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Updated on August 17, 2017, 8:55 pm

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17 Aug: @ 20:43:44 Re: White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch) [Sebastien REEBER]
17 Aug: @ 19:59:35 Re: White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch) [Tony Leukering]
17 Aug: @ 14:34:13  White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch) [Nick Bonomo]
17 Aug: @ 02:01:09 Re: New species for mainland North America [Norman Deans van Swelm]
16 Aug: @ 23:13:43 Re: Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker? [Tony Leukering]
16 Aug: @ 15:14:38 Re: New species for mainland North America [Andrew Spencer]
16 Aug: @ 12:50:59 Re: New species for mainland North America [Norman Deans van Swelm]
16 Aug: @ 10:10:14 Re: New species for mainland North America [Andrew Spencer]
16 Aug: @ 10:03:46  New species for mainland North America [Norman Deans van Swelm]
15 Aug: @ 23:31:15 Re: Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker? [Wayne Weber]
15 Aug: @ 22:56:58  Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker? [Wayne Weber]
13 Aug: @ 10:59:15 Re: More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls [Martin Reid]
11 Aug: @ 07:35:59 Re: More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls [Robert Lewis]
10 Aug: @ 21:24:01  More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls [Giff Beaton]
10 Aug: @ 13:53:51 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Alvaro Jaramillo]
10 Aug: @ 10:46:24 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Alvaro Jaramillo]
10 Aug: @ 10:35:50 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Norman Deans van Swelm]
10 Aug: @ 06:59:50 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Amar Ayyash]
09 Aug: @ 18:46:14 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Alvaro Jaramillo]
09 Aug: @ 17:01:57 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Robert Lewis]
09 Aug: @ 15:39:10 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [KEVIN karlson]
09 Aug: @ 13:39:04 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [=?UTF-8?Q?Jan_J=C3=B6rgensen?=]
09 Aug: @ 13:19:05 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Norman Deans van Swelm]
09 Aug: @ 12:24:33 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Alvaro Jaramillo]
09 Aug: @ 11:59:43 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Peter Pyle]
09 Aug: @ 11:40:34 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Martin Reid]
09 Aug: @ 09:24:42 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [=?UTF-8?Q?Jan_J=C3=B6rgensen?=]
09 Aug: @ 09:15:27 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [=?UTF-8?Q?Jan_J=C3=B6rgensen?=]
08 Aug: @ 20:18:59 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Giff Beaton]
08 Aug: @ 19:53:30 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [KEVIN karlson]
08 Aug: @ 17:51:06 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Alvaro Jaramillo]
08 Aug: @ 17:32:36 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [KEVIN karlson]
08 Aug: @ 14:39:49 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Tony Leukering]
08 Aug: @ 13:53:39 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Robert Lewis]
07 Aug: @ 15:50:56  Potential Manx Shearwater - Pacific Ocean off Darién, Panama [William Hull]
07 Aug: @ 14:03:33 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [KEVIN karlson]
05 Aug: @ 17:05:44 Re: Need Hawk ID- This Time WITH Link to Pics [Brian Sullivan]
05 Aug: @ 16:53:24  Need Hawk ID- This Time WITH Link to Pics [Bates Estabrooks]
05 Aug: @ 16:29:27  Need Hawk ID [Bates Estabrooks]
04 Aug: @ 22:24:46  Fwd: Possible Plumbeous Vireo in Oregon [Tony Leukering]
04 Aug: @ 16:34:56 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Robert Lewis]
04 Aug: @ 06:39:35 Re: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Norman Deans van Swelm]
03 Aug: @ 21:23:15  Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC [Robert Lewis]
29 Jul: @ 16:20:18 Re: Chickadee [David Irons]
29 Jul: @ 15:48:25 Re: Chickadee [Kevin J. McGowan]
29 Jul: @ 13:59:00 Re: Chickadee [Noah Arthur]
29 Jul: @ 12:48:20 Re: Chickadee [Bates Estabrooks]
29 Jul: @ 12:04:06  Chickadee [Jeff Bleam]
20 Jul: @ 08:03:10 Re: Possible Common Ringed-plover? [julian hough]
20 Jul: @ 05:08:05 Re: Possible Common Ringed-plover? [Defos du rau Pierre]





Subject: White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)
Date: Thu Aug 17 2017 20:43 pm
From: sebastien.reeber AT wanadoo.fr
 
