,

In the spirit of Easter I have started a project to bring the plates of
Robert Ridgway's Colour Standards and Colour Nomenclature (1912) back to
life in the modern sRBG Colour Space (the default colour pallet used by the
internet and all digital imaging devices). For those interested please read
more here...
http://birdingimagequalitytool...
ur-nomenclature.html

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

www.birdingimagequalitytool.blogspot.ie

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 17:10 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I agree with Kevin that this is likely a first-spring male as opposed to
an older female showing male-like characters in the head, but I'd prefer
to see the open wing to be absolutely certain.

The outer primaries look black and there appear to be no juvenal tail
feathers remaining, both suggesting adult (although a small proportion of
first-year birds replace all rectrices during the preformative molt). The
breast, back, and flank feathers appear somewhat uniform, not with obvious
brown juvenal feathers as typically occur in first-spring male diving
ducks, but appearance in these areas may also fit some first-spring males.
The newer-looking patch of flank feathers might suggest first-cycle but
might also occur in adults due either to an extra molt of these feathers
or of a protracted/suspended prebasic molt.

Favoring first-cycle male, the iris may be too red for an adult female,
and I'm not sure that females would show white shaft streaks to the
longest scapulars, whereas first-spring males may acquire white in these
feathers on the way to the adult male pattern (completely or primarily
white). The crest looks a bit weak, which may be more of a first-cycle
character than a female character.

If any open-wing shots have been taken it would be fairly straightforward
to confirm this as a first-cycle male (or not).

Peter

> Hi Robert.
>
> I had always been uncomfortable with Palmer's Handbook pointing to birds
> such as this being adult females in late winter and spring. Unless someone
> can explain this, I must differ. I have spent a concerted amount of time
> this past winter studying RBMs at the western end of Lake Ontario to try
> and
> resolve the situation in my own mind. I have looked at birds in the field
> and have also examined a great many photos. I will leave wing pattern
> alone
> here as the bird's posture has the scapulars covering the tertials and
> secondaries. The combination of a red eye, black around the eye and the
> "two-part" shaggy head plumage indicate a male in its second calendar
> year.
> Two points to add as well : the literature indicates that young males are
> very slow to attain adult-type plumage in first cycle i.e. the second year
> of life, thus are female-like further into the New Year than perhaps any
> other species of diving duck with the possible exception of Common
> Merganser; I will have to check further to see if any adult females can
> show
> such a well-developed male-type crest as displayed by this bird. The
> National Geographic guide for example, does not seem to differentiate
> between the sexes in that respect.
>
> Kevin McLaughlin,
> Hamilton, Ontario.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert DeCandido PhD
> Sent: April-16-14 12:59 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Help with Red-breasted Merganser
>
> Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
> NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?
>
> http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1
>
> just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 14:54 pm
From: kam50 AT shaw.ca
 
Hi Robert.

I had always been uncomfortable with Palmer's Handbook pointing to birds
such as this being adult females in late winter and spring. Unless someone
can explain this, I must differ. I have spent a concerted amount of time
this past winter studying RBMs at the western end of Lake Ontario to try and
resolve the situation in my own mind. I have looked at birds in the field
and have also examined a great many photos. I will leave wing pattern alone
here as the bird's posture has the scapulars covering the tertials and
secondaries. The combination of a red eye, black around the eye and the
"two-part" shaggy head plumage indicate a male in its second calendar year.
Two points to add as well : the literature indicates that young males are
very slow to attain adult-type plumage in first cycle i.e. the second year
of life, thus are female-like further into the New Year than perhaps any
other species of diving duck with the possible exception of Common
Merganser; I will have to check further to see if any adult females can show
such a well-developed male-type crest as displayed by this bird. The
National Geographic guide for example, does not seem to differentiate
between the sexes in that respect.

Kevin McLaughlin,
Hamilton, Ontario.


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert DeCandido PhD
Sent: April-16-14 12:59 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Help with Red-breasted Merganser

Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.

Thanks!

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Help with Red-breasted Merganser
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 12:21 pm
From: rdcny AT earthlink.net
 
Hi...some confusion exists over this individual in Central Park here in
NYC...what is the age/sex of this Red-breasted Merganser?

http://www.agpix.com/view_caption.php?image_idg7393&photog=1

just interested in accuracy...for the historical record.

Thanks!

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Kelp vs. Western
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 12:20 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Noah

Actually Kelp looks like an overgrown, thickset Lesser Black-backed Gull
save for the darker tail. They actually do not look like Western Gulls in
first cycle. I see Kelp Gulls pretty frequently, and have yet to come up
with anything that resembles one on the West Coast. I do think that it is a
bird that is very unlikely to be found on the West Coast vs. the East Coast
but I could be wrong.



Regards,



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Kelp vs. Western



I've been wondering about Kelp Gulls flying under the radar on the West
Coast lately. 1st-cycle Western and Kelp look so similar that it seems like
a young Kelp could easily go unnoticed, especially in the spring and summer
(which is winter for a Kelp Gull), when few people are out looking for
gulls. Does anyone know of good field marks for separating these two in
1st-cycle plumage?



Thanks!



Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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Subject: peep question
Date: Wed Apr 16 2014 2:41 am
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Nick,

The small-billed peep is strange. Doesn't look like a Western to me, as the bill is quite short and very delicate at the tip. The plumage is definitely not typical of a Western on this date.

Dave Irons

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:57:39 +0000
From: nlethaby@TI.COM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] peep question
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU









All:

While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled Minature Western Sandpiper:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesnt look typical for a Semipalmated.

Nick Lethaby
office: +1 805 562 5106
mobile: +1 805 284 6200
e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
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Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 18:16 pm
From: drcolin.bradshaw AT btinternet.com
 
It's very difficult to judge from the photos but if I found this bird in the UK, I'd be jumping up and down with excitement thinking I'd founddominica.