Hi all,



Here in Western France, where Whiskered, Black and white-winged (rare) terns are present, the variability in the definitive prebasic moult timing is indeed variable... As stated by Tony, age and breeding status appear most certainly as the main causes for this variability. Although, in the colony I am monitoring (ca 2000 pairs, mostly Whiskered), many adults start their prebasic moult (chin, throat and cheeks) a few days or so after hatching. And so do many adults which fail in their attempt at a later stage. On the contrary, many adults failing at an early stage will try a second clutch and postpone their moult. As a consequence, in early july for example, one may see adults well through their prebasic moult, both with and without offspring, and others still in full alternate plumage, incubating or even building a nest...



All the best,



Sebastien Reeber









> Message du 18/08/17 02:59
> De : "Tony Leukering" <000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
> A : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Copie :
> Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)
>
> David/Nick et al.:
>
>
> At least two reasons underpin the great variability in appearance in birds such as these: age and breeding status. In many species, immatures that do not breed initiate the prebasic molt much, much earlier than do most adults. Additionally, adults that fail at nesting early, sometimes/often/frequently/nearly always initiate the prebasic molt early, while successful breeders wait until much later to initiate prebasic molts. Thus, in early August in someplace like, say, Cape May, one can find two-year-old Forster's Terns that have nearly completed their definitive prebasic, adults that failed early and are partly through their prebasic, and adults that are still feeding youngsters that have only started their prebasic. There are, undoubtedly, other facts that come into play, but I think that these are the most-important ones.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Guymon, OK
> ID columns
>
> eBird blog
> Photo quiz
> Photos
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Bonomo
> To: BIRDWG01
> Sent: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 2:34 pm
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)
>
> Hi all, David Shoch asked that I post this to the forum. See below my signature.
>
> Nick Bonomo
> Wallingford, CT
> www.shorebirder.com
>
> All,
>
> I was recently looking at the many great photos of the recent
> White-winged Tern in Pennsylvania, and it struck me what a wide range
> of aspects adults of this species can show in the same timeframe.
>
> For example, in late Jul/early Aug 1988 at the Logan Tract in Delaware
> there was an adult in nearly complete basic plumage (apart from the
> telltale retained dark under-primary and under-secondary coverts), and
> a similar bird was also at Little Creek (Delaware) in early Aug 1993
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>
> Contrast those birds with, e.g., the 2017 Pennsylvania bird (Aug
> 10-13), and with the late Jul/early Aug 1989 bird at Bombay Hook
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>
> both in mostly alternate plumage with head molt underway.
>
> Considering these examples, does the apparent spread in molt timing of
> contour feathers seem unusual? Does either case seem particularly late
> or early (from a European perspective)? Or is the apparent variability
> in the timing of molt of contour feathers typical? (mindful that
> typical is hard to characterize and variability reflects some
> combination of factors driving molt timing, e.g. breeding
> success/failure, nutrition, post-definitive age? etc.) Black Terns
> seem to show high variability in this regard, and I wonder if what
> strikes me as remarkable simply reflects my lack of perspective on the
> progression of molt of contour feathers, which is hard to discern on
> other (non-Chlidonias) terns.
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> Incidentally, heres a definite atypical case: an alternate
> White-winged Tern in southern Brazil from Nov 20 2008
>
> http://www4.museu-goeldi.br/re...
>
> presumably a bird that has switched to an austral molt calendar.
>
>
> David Shoch
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)
Date: Thu Aug 17 2017 19:59 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
David/Nick et al.:


At least two reasons underpin the great variability in appearance in birds such as these: age and breeding status. In many species, immatures that do not breed initiate the prebasic molt much, much earlier than do most adults. Additionally, adults that fail at nesting early, sometimes/often/frequently/nearly always initiate the prebasic molt early, while successful breeders wait until much later to initiate prebasic molts. Thus, in early August in someplace like, say, Cape May, one can find two-year-old Forster's Terns that have nearly completed their definitive prebasic, adults that failed early and are partly through their prebasic, and adults that are still feeding youngsters that have only started their prebasic. There are, undoubtedly, other facts that come into play, but I think that these are the most-important ones.


Tony



Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Bonomo
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 2:34 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)

Hi all, David Shoch asked that I post this to the forum. See below my signature.

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT
www.shorebirder.com

All,

I was recently looking at the many great photos of the recent
White-winged Tern in Pennsylvania, and it struck me what a wide range
of aspects adults of this species can show in the same timeframe.

For example, in late Jul/early Aug 1988 at the Logan Tract in Delaware
there was an adult in nearly complete basic plumage (apart from the
telltale retained dark under-primary and under-secondary coverts), and
a similar bird was also at Little Creek (Delaware) in early Aug 1993

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

Contrast those birds with, e.g., the 2017 Pennsylvania bird (Aug
10-13), and with the late Jul/early Aug 1989 bird at Bombay Hook

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

both in mostly alternate plumage with head molt underway.

Considering these examples, does the apparent spread in molt timing of
contour feathers seem unusual? Does either case seem particularly late
or early (from a European perspective)? Or is the apparent variability
in the timing of molt of contour feathers typical? (mindful that
typical is hard to characterize and variability reflects some
combination of factors driving molt timing, e.g. breeding
success/failure, nutrition, post-definitive age? etc.) Black Terns
seem to show high variability in this regard, and I wonder if what
strikes me as remarkable simply reflects my lack of perspective on the
progression of molt of contour feathers, which is hard to discern on
other (non-Chlidonias) terns.

Thanks for any insight.

Incidentally, heres a definite atypical case: an alternate
White-winged Tern in southern Brazil from Nov 20 2008

http://www4.museu-goeldi.br/re...

presumably a bird that has switched to an austral molt calendar.


David Shoch

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: White-winged Tern molt (for David Shoch)
Date: Thu Aug 17 2017 14:34 pm
From: nbonomo AT gmail.com
 
Hi all, David Shoch asked that I post this to the forum. See below my signature.

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT
www.shorebirder.com

All,

I was recently looking at the many great photos of the recent
White-winged Tern in Pennsylvania, and it struck me what a wide range
of aspects adults of this species can show in the same timeframe.

For example, in late Jul/early Aug 1988 at the Logan Tract in Delaware
there was an adult in nearly complete basic plumage (apart from the
telltale retained dark under-primary and under-secondary coverts), and
a similar bird was also at Little Creek (Delaware) in early Aug 1993

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

Contrast those birds with, e.g., the 2017 Pennsylvania bird (Aug
10-13), and with the late Jul/early Aug 1989 bird at Bombay Hook

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

both in mostly alternate plumage with head molt underway.

Considering these examples, does the apparent spread in molt timing of
contour feathers seem unusual? Does either case seem particularly late
or early (from a European perspective)? Or is the apparent variability
in the timing of molt of contour feathers typical? (mindful that
typical is hard to characterize and variability reflects some
combination of factors driving molt timing, e.g. breeding
success/failure, nutrition, post-definitive age? etc.) Black Terns
seem to show high variability in this regard, and I wonder if what
strikes me as remarkable simply reflects my lack of perspective on the
progression of molt of contour feathers, which is hard to discern on
other (non-Chlidonias) terns.

Thanks for any insight.

Incidentally, heres a definite atypical case: an alternate
White-winged Tern in southern Brazil from Nov 20 2008

http://www4.museu-goeldi.br/re...

presumably a bird that has switched to an austral molt calendar.


David Shoch

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: New species for mainland North America
Date: Thu Aug 17 2017 2:01 am
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Andrew, all I can say is that it is the typical call of Green Sandpiper,
it's given in one go when exited f.i. when, in these days just before
dusk when they and other waders are ready to go on (night) migration the
sky is filled with these very same calls. It is not song. They, the
Green Sandpipers, make this call all over their range and I don't think
they change it when out of range.