1. I can't see any EGP having white breast patches this size, I can't imagine many PGPs like this either.
2. The bird just looks too dainty for an EGP
3. The bill is too long for EGP
4. The flank colour [and perhaps even utcs] are a red herring as it hasn't moulted its underparts fully yet
5. The primaries look heavily abraded and my experience of 1st alt AGP is that they can look quite short winged

I suspect this is a moulting 1st alt AGP

cheers

Colin


________________________________
From: Harvey Tomlinson
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, 15 April 2014, 20:18
Subject: [BIRDWG01] European Golden Plover



Hi Birders,
This past Sept 2013 I
photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ .
I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home and did
some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
I posted the sighting
to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming confirmation of my
assessment.
But, an expert on
shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't take it any
further.
I was asked to send
photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos from the
Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined the
articleand decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote. It
would be a State record.
It seems the committee
held is bi-annual meetingtwo Sunday's past, yet for reasons unbeknownst to
me it did not make their docket.
They were reviewing
reports for the later half of 2013.
I did not
sendthis out to this list serve for opinionsso as not to cloud the
issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
There won't be another
committeevote until next fall.
I am asking for
opinions nowonly becausethe committee didn't vote on
it.
Hybrid and PGPL have
been mentioned, although structure and under tail coverts speak against PGPL.
IMHO
I did report on the
under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
photo.
Leave it out of the
equation for now. I think there is enough information on the photos to make an
assessment even though the quality is only fair and full of
artifacts.
Thanks if you do
respond,
Harvey
Tomlinson
Del
Haven, NJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
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Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 17:23 pm
From: ktmullarney AT gmail.com
 
Hello Harvey,

It is difficult to be certain what species of golden plover you observed at
Brigantine on 3rd September 2013, but I feel pretty certain it is not a
European. The single most incompatible (with EGPL) feature clearly visible
in a couple of your photos is the large size of the spots, or notches on
some of the more intact scapulars and wing coverts, best shown in this
image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/.../" rel="nofollow">https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

In alternate (breeding) plumage these feathers are always more finely
patterned in EGPL than in either AGPL or PGPL, such that if you are close
enough to actually count the number of 'spots' on the visible portion of
the scapular feathers you can generally see eight or more spots in EGPL,
six or less in the other two species. Of course some feathers will be
partly concealed, and others will be more exposed than usual, but
the difference in the overall pattern can usually be rather easily
determined, even at long range.

Regards,

Killian Mullarney
Ireland


On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Harvey Tomlinson wrote:

> Hi Birders,
>
> This past Sept 2013 I photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ.
> I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home and
> did some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
>
> I posted the sighting to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming
> confirmation of my assessment.
>
> But, an expert on shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't
> take it any further.
>
> I was asked to send photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos
> from the Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined
> the article and decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote.
> It would be a State record.
>
> It seems the committee held is bi-annual meeting two Sunday's past, yet
> for reasons unbeknownst to me it did not make their docket.
>
> They were reviewing reports for the later half of 2013.
>
> I did not send this out to this list serve for opinions so as not to cloud
> the issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
>
> There won't be another committee vote until next fall.
>
> I am asking for opinions now only because the committee didn't vote on it.
>
> Hybrid and PGPL have been mentioned, although structure and under tail
> coverts speak against PGPL. IMHO
>
> I did report on the under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
> photo.
>
> Leave it out of the equation for now. I think there is enough information
> on the photos to make an assessment even though the quality is only fair
> and full of artifacts.
>
> Thanks if you do respond,
>
> Harvey Tomlinson
>
> Del Haven, NJ
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673059685/in/set-72157633378691097
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: peep question
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 15:31 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
All:

While looking through the pictures of the possible European Golden Plover, I noticed this one labeled "Minature Western Sandpiper":

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I would be interested if everyone agrees that this is a Western Sandpiper as it looks rather dull for a May bird and is lacking dark flank chevrons. The bill doesn't look typical for a Semipalmated.

Nick Lethaby
office: +1 805 562 5106
mobile: +1 805 284 6200
e-mail: nlethaby@ti.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 15:31 pm
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
Harvey

Very difficult to make any meaningful deliberation with the available
images but my gut feeling would be that this is a PACIFIC rather than European
Golden Plover, although for an adult to be in such good plumage in September
is rather unusual for fulva, the greater percentage of Europeans also
heavily moulted by such a date. It appears to be quite small and long-legged in
some of the images, particularly compared with the Black-bellied Plover
alongside. A difficult one



You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding


Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
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(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
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Local Websites
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Subject: European Golden Plover
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 14:51 pm
From: ShearH2Os AT aol.com
 

Hi Birders,
This past Sept 2013 I photographed an interesting plover at Brigantine NJ.
I watched and took numerous photos for over an hour and when I got home
and did some more research came to the conclusion it was an EGPL.
I posted the sighting to Jersey Birds and received overwhelming
confirmation of my assessment.
But, an expert on shorebirds cast some doubt, so I pulled back and didn't
take it any further.
I was asked to send photos for an online ABA article, and received kudos
from the Cornell eBird team, but out of respect for this expert I declined
the article and decided to wait for the New Jersey Record Committee's vote.
It would be a State record.
It seems the committee held is bi-annual meeting two Sunday's past, yet
for reasons unbeknownst to me it did not make their docket.
They were reviewing reports for the later half of 2013.
I did not send this out to this list serve for opinions so as not to cloud
the issue, yet now it doesn't matter much.
There won't be another committee vote until next fall.
I am asking for opinions now only because the committee didn't vote on
it.
Hybrid and PGPL have been mentioned, although structure and under tail
coverts speak against PGPL. IMHO
I did report on the under wing color, which I saw 3x's, but do not have a
photo.
Leave it out of the equation for now. I think there is enough information
on the photos to make an assessment even though the quality is only fair
and full of artifacts.
Thanks if you do respond,
Harvey Tomlinson
Del Haven, NJ
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shearh2o/9673632995/in/set-72157633378691097
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
Date: Tue Apr 15 2014 1:15 am
From: paul.r.wood AT uk.pwc.com
 

I will be out of the office from 14/04/2014 until 22/04/2014.

I will respond to your message when I return.




Note: This is an automated response to your message BIRDWG01 Digest - 13
Apr 2014 to 14 Apr 2014 (#2014-58) sent on 15/04/2014 06:00:45. This is the
only notification you will receive while this person is away.

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Subject: ADMIN: BirdWG01 list problems
Date: Mon Apr 14 2014 13:02 pm
From: cotte AT ksu.edu
 
Good day BIRDWG01!

There are several announcements about the list. Please read and save for
future use.

Overnight 278 subscribers were removed from BIRDWG01 by the ListServ
computer because of onging issues with recent changes by Yahoo and the
way that they handle email (more on that in a second.) A few of you have
added yourselves back on, I just now added the rest of you back. The fact
that you are receiving this message indicates that you have been added back
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Problems with e-mail addresses from Yahoo are continuing today. Yahoos
policy change last week is also causing problems that affect e-mail
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You can read a technical explanation of why this occurs at:

http://www.computerworld.com/s...
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Because the problem occurs _every time_ a message from a Yahoo.com
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Other providers have "honored" Yahoos policy although they have not set
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If you have a Yahoo address, I encourage you to contact Yahoo.com support
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To repeat, if you are subscribed to the list with a Yahoo address your
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As always dont hesitate to contact the list owners if you have questions, but
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-----
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Subject: 1st year yellow-legged Gull or strange LBBG?
Date: Mon Apr 14 2014 8:10 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
All,

I would greatly appreciated if some of the Larus experts out there would be
willing to look at photos of the above mentioned gull and provide
comments. I think it might be a possible 1st year YLGU. It certainly
has some features that point towards LBBG but also lacks features also
pointing towards YLGU.

I tried to find similar aged LBBG and YLGU reliable photos on line of
the open wing but it proved to be difficult and inconclusive for the
most part. In fact most of the open wing shots I viewed indicate it is
indeed a YLGU. I was unable to get any standing shots of this bird
unfortunately .

This bird has solid dark wings, no light inner window on inner
primaries. Has no barring on the inner greater coverts often seen in
LBBG of this age. I believe an important id feature for LBBG. Also
little to no light edging to greater and medium coverts, another
typical LBBG feature. Does the lack of these field marks indicate
YLGU?

The tail is quite interesting. To me it seems to me to be very similar
to a young GBBG tail. I wonder if the tail is with in the range of
LBBG? After viewing photos on line and in Gulls of the World , the
extensive white in the tail and the spotting/wavy pattern indicate
more YLGU and not LBBG. It certainly seems to be in the range of
YLGU. The under tail coverts show the random chevrons as opposed to
barring, more like YLGU than LBBG?

The under wing is most curious since it does not seem to be typical of
either species. Although, this area appears to be quite ambiguous. You
can see some light baring or spotting but not strong by any means.

In photo 0086 you can see how the upper mandible curves down and the
fairly deep gonydeal angle more YLGU than LBBG.

Molt timing is probably important here but also seems all over the
place depending on sub-species. There does appear to be grayish
feathers coming in on mantle. I cropped in close on some photos to
show pattern on back and tail.

Here is the link - http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/l...
photos were taken at UMASS Lowell boathouse on Merrimac River.

Thank you in advance for any feed back.
Suzanne Sullivan
Wilmington MA
swampy435@gmail.com

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Subject: Kelp vs. Western
Date: Sun Apr 13 2014 22:38 pm
From: semirelicta AT yahoo.com
 
I've been wondering about Kelp Gulls flying under the radar on the West Coast lately. 1st-cycle Western and Kelplook so similar that it seems like a young Kelp could easily go unnoticed, especially in the spring and summer (which is winter for a Kelp Gull), when few people are out looking for gulls. Does anyone know of good field marks for separating these two in 1st-cycle plumage?

Thanks!

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Salutations!
Date: Sun Apr 13 2014 3:41 am
From: knmharris AT bellsouth.net
 





http://live2.factum.ch/best-offer/choose.php?zmrkwnmcp1796ra

























Kristen and Mitchell Harris


-----------------------



Sun, 13 Apr 2014 10:21:09

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Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 19:16 pm
From: p_adriaens AT yahoo.com
 
Hi Neil,


despite your misgivings about this bird's structure, and despite the two comments from America on your blog, this is still a Kamchatka Gull.

Kamtschatschensisis the largest and bulkiest taxon of Common/Mew Gull, and often has a bright pink bill base in its first winter, thus suggesting Ring-billed Gull. The structural features that you point out are still too subtle to use as true identification features, and fall within the variation of Kamchatka Gull. In fact, the long, sloping forehead favours kamtschatschensis.


Futher characters that point to Kamchatka Gull are the pattern of the underwing (dark brown lesser coverts, and extensive brown on axillaries), pattern of the median coverts on upper wing (brown vertical streaks, unlike the pointed, V-shaped anchor pattern in RB Gull), extensive brown spots on belly (more prominent than pattern on neck, while the reverse is usually true in Ring-billed), and the prominent white fringes on tertials.


Kind regards,
Peter

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:58 PM, Neil Davidson wrote:

I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
>I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
>range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
>these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
>billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
>corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
>billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
>kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
>I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-
>
>
>
>
>http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...
>
>
>
>The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
>as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
>can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
>rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
>masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
>but this is probably of little significance either way.
>
>
>
>So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
>very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
>deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
>look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
>such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
>from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
>common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
>projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
>narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
>appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
>conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
>along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
>contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
>long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
>it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
>I'm used to seeing.
>
>
>
>Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
>don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
>to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
>juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
>March.
>
>
>
>So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
>in knowing why I can rule it out.
>
>
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Neil Davidson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
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Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 16:53 pm
From: kratter AT flmnh.ufl.edu
 
Wayne et al.
There is a fourth possibility: the past few years Neotropic and Double-crested cormorants have had
mixed pairs in south Florida, and produced young. So a hybrid parental origin is not out of the
question. That should muddle things further. Sorry to throw out the "H" word.