Best wishes, Norman


Op 16-8-2017 om 22:14 schreef Andrew Spencer:
> Hi Norman,
>
> I would argue that the Boesman recording from Nome does match Solitary
> Sandpiper and not Green. The first sound on the cut is actually a snippet
> of song, and matches the song of Solitary on ML132172 (
> https://macaulaylibrary.org/au... at about 2:20). The song of
> Green Sandpiper, on the other hand, is much slower and lower (see XC240530
> http://www.xeno-canto.org/2405... The remainder of the calls on the
> Alaska recording are typical flight calls for Solitary Sandpiper. These
> are indeed extremely similar to Green Sandpiper, to the point that I would
> argue that an out of range bird should not be identified on them alone.
> The song, however, is diagnostic, and in this case supports the original ID.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Norman Deans van Swelm <
> norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> Hello Andrew,
>>
>> Well all I can say is the recording mentioned below produces the exact
>> call of Green Sandpiper. This species migrates at this moment over the area
>> where I live, I hear at night over my house and by day in the marshlands
>> nearby. I did check all recordings of Solitary Sandpiper on Xeno-canto and
>> the one below does not match with the rest. However you can find similar
>> calls when you go to the Green Sandpiper section of Xeno-Canto.
>>
>> Cheers, Norman
>>
>> Op 16-8-2017 om 17:10 schreef Andrew Spencer:
>>
>> Hi Norman,
>>
>> Could you elaborate on why this is a Green Sandpiper rather than a
>> Solitary? Based on what I hear in this recording I don't believe Solitary
>> can be ruled out. Thanks!
>>
>> Andrew Spencer
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>>
>>
>> Though on the Xeno Canto list as Solitary Sandpiper Tringa solitaria it
>> is in fact a Green Sandpiper Tringa ochrpus :
>>
>>
>> http://www.xeno-canto.org/3227...
>>
>>
>> The Green Sandpiper has been observed on Attu Island in the Aleutians,
>> Alaska and on St. Paul Island in the Pribilofs, Alaska and at Gambell,
>> St. Lawrence Island, Alaska,
>>
>> Regards, Norman
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?
Date: Wed Aug 16 2017 23:13 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
All:


Wayne has sent me the picture that he mentioned and I have uploaded it here:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/...




Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Weber
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 11:31 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?

Sorry folks-- It appears that ID-Frontiers is one of the few remaining
e-mail groups which does not allow photo attachments. I cannot provide a web
address, because the photo is not on any website.

Is there anyone who considers themselves an expert on sapsucker ID who would
be willing to take a stab at this? If you can send me a private message, I
can send you the photo and would greatly appreciate your help.

Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC, Canada
contopus@telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Weber
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:56 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?

Bird ID folks,



The attached photo was submitted for a sapsucker seen in mid-July in Stanley
Park, Vancouver, BC. Is this a Red-naped or a Red-naped x Red-breasted
hybrid? (Red-breasted is the normal breeding form in this area.)



There is no black border visible below the red throat, but if this is a
hybrid, it has far less red on the head than would be expected, and it's
hard to tell whether or not red extends onto the breast.



Wayne C. Weber

Delta, BC, Canada

contopus@telus.net








Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: New species for mainland North America
Date: Wed Aug 16 2017 15:14 pm
From: gwwarbler AT gmail.com
 
Hi Norman,

I would argue that the Boesman recording from Nome does match Solitary
Sandpiper and not Green. The first sound on the cut is actually a snippet
of song, and matches the song of Solitary on ML132172 (
https://macaulaylibrary.org/au... at about 2:20). The song of
Green Sandpiper, on the other hand, is much slower and lower (see XC240530
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2405... The remainder of the calls on the
Alaska recording are typical flight calls for Solitary Sandpiper. These
are indeed extremely similar to Green Sandpiper, to the point that I would
argue that an out of range bird should not be identified on them alone.
The song, however, is diagnostic, and in this case supports the original ID.

Andrew

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Norman Deans van Swelm <
norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:

> Hello Andrew,
>
> Well all I can say is the recording mentioned below produces the exact
> call of Green Sandpiper. This species migrates at this moment over the area
> where I live, I hear at night over my house and by day in the marshlands
> nearby. I did check all recordings of Solitary Sandpiper on Xeno-canto and
> the one below does not match with the rest. However you can find similar
> calls when you go to the Green Sandpiper section of Xeno-Canto.
>
> Cheers, Norman
>
> Op 16-8-2017 om 17:10 schreef Andrew Spencer:
>
> Hi Norman,
>
> Could you elaborate on why this is a Green Sandpiper rather than a
> Solitary? Based on what I hear in this recording I don't believe Solitary
> can be ruled out. Thanks!
>
> Andrew Spencer
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>
>
> Though on the Xeno Canto list as Solitary Sandpiper Tringa solitaria it
> is in fact a Green Sandpiper Tringa ochrpus :
>
>
> http://www.xeno-canto.org/3227...
>
>
> The Green Sandpiper has been observed on Attu Island in the Aleutians,
> Alaska and on St. Paul Island in the Pribilofs, Alaska and at Gambell,
> St. Lawrence Island, Alaska,
>
> Regards, Norman
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: New species for mainland North America
Date: Wed Aug 16 2017 12:50 pm
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Hello Andrew,

Well all I can say is the recording mentioned below produces the exact
call of Green Sandpiper. This species migrates at this moment over the
area where I live, I hear at night over my house and by day in the
marshlands nearby. I did check all recordings of Solitary Sandpiper on
Xeno-canto and the one below does not match with the rest. However you
can find similar calls when you go to the Green Sandpiper section of
Xeno-Canto.