Andy Kratter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 16:20 pm
From: whoffman AT peak.org
 
Hi -
I do not have a strong opinion on the the identity of this bird, but I
want to caution everyone that Double-crested Cormorants are among the North
American birds showing the most geographic variation in size, proportions,
and plumage (and several of the other most-variable birds may deserve
splitting - e.g., Cackling Goose, Hermit Thrush, Yellow Warbler). So, I
would be very careful applying information we know about molt timing,
details of feather shape etc. in one part of the species range to the whole
range. I see three viable hypotheses for the identity of this bird: 1)
it is a Neotropic Cormorant; 2) it is a fairly normal Double-crested
Cormorant vagrant from a distant population (e.g. Bahamas, S. Florida); and
3) it is an aberrant "local" Double-crested Cormorant. Distinguishing
between numbers 2 and 3 may be as difficult as between 1 and the others.

Wayne


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Peter Pyle wrote:

> The new photos allow a better assessment of age - it looks like a
> first-cycle bird (SY) undergoing the second prebasic molt. The tertials
> have been replaced (second basic) and contrast with an even panel of
> juvenal secondaries. It looks like inner primaries have also been replaced
> and molting, as would be expected with this pattern of tertial/secondary
> replacement. The wing coverts appear to be a combination of juvenal and
> incoming second basic, perhaps with some formative coverts as well. The
> head is undergoing molt and the older feathers may be a mixture of juvenal
> and formative.
>
> All of this equates better with Neotropic to me at this time of year.
> Double-crested (at least here in California) show much more bleached
> juvenal feathers now (including paler heads and breats) and are not this
> advanced in the second prebasic molt yet. If it wintered in NJ locally I
> would expect it to be only beginning the second prebasic now. Molt timing
> is more consistent with a bird that wintered farther south and began the
> molt in January or earlier, something that Neotropics do but not typically
> Double-cresteds.
>
> Regarding the shape of the back feathers an secondary coverts, juvenal
> feathers are similar between the two species (pointed). The more-pointed
> shape of Neotropical and more-rounded shape of Double-crested begins to be
> expressed in formative and second-basic feathers, and becomes fully
> advanced in definitive basic feathers. The newer second-basic feathers
> appear to look more pointed than the juvenal feathers, which could be
> another factor favoring Neotropic.
>
> Peter
>
>
> > When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall
> > impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me
> > strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller
> > and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I
> expect
> > for a NECO.
> >
> > Blake Mathys
> > ---------------------------------
> > http://blakemathys.com/
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
> > From: westwings@SISNA.COM
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this
> > bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon
> > the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or
> > how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very
> > good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being
> > common). Perhaps I should go take some.
> > With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday
> that
> > shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images.
> The
> > shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set
> > of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as
> the
> > identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this
> > bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> > Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d.
> > problem we face every winter here.
> > Mark
> >
> > Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas,
> > Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from
> > U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
> > CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 13:15 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
The new photos allow a better assessment of age - it looks like a
first-cycle bird (SY) undergoing the second prebasic molt. The tertials
have been replaced (second basic) and contrast with an even panel of
juvenal secondaries. It looks like inner primaries have also been replaced
and molting, as would be expected with this pattern of tertial/secondary
replacement. The wing coverts appear to be a combination of juvenal and
incoming second basic, perhaps with some formative coverts as well. The
head is undergoing molt and the older feathers may be a mixture of juvenal
and formative.

All of this equates better with Neotropic to me at this time of year.
Double-crested (at least here in California) show much more bleached
juvenal feathers now (including paler heads and breats) and are not this
advanced in the second prebasic molt yet. If it wintered in NJ locally I
would expect it to be only beginning the second prebasic now. Molt timing
is more consistent with a bird that wintered farther south and began the
molt in January or earlier, something that Neotropics do but not typically
Double-cresteds.

Regarding the shape of the back feathers an secondary coverts, juvenal
feathers are similar between the two species (pointed). The more-pointed
shape of Neotropical and more-rounded shape of Double-crested begins to be
expressed in formative and second-basic feathers, and becomes fully
advanced in definitive basic feathers. The newer second-basic feathers
appear to look more pointed than the juvenal feathers, which could be
another factor favoring Neotropic.

Peter


> When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall
> impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me
> strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller
> and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I expect
> for a NECO.
>
> Blake Mathys
> ---------------------------------
> http://blakemathys.com/
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
> From: westwings@SISNA.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this
> bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon
> the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or
> how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very
> good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being
> common). Perhaps I should go take some.
> With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that
> shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The
> shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set
> of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the
> identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this
> bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d.
> problem we face every winter here.
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas,
> Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from
> U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
> CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 11:45 am
From: blakemathys AT hotmail.com
 
When I looked at the original photos, I felt, based on the overall impression, that this NJ bird was a DCCO; however, the new photos push me strongly toward NECO. Overall these photos make the bird appear smaller and daintier to my eye, and the body proportions are exactly what I expect for a NECO.

Blake Mathys
---------------------------------
http://blakemathys.com/
---------------------------------


Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:51:07 -0600
From: westwings@SISNA.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being common). Perhaps I should go take some.
With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d. problem we face every winter here.
Mark

Mark Stackhousemark@westwings.comfrom Mexico:01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)001-801-518-5618001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)from U.S.011-52-323-285-1243 or1-801-518-56181-801-518-5618
CallSend SMSAdd to SkypeYou'll need Skype CreditFree via Skype
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 9:17 am
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
I mentioned the shape of those feathers in my original analysis of this bird, and, to me, it was the strongest mark in favor of DCCO, based upon the original photos. I can't comment on how consistent this mark is, or how much variation is possible, and unfortunately, I don't have a very good set of images for NECO here to use for analysis (the curse of being common). Perhaps I should go take some.

With regards to the NJ bird, a new set of images was posted yesterday that shows this mark, and all others, much better than the original images. The shape of the coverts/back feathers are clearly NECO-like in this new set of images, removing what I thought was the strongest point for DCCO as the identity of this bird. The new images make a much stronger case for this bird being a NECO. They can be seen here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Again, I appreciate all of the discussion and input, as this is an i.d. problem we face every winter here.