Cheers, Norman


Op 16-8-2017 om 17:10 schreef Andrew Spencer:
> Hi Norman,
>
> Could you elaborate on why this is a Green Sandpiper rather than a
> Solitary? Based on what I hear in this recording I don't believe Solitary
> can be ruled out. Thanks!
>
> Andrew Spencer
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Norman Deans van Swelm <
> norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> Though on the Xeno Canto list as Solitary Sandpiper Tringa solitaria it
>> is in fact a Green Sandpiper Tringa ochrpus :
>>
>>
>> http://www.xeno-canto.org/3227...
>>
>>
>> The Green Sandpiper has been observed on Attu Island in the Aleutians,
>> Alaska and on St. Paul Island in the Pribilofs, Alaska and at Gambell,
>> St. Lawrence Island, Alaska,
>>
>> Regards, Norman
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: New species for mainland North America
Date: Wed Aug 16 2017 10:10 am
From: gwwarbler AT gmail.com
 
Hi Norman,

Could you elaborate on why this is a Green Sandpiper rather than a
Solitary? Based on what I hear in this recording I don't believe Solitary
can be ruled out. Thanks!

Andrew Spencer

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Norman Deans van Swelm <
norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:

> Though on the Xeno Canto list as Solitary Sandpiper Tringa solitaria it
> is in fact a Green Sandpiper Tringa ochrpus :
>
>
> http://www.xeno-canto.org/3227...
>
>
> The Green Sandpiper has been observed on Attu Island in the Aleutians,
> Alaska and on St. Paul Island in the Pribilofs, Alaska and at Gambell,
> St. Lawrence Island, Alaska,
>
> Regards, Norman
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: New species for mainland North America
Date: Wed Aug 16 2017 10:03 am
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Though on the Xeno Canto list as Solitary Sandpiper Tringa solitaria  it
is in fact a Green Sandpiper Tringa ochrpus :


http://www.xeno-canto.org/3227...


The Green Sandpiper has been observed on Attu Island in the Aleutians,
Alaska and on St. Paul Island in the Pribilofs, Alaska and at Gambell,
St. Lawrence Island, Alaska,

Regards, Norman


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?
Date: Tue Aug 15 2017 23:31 pm
From: contopus AT telus.net
 
Sorry folks--  It appears that ID-Frontiers is one of the few remaining
e-mail groups which does not allow photo attachments. I cannot provide a web
address, because the photo is not on any website.

Is there anyone who considers themselves an expert on sapsucker ID who would
be willing to take a stab at this? If you can send me a private message, I
can send you the photo and would greatly appreciate your help.

Wayne C. Weber
Delta, BC, Canada
contopus@telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Weber
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 8:56 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?

Bird ID folks,



The attached photo was submitted for a sapsucker seen in mid-July in Stanley
Park, Vancouver, BC. Is this a Red-naped or a Red-naped x Red-breasted
hybrid? (Red-breasted is the normal breeding form in this area.)



There is no black border visible below the red throat, but if this is a
hybrid, it has far less red on the head than would be expected, and it's
hard to tell whether or not red extends onto the breast.



Wayne C. Weber

Delta, BC, Canada

contopus@telus.net








Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Red-naped or hybrid sapsucker?
Date: Tue Aug 15 2017 22:56 pm
From: contopus AT telus.net
 
Bird ID folks,



The attached photo was submitted for a sapsucker seen in mid-July in Stanley
Park, Vancouver, BC. Is this a Red-naped or a Red-naped x Red-breasted
hybrid? (Red-breasted is the normal breeding form in this area.)



There is no black border visible below the red throat, but if this is a
hybrid, it has far less red on the head than would be expected, and it's
hard to tell whether or not red extends onto the breast.



Wayne C. Weber

Delta, BC, Canada

contopus@telus.net








Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls
Date: Sun Aug 13 2017 10:59 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Hey Bob/All,
Darker-mantled LBBGs have been seen off-and-on in Texas for many years; I dont know what to make of them

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

and here is one from Florida:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...