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 10, 2014, at 5:50 AM, edboyd1959@comcast.net wrote:

> Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?
>
> Double-crest
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> NeoTrop
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.
>
> Ed Boyd
> Westminster, MD
>
> From: "Mark Stackhouse"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> lol, Tony.
>
> Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?
>
> Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> All:
>
> Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> Mark et al.:
>
> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>
> All:
>
> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>
> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>
> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>
> Peter
>
>
> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
> than other cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
> more carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>
> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 9:13 am
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
I looked quickly at these feather shape features in the initial shots and couldn't determine accurately whether they were more pointed or more rounded...some of the upper scaps seemed to appear pointed but the images left me doubtful that I was assessing these correctly.
I don't have a good grasp on these two species, but one picture seems to show a long, wedge-shaped tail, so wouldn't that be the feature to focus on before subtleties of back feather shape. Is that tail too long for a DCC??

Julian

Julian Hough
New Haven, CT 06519
www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com


________________________________
From: "edboyd1959 AT COMCAST.NET"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey



Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?

Double-crest
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
NeoTrop
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.

Ed Boyd
Westminster, MD

________________________________

From: "Mark Stackhouse"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:

All:
>
>
>Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
>
>Tony
>
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Bad Axe, MI
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
>
>
>Mark et al.:
>>
>>
>>I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>>
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>
>>Tony Leukering
>>currently Bad Axe, MI
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>>
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>>
>>>What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>>
>>>How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>>
>>>Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>>
>>>Mark
>>>
>>>Mark Stackhouse
>>>mark@westwings.com
>>>from Mexico:
>>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>>from U.S.
>>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>All:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Nick
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>>>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>>>
>>>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>>>
>>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>>>
>>>It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>>>
>>>my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>>>
>>>Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>>>
>>>rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>>>
>>>greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>>>
>>>conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>>>
>>>Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>>>
>>>can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>>>
>>>acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>>>
>>>would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>>>
>>>some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>>>
>>>sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>>>
>>>and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>>>
>>>lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>>>
>>>completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>>>
>>>the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>>>
>>>tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>>>
>>>the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>>>
>>>the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>>>
>>>(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>>>
>>>than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>>>
>>>appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>>>
>>>reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>>>
>>>Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>>>
>>>the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>>>
>>>DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>>>
>>>examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>>>
>>>hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>>>
>>>range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>>>
>>>more carefully.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Mark Stackhouse
>>>>>
>>>mark@westwings.com
>>>>>
>>>from Mexico:
>>>>>
>>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>>>
>>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>>>>
>>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>>>
>>>1-801-518-5618
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>>>
>>>birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>>>
>>>One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>>>
>>>was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>>>
>>>research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>>>
>>>bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Thu Apr 10 2014 7:22 am
From: edboyd1959 AT comcast.net
 
Another point in this discussion that I have not seen brought up (and I may have missed a couple of posts) is the shape of the back feathers. The two attached photos were taken in early February near Puerto Morelos, Quintana Roo, Mexico. The two birds were sitting side by side a few yards apart. Double-crests have obtuse feathers that are nicely rounded, giving a scalloped appearance. Neotrops have longer, more sharply pointed back feathers. I assume that this is true in all cases, but it has been with the neotrops that I have been able to observe closely. Anyone else have information on this being a consistent field mark?

Double-crest
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
NeoTrop
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

From the images of the NJ bird, the feathering is much more aligned with those of the double-crested I photographed.

Ed Boyd
Westminster, MD

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Stackhouse"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:59:33 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:




All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering < greatgrayowl@aol.com > wrote:




Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective ( http://cfobirds.org/downloads/... ). Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse < westwings@SISNA.COM > wrote:




Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:



All:









Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.









Thanks,









Nick









-----Original Message-----




From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [ mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle




Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM




To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU




Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey









It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.









Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:




https://www.flickr.com/photos/...




It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.









Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.









Peter
















I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that








my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,








Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the








rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a








greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some








conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.








Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

















Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I








can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems








acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one








would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

















Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in








some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for








sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

















Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered








and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the








lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show








completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

















Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of








the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole








tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

















General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and








the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of








the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"








(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller








than other cormorants in the area.

















Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers








appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how








reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.








Perhaps others could comment on this.

















On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,








the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with








DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful








examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

















Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to








hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the








range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here








more carefully.


























Mark Stackhouse








mark@westwings.com








from Mexico:








01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)








001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.








011-52-323-285-1243 or








1-801-518-5618












































On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:




















































































There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young












birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.












One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and












was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further












research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ












bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

























Paul Lehman, San Diego



















































Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



















Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html




















Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html









Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html






Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 20:11 pm
From: glaucidium AT yahoo.com
 
It seems to me that the focus and discussion so far has been on the anterior portions of the bird, while the second and eighth photo seem to clearly (well, not so "clearly" in the second photo, but still obviously) show a cormorant with a tail that is too long to be a Double-crested's. 

When added to the facial features, which are not at all incongruous with those of a Neotropic Cormorant, it seems more of a stretch to try and turn this bird into a Double-crested, at least to me.

 
Cheers
CJV
Cape May, NJ


On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:42 PM, "Lethaby, Nick" wrote:

I would second Mark’s point here. It seems like if the Farallons bird was just a DCCO, then several of the field marks are NOT reliable, at least for some period of juvenile plumage.
 
From:NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:00 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
 
lol, Tony.
 
Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?
 
Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?
 
Mark
 
Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from  U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618
 


 
On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:


All:
 
Two points in my previous post.  "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check.  Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
 
Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
Mark et al.:

>I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/....  Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Bad Axe, MI
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>
>>What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>
>>How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>
>>Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>Mark Stackhouse
>>mark@westwings.com
>>from Mexico:
>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>from  U.S.
>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>All:
>> 
>>Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>> 
>>Thanks,
>> 
>>Nick
>> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>> 
>>It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>> 
>>Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>> 
>>Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>> 
>>Peter
>> 
>> 
>>I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>> 
>>Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>> 
>>Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>> 
>>Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>> 
>>Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>> 
>>General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>than other cormorants in the area.
>> 
>>Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>Perhaps others could comment on this.
>> 
>>On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>> 
>>Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>more carefully.
>> 
>> 
>>Mark Stackhouse
>>mark@westwings.com
>>from Mexico:
>>01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from  U.S.
>>011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>1-801-518-5618
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>research showed it to be otherwise.  The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>> 
>>Paul Lehman,  San Diego
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>> 
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 18:46 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
I would second Mark's point here. It seems like if the Farallons bird was just a DCCO, then several of the field marks are NOT reliable, at least for some period of juvenile plumage.

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Stackhouse
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 4:00 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:


All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:


All:

Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.

Thanks,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
(perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
than other cormorants in the area.

Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
Perhaps others could comment on this.

On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
more carefully.


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:






There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

Paul Lehman, San Diego



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 18:11 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
lol, Tony.

Thanks for the reference - you did a good job with that, even if you come up short on "tackled." I know that sometimes NECO will show some yellow/orange in the lore and supraloral area, but the question I have, and seems pertinent to the NJ bird, is how often, and/or to what age, can DCCO not show ANY yellow/orange there? I was working on the assumption, as I suspect many do, that ALL post-juvenile DCCO show at least some yellow/orange in the lore. If that's the case, shouldn't any cormorant seen in March in NJ with completely dark lore/supraloral area be a NECO?

Does anyone know at what point it's reasonable to assume, if ever, that all DCCO should show such yellow/orange?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Tony leukering wrote:

> All:
>
> Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
>> Mark et al.:
>>
>> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> Tony Leukering
>> currently Bad Axe, MI
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
>> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>>
>>> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>>
>>> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>>
>>> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>>> from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>>
>>>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>>
>>>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>>
>>>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>>
>>>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>>> more carefully.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>>>> mark@westwings.com
>>>>> from Mexico:
>>>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 16:26 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
All:

Two points in my previous post. "Tackled" is probably too intense of a word; I actually gave the subject just a casual hip check. Also, the captions are a bit mis-ordered.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:31 PM, Tony leukering wrote:
>
> Mark et al.:
>
> I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.
>
> Tony
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Bad Axe, MI
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/
> http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>>
>> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>>
>> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>>
>> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark Stackhouse
>> mark@westwings.com
>> from Mexico:
>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
>> from U.S.
>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>> 1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>>
>>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>>
>>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>>
>>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>>
>>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>>
>>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>>
>>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>>
>>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>>
>>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>>
>>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>>
>>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>>> more carefully.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>>> mark@westwings.com
>>>> from Mexico:
>>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 16:16 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
Mark et al.:

I tackled the supraloral orange in NECO a while back from a Colorado perspective (http://cfobirds.org/downloads/.... Thanks to Michael O'Brien for pointing me in that direction.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Bad Axe, MI
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Mark Stackhouse wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>>
>> All:
>>
>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>
>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>
>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>
>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>
>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>>
>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>>
>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>>
>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>
>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>
>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>
>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>>
>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>> more carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 15:39 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Additional discussion on the Farallon bird is here:
http://californiabirds.org/11r...
Peter

> Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing,
> since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after
> looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a
> NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of
> the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird
> is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too
> rounded.
>
> What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most
> commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the
> color of the lores.
>
> How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow
> supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly
> acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?
>
> Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for
> DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d.
> Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>
>> All:
>>
>> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not
>> a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id
>> problem than I previously realized.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>>
>> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced
>> back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like
>> this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as
>> first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>>
>> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the
>> observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it
>> was a juvenile Double-crested.
>>
>> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the
>> Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field
>>> marks are most important.
>>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>>
>>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better
>>> view of this.
>>>
>>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult
>>> winter) plumage?
>>>
>>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>>
>>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>>
>>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>>
>>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed
>>> photos.
>>>
>>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>>> more carefully.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Stackhouse
>>> mark@westwings.com
>>> from Mexico:
>>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>>> 1-801-518-5618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a
>>>> Neotropic.
>>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 15:04 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
Thanks for posting those pictures, Peter. I was wondering the same thing, since I was told that the Farallons bird had dark lores, too. But after looking at the pictures, while the sitting bird could easily pass for a NECO due to the shape of the gular sac, and the dark lores, the photos of the bird in flight don't look at all like NECO to me. The Farallons bird is too heavy, thick-necked, large-headed, and the tail too short and too rounded.

What this has me questioning is the reliability of the two most commonly-used field marks for this species pair - the gular angle and the color of the lores.

How often, and in what ages/plumages does a DCCO have a non-yellow supraloral area? Similarly, how often can a DCCO have an acute, nearly acute, or apparently acute gular sac angle?

Here I've used the general shape to weed through the NECO's looking for DCCO, and then relying on the lores and gular sac to confirm the i.d. Perhaps I've been doing it backwards?

Mark

Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:

> All:
>
> Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
>
> It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.
>
> Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.
>
> Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.
>
> Peter
>
>
>> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
>> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
>> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
>> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
>> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
>> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
>> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>>
>> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
>> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
>> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
>> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>>
>> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
>> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
>> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>>
>> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
>> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
>> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
>> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>>
>> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
>> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
>> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>>
>> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
>> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
>> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
>> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
>> than other cormorants in the area.
>>
>> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
>> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
>> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
>> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>>
>> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
>> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
>> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
>> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>>
>> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
>> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
>> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
>> more carefully.
>>
>>
>> Mark Stackhouse
>> mark@westwings.com
>> from Mexico:
>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
>> 1-801-518-5618
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>>
>>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 14:31 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
All:

Can someone give a definitive analysis of why the Farallons bird is not a Neotropic? That would be pretty educational as this looks a harder id problem than I previously realized.