---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Aug 11, 2017, at Aug 11, 7:35 AM, Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
>
> That really does look like an intermedius.
>
> I could post it on my gull page, in the process of being resurrected from the dead.
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>
>
>
>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 10:22 PM, Giff Beaton wrote:
>>
>> Been a really interesting thread, this is what Frontiers is supposed to be all about! Apparently a lot of us have been pondering the numbers and movements of LBBG in Eastern N America for some time now
>>
>> Knowing he is not on this list serve, I checked in with Bruce Hallett today, author of Birds of the Bahamas, and all around very wise birder. Here are his comments regarding LBBG in the Bahamas (paraphrased):
>>
>> "Started showing up around twenty years ago in the Northern Bahamas.
>>
>> Has increased over the years from first being noticed. Status between May to September unknown. Full adults seen most often but numbers of immatures increasing.
>>
>> High count of around 50 near the Grand Bahama dump around 18-20 years ago. 95 seen on the Grand Bahama CBC 2008. Always expected in Nassau Harbor, Grand Bahama harbors and Abaco harbors from September to May over the past say 8 years.
>>
>> Im not sure that fills in any blanks, but its another little piece of the puzzle.
>>
>> I havent seen much mention of subspecies in this thread, so Im also curious what others are seeing in that regard in Eastern N America? Here in GA we see almost always what look to be L.f.graellsii, although back in 2008 I took a photo of two adults standing next to each other that are clearly different subspecies. I figured the right one was graellsii and the left one maybe intermedius? If anyone has comments I would love to hear them
>>
>> http://www.giffbeaton.com/Shor...
>>
>> Yes, I know they aren't shorebirds, but I dont have a gull page to put this image on...
>>
>> Thanks for all the interesting posts,
>>
>> Giff Beaton
>> Palmetto GA
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls
Date: Fri Aug 11 2017 7:35 am
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
That really does look like an intermedius.

I could post it on my gull page, in the process of being resurrected from the dead.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...



> On Aug 10, 2017, at 10:22 PM, Giff Beaton wrote:
>
> Been a really interesting thread, this is what Frontiers is supposed to be all about! Apparently a lot of us have been pondering the numbers and movements of LBBG in Eastern N America for some time now
>
> Knowing he is not on this list serve, I checked in with Bruce Hallett today, author of Birds of the Bahamas, and all around very wise birder. Here are his comments regarding LBBG in the Bahamas (paraphrased):
>
> "Started showing up around twenty years ago in the Northern Bahamas.
>
> Has increased over the years from first being noticed. Status between May to September unknown. Full adults seen most often but numbers of immatures increasing.
>
> High count of around 50 near the Grand Bahama dump around 18-20 years ago. 95 seen on the Grand Bahama CBC 2008. Always expected in Nassau Harbor, Grand Bahama harbors and Abaco harbors from September to May over the past say 8 years.
>
> Im not sure that fills in any blanks, but its another little piece of the puzzle.
>
> I havent seen much mention of subspecies in this thread, so Im also curious what others are seeing in that regard in Eastern N America? Here in GA we see almost always what look to be L.f.graellsii, although back in 2008 I took a photo of two adults standing next to each other that are clearly different subspecies. I figured the right one was graellsii and the left one maybe intermedius? If anyone has comments I would love to hear them
>
> http://www.giffbeaton.com/Shor...
>
> Yes, I know they aren't shorebirds, but I dont have a gull page to put this image on...
>
> Thanks for all the interesting posts,
>
> Giff Beaton
> Palmetto GA
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: More on Lesser Black-backed Gulls
Date: Thu Aug 10 2017 21:24 pm
From: giffbeaton AT mindspring.com
 
Been a really interesting thread, this is what Frontiers is supposed to be all about! Apparently a lot of us have been pondering the numbers and movements of LBBG in Eastern N America for some time now

Knowing he is not on this list serve, I checked in with Bruce Hallett today, author of Birds of the Bahamas, and all around very wise birder. Here are his comments regarding LBBG in the Bahamas (paraphrased):

"Started showing up around twenty years ago in the Northern Bahamas.

Has increased over the years from first being noticed. Status between May to September unknown. Full adults seen most often but numbers of immatures increasing.

High count of around 50 near the Grand Bahama dump around 18-20 years ago. 95 seen on the Grand Bahama CBC 2008. Always expected in Nassau Harbor, Grand Bahama harbors and Abaco harbors from September to May over the past say 8 years.

Im not sure that fills in any blanks, but its another little piece of the puzzle.

I havent seen much mention of subspecies in this thread, so Im also curious what others are seeing in that regard in Eastern N America? Here in GA we see almost always what look to be L.f.graellsii, although back in 2008 I took a photo of two adults standing next to each other that are clearly different subspecies. I figured the right one was graellsii and the left one maybe intermedius? If anyone has comments I would love to hear them

http://www.giffbeaton.com/Shor...

Yes, I know they aren't shorebirds, but I dont have a gull page to put this image on...

Thanks for all the interesting posts,

Giff Beaton
Palmetto GA
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Thu Aug 10 2017 13:53 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Norman



Lots of data on eBird that you can rifle through. http://ebird.org/ebird/map/lbb... &env.minX=&env.minY=&env.maxX=&env.maxY=&zh=false&gp=false&ev=Z&mr=1-12&bmo=1&emo=12&yr=all&byr=1900&eyr=2017#



Birds in Northern South America include various ages. Los Flamencos NP, Guajira, Colombia is a spot where you have a great chance of seeing Lesser Black-backed next to Kelp Gulls, as the latter have started to become regular here as well. Various records from Pacific Panama near Panama City, so the answer is definitely yes, I am sure some of the Atlantic birds cross here to the Pacific. No southern Pacific records yet, there is a specimen of a bird identified as a Lesser Black-backed from Buenos Aires, Argentina from some years back however in the southern Atlantic part of South America.

Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 11:37 AM
To: Alvaro Jaramillo ; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC



Alvaro I find your obeservations of LBBG's in the region of N.Columbia most interesting. Were they young birds? Could these birds fly over Panama into the Pacific?

There exists a welknown LBBG migration route along E.Atlantic coasts towards Iberia, NW. and W.Africa used by the complete western population. There also exists a much used seabird route from the east Atlantic to Newfoundland known f.i. for massive movements of Kittiwakes but not for LBBG migration. Times have changed and perhaps there now is a corridor through which LBBG's enter Canada or the US on a large scale. Is there?

Regards, Norman





Op 10-8-2017 om 17:46 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:

Norman et al.
Having birded a lot in the Caribbean, including most of the Lesser Antilles multiple times, and some in coastal Northern South America I can say that Lesser Black-backed is not that common there. They are regular down to N Colombia and Trinidad and Tobago, but the numbers drop off steeply when you compare Florida to Cuba. In other words, it seems that they are wintering from Florida and northward, many fewer south of Florida. If these patterns of numbers are real and not an effect, then most of the migration is happening north-south, not through a South American - African route, that would be the exception.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman Deans van Swelm
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 6:17 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Ah! Thank you Amar, slip of the keyboard, not Rhode Island but Long Island and the bird was in active primary moult. It is well known that Lesser Black-backed Gulls get a lot older than the rings we put on them.
F.I. steel rings may already show cracks when in use for only three years, warm seawater in the tropics is blamed for that, a fact known already since mid 1950's. Same for plastic rings, esp.the coloured ones wear quickly, get damaged and fall off. A healthy LBBG on a diet of fish can easily get 30 to 40 years old. Our bird from Long Island was never seen between ringing in 1990 and turning up in NY in 1997. If it had arrived via the Caribbean it most certainly was familiar with the coastal route to Florida. If our bird is indeed the Appledore gull it would have been 17 years old. Though it was found breeding in 2007 it could well have been breeding on Appledore since 1997! You will have to do with the Appledore pics as no other are available. I've never been called romantic, it must have developed over the years.

There are quite a few LBBG's around but if you feel all LBBG's in the US come from Greenland than I suggest you go there and colour ring them or better still give them a Californean satellite tag!

Good luck, Norman


Op 10-8-2017 om 13:58 schreef Amar Ayyash:

With no intention of getting into a hairsplitting contest, I'd like to
clarify that "the" first color-ringed LBBG found in the United States,
from Europe, was in New York (October 1997). Not Rhode Island. I'm
sure this is what you meant, Norman. I am however wondering what would
posses anyone to think that this same bird lost its leg band and then
10 years later would be documented interbreeding with American Herring
Gulls on Appledore Island! Seems very romantic albeit a great stretch
of the imagination. Are there photos of the New York bird available?