Thanks,

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 10:55 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey

It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that
> my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit,
> Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the
> rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a
> greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some
> conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I
> can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems
> acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one
> would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in
> some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for
> sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered
> and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the
> lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show
> completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of
> the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole
> tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and
> the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of
> the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed"
> (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller
> than other cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers
> appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how
> reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character.
> Perhaps others could comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO,
> the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with
> DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful
> examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to
> hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the
> range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here
> more carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>
>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:56 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
It appears to be a second-cycle bird, with dark brown head but replaced
back and wing feathers (most, at least); either species could look like
this as second-cycle and some Neotropics might also match this as
first-cycle. Otherwise I don't feel very qualified with this issue.

Here is the Farallon bird mentioned by Paul Lehman:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
It was not accepted as A Neotropic by the CBRC but was withdrawn by the
observer on the second round of consideration. In the end all agreed it
was a juvenile Double-crested.

Different issues would apply to a second-cycle bird, of course, but the
Farallon lesson shows how similar these can be, structurally.

Peter


> I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that my
> reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico), I
> would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the rare species
> here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a greater
> scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some conflicting marks,
> and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important.
> Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:
>
> Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I can't
> see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems acute to me,
> too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one would like for a
> state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.
>
> Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in some
> it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for sure, as the
> lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.
>
> Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered and
> black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the lores, but
> is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show completely black,
> feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?
>
> Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of the
> photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole tail
> extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.
>
> General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and the
> shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of the
> hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed" (perhaps
> it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller than other
> cormorants in the area.
>
> Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers appear
> wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how reliable or what
> range of variation is possible in this character. Perhaps others could
> comment on this.
>
> On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO, the
> color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with DCCO,
> but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful examination
> of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.
>
> Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to hear
> the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the range of
> variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here more
> carefully.
>
>
> Mark Stackhouse
> mark@westwings.com
> from Mexico:
> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
> from U.S.
> 011-52-323-285-1243 or
> 1-801-518-5618
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
>> birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
>> One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
>> was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
>> research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
>> bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>>
>> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:01 pm
From: westwings AT sisna.com
 
I have to say that when I first looked at these photos last night that my reaction was that if I saw that bird here (San Blas, Nayarit, Mexico), I would never have even tried to turn it into a DCCO (the rare species here). Paul's comments have caused me to give this bird a greater scrutiny, and it appears to me to be a case with some conflicting marks, and requiring a prioritization over which field marks are most important. Here's my breakdown of the features that I can see:

Angle of the gulag sac: This looks weakly to support NECO. While I can't see it as well as I would like in the photos, the angle seems acute to me, too much so for DCCO, but not as clearly acute as one would like for a state-first NECO. It would be nice to have a better view of this.

Bill shape: Weakly DCCO? I can't really tell from these photos - in some it appears stout and with a bulbous tip, but I can't say for sure, as the lack of focus and camera angle seems to be distorting the view.

Lore color: Strongly NECO. The lores are clearly completely feathered and black. I know that NECO can sometimes show some yellow in the lores, but is it within the range of variation for a DCCO to show completely black, feathered lores, especially in non-juvenile (adult winter) plumage?

Tail: Supports NECO. Although the tail shape is not clear in some of the photos due to camera angle, in those where you can see the whole tail extended, it appears to be long and wedge-shaped.

General shape/size: Inconclusive. No size comparison is possible, and the shape, including head shape is difficult to see clearly because of the hunched posture of the bird and because it seems to be "fluffed" (perhaps it was cold?). The observer notes that it appeared smaller than other cormorants in the area.

Shape of the coverts/mantle feathers: Supports DCCO. These feathers appear wide and blunt for a NECO. Personally, I'm not sure how reliable or what range of variation is possible in this character. Perhaps others could comment on this.

On the balance, I'm still more comfortable with calling this a NECO, the color of the lores in particular being difficult to reconcile with DCCO, but there are some conflicting features that justify a careful examination of this bird. Hopefully we can get better and more detailed photos.

Since we face the mirror-image of this i.d. problem here, I'd love to hear the perspective of others. If this bird is indeed within the range of variation for a DCCO, we will need to examine our birds here more carefully.


Mark Stackhouse
mark@westwings.com
from Mexico:
01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit)
001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico)
from U.S.
011-52-323-285-1243 or
1-801-518-5618




On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Paul Lehman wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic. One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.
>
> Paul Lehman, San Diego
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 13:00 pm
From: semirelicta AT yahoo.com
 
This isn't an ID I've studied too extensively (although I did have a candidate here in CA a couple years ago), but to me I don't see any reason to question this bird as a Neotropic Cormorant. Its tail is almost as big as it! I really can't imagine a Double-crested with a tail like that. The short bill and white border around thepointed gular pouch all look spot on for Neotropic as well.

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 12:14 pm
From: amarayyash AT yahoo.com
 
Neil, I think there are enough oddities about this gull to steer the ID away from 1st cycle RIng-billed.
Structurally, I'm sure we can come up with Ring-billeds that appear longer-legged like this bird with a flat head. And some of the chevron-like scaling on the side of the neck and parts of the breast can also be matched by Ring-billed, but I agree with most of your suspicions which I've summarized below:

1) The inner primaries show solid, brown,outer webs, while the inner webs are clean and pale.

With Ring-billed, the inner primaries are typically pale, with some silvery-gray pigmentation. The dark pigmenation is more black than brown, and is usually most prominent along the shafts of the inner primaries.Although faded Ring-billeds may show brownish tones to the remiges, it's not as uniform and neat as your gull. Here are some examples of typical inner primary patterns on 1st winter Ring-billeds:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 7:08 AM, Neil Davidson wrote:

I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-




http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...



The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
but this is probably of little significance either way.



So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
I'm used to seeing.



Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
March.



So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
in knowing why I can rule it out.



Thanks in advance,

Neil Davidson













Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


http://gull-research.org/delaw...

2) The underwing coverts are uniformly dark.

Most 1st cycle Ring-billeds show pale underwing linings, with the greater primary coverts being the palest. Given this is a mid-March bird, I'd expect the underwings to be mostly white by now, like this:
http://gull-research.org/delaw...

3) The tertial edgeshave thick,pale edges up to the bases of these feathers.

This is odd seeing the tertial edges are considerably worn. With 1st cycle Ring-billeds, thick pale edges on the tertials correspond with feathers in crisp condition (as with a number of other species, usually earlier in the season). As the feathers wear, the pale fringes become much less uniform and visible. That's not the case with this bird.


Best,

Amar Ayyash
Frankfort IL, USA
http://www.anythinglarus.com/
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 8:31 am
From: lehman.paul1 AT verizon.net
 





There is a reasonable chance that this is a Double-crested. Some young
birds show a gular patch shape with faint pale border like a Neotropic.
One such bird occurred on the Farallon Islands a couple years back and
was actually initially accepted as a Neotropic, but then further
research showed it to be otherwise. The bill and head shape on the NJ
bird look more along the lines of a Doube-crested's.

Paul Lehman, San Diego




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Neotropic Cormorant in New Jersey
Date: Wed Apr 9 2014 0:19 am
From: g_g_allin AT hotmail.com
 
Rob Fergus is looking for comments on a possible Neotropic Cormorant. He writes:

"Possible Neotropic Cormorant
observed in a tree at dusk in NJ. In life noted small size, dark
lores, sharp v-shaped gular pouch, long wedge-shaped tail, dark
underparts. Comments appreciated. Photos on Flickr at https://flic.kr/p/mVhviz."

If you have any comments, cc him at birdchaser@hotmail.com.

Thanks,
John Puschock

Seattle, WA

g_g_allin@hotmail.com
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: possible Ring-billed Gull?
Date: Tue Apr 8 2014 6:55 am
From: neilcd21 AT hotmail.com
 
I'm hoping to get some feedback on this old gull sighting (13 March 2011).
I was going through my Common Gull files trying to make sense of the huge
range of kamtschatschensis appearance I see in Japan when I came across
these images of a bird which in the field I'd thought might have been Ring-
billed. I later discounted it because of the dark primary window and
corresponding greater coverts wedge and the lack of any positive Ring-
billed plumage features. I realize many people will be as unfamiliar with
kamt. as I am with Ring-billed but I'm really hoping for confirmation that
I can safely rule out Ring-billed. You can find a selection of images here:-




http://birdingkyoto.blogspot.j...



The bird doesn't have any plumage features strongly indicative of RBG such
as banded tail or inner greater coverts barring. All the plumage features
can be shown by kamt. though the fine head streaking leaving an isolated
rear ear coverts spot would be unusual, they normally have a spot partly
masked by surrounding markings or none at all on less heavily marked birds,
but this is probably of little significance either way.



So why would I even consider RBG? A number of points combine to create a
very un-Common Gull jizz. Depending on attitude the head is angular with a
deep, paralle-edged bill or when rounder the bill gives it a front-heavy
look. Even large kamt tend not to show such an angular appearance nor have
such a powerful bill. It looks very chesty and the body is obviously deep
from shoulder to belly. The rear is less attenuated than I expect from
common, partly due to the deep body but also the blade of the primary
projection is very deep based (each individual feather is broad unlike the
narrower, more pointed feathers of most kamt.) and lacks the typical long
appearance of Common. In most, but not all cases, p5 of kamt. falls
conspicuously beyond the tertials resulting in four unevenly spaced tips
along the blade whereas this bird only has three evenly spaced tips, again
contributing to a short, deep-bodied appearance. The legs are exceptionally
long producing a very upright stance when alert and a freer gait. In flight
it is broad-winged and more powerful looking than even the largest of birds
I'm used to seeing.



Two other interesting but inconclusive points are the very worn tertials, I
don't think I've ever seen this on any kamt. and while I'd expect RBG moult
to be more advanced at this time, it's equally odd to see kamt without
juvenile lower rear scapulars, very few have dropped most before the end of
March.



So much as I'd like it to be a RBG for rarity value, I'd be very interested
in knowing why I can rule it out.



Thanks in advance,

Neil Davidson













Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Hummingbird, Delaware, USA
Date: Mon Apr 7 2014 18:13 pm
From: tedfloyd57 AT hotmail.com
 
Hello, Birders.
Here's a photo of, and discussion about, an interesting hummingbird from Delaware a little while back:
http://blog.aba.org/2014/04/ma...
Ted FloydLafayette, Boulder, County, USA
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Black-eared vs Black (Pariah) Kite - Identification
Date: Mon Apr 7 2014 17:19 pm
From: rdcny AT earthlink.net
 
Anyone interested in distinguishing between the two Asian subspecies of the
Black Kite...the Black-eared Milvus migrans lineatus and the Black (Pariah)
Kite M.m. govinda can access this free publication by DeCandido et al:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5mu...

Flight identification of Milvus migrans lineatus Black-eared Kite and
Milvus migrans govinda Pariah Kite in Nepal and Thailand

Authors are Robert DeCandido (NYC), Tulsi Subedi (Nepal), Martti Siponen
(Finland), Kaset Sutasha DVM (Thailand), Andrew Pierce (UK and Thailand),
Chukiat Nualsri (Thailand) & Philip D. Round (UK and Thailand).

Research for the article was done primarily at the Khao Dinsor raptor
migration site in Thailand and the Thoolakharka raptor watch site in Nepal.

Robert DeCandido PhD

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Estrilda waxbills in Northern Tanzania
Date: Sun Apr 6 2014 17:34 pm
From: jmorlan AT gmail.com
 
We assumed these were female Black-cheeked Waxbills (Estrilda erythronotos
delamerei) based on range. However one of East Africa's better known
authorities has suggested that these are actually the first documented
records of Red-rumped Waxbill (Estrilda charmosyna kiwanukae) for Tanzania.
http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/T...

http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/T...

Above I follow Clements for English names, but these species are locally
(e.g. IOC) known as Black-faced Waxbill (Estrilda erythronotos delamerei)
and Black-cheeked Waxbill (Estrilda charmosyna kiwanukae) respectively.
They reportedly closely resemble E. c. kiwanukae but I'd like to get more
confirmation before submitting them to the East Africa Rarities Committee.

Can anybody confirm which species they are?

Thanks in advance.
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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