In any event, note that Green F05 had a consistent habit of migrating
from Appledore Island to Florida, and back (2007-2011). It could be
argued that this supports the notion that our Lessers in North America
have a north-south migration route (as eBird reports suggest from late
September through early November, and then again in March and April).
Although there very well may be some adventurous LBBGs making the
journey from NW Africa (and Iberia) to the Caribbean, there are over
90 LBBG color banding programs in Europe, and of the thousands and
thousands of Lessers banded there, we have yet to find any in the last
15 years. And this is not due to a lack of effort! With this in mind,
there were 3,000-5,000 pairs breeding in the exploding Greenland
population as of 2012, with new colonies being found every summer
(pers comm David Boertmann & Lars Maltha Rasmussen). I'm assuming
numbers in these colonies have not decreased since then, and as far as
I know, those birds aren't being banded. So yes, I think typical human
logic should prevail here. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to the
idea that Florida and points south of there may be getting some of
their birds via the Canary Stream. However, the increasing numbers in
Canada and the United States seems to be directly correlated with the
increasing Greenland numbers. Ultimately though, I'm sure we'll learn one day that the explanation isn't as simple as any of us think it may be.

Best,
Amar Ayyash


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo

wrote:


Norman,

Actually the reason we hypothesize that ours come from Greenland,
is because we do NOT see more of your rings. There are multiple
places in the East where you can see over 100 Lesser BB Gulls in one
go, and we have not been finding rings. If they were from the UK or
Netherlands we assume we would be seeing more rings. We are frankly
sampling thousands of Lesser BB Gulls every year, and we do not find
rings. I got super excited when I found a banded Lesser some years
ago in Florida along with Michael Brothers well it was F5 from
Appledore fame! Correct me if I am wrong on the perceived low frequency of Euro-ringed Lessers in North America.



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Alvaro Jaramillo ;
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ; Martin Reid ; alvaro
Jaramillo
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
NC



Hi Alvaro, Martin and all,

It's typical human logic to assume that the gulls breding closest to
the US must be the birds from,Greenland or NE Europe yet the first
colour-ringed LBBG found in the US (Rhode Island) was a chick ringed
seven years before by me in The Port of Rotterdam in the largest gull
colony of the world, As the rings I then used were rather vulnerable
the ring must have fallen off soon after it was found and I like to
think that he is the Appledore gull fathering several hybrid young with his smithonianus mate.
Years and tens of thousands more colour-ringed gulls later our
Icelandic chick went to Puerto Rico. How? Well our human mind says it
took the shortest route and flew in a straight line to Puerto Rico.
But did it and why should it have done so since our other
colour-ringed Icelandic LBBG's flew SE and joined their British and
Dutch brothers and sisters on their way to Iberia and W.Africa! The
coast of NW Africa is teeming with young adventurous LBBG's in autumn
and some of them including the two colour-ringed birds could have
followed the Canary Stream and ended up in the Caribbean. Just think
about that. As the Greenland breeders are of the same stock as the
Icelanders, Brits and Dutch I am convinced that they too follow their
kin to NW Africa though ofcourse some may straggle into Canada. Why
not use more of the tiny satellite tags produced in California? Great stuff, they already gave great results with waders?

As for the dark birds that bred in Alaskan why could they not have
been the darkest Heuglin's Gulls? Taimyr Gulls are not very dark
mantled and when I see the fledgelings in the link below the juv. may
resemble a young Dutch Herring Gull rather than a dark juv. LBBG!
There are ofcourse two more candidates to visit the western US i.e.
Baraba and Mongolian Gull. The latter is now frequently found in
India where it probably was overlooked previously.

greetings, Norman






http://radioactiverobins.com/a...

(


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...




http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...




Op 9-8-2017 om 19:24 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:

Martin
Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian
Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus
far the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in
California. Not obvious in the first sightings (January), but much
more so in the March sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"

Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults.
As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later
on average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But
little attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me
think that first cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what
the adults do. It is all about energy expense, and when you have
enough energy resources to molt, and this shifts depending on other
needs. Long migration is one of these needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America.
Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas.
This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are
coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are
breeding in an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or
not? Availability of food in the breeding area, timing of the
breeding season, and various other details specifically relating to
breeding would shift the molt of the adults, but not necessarily the
young of the year. These are of course unknowns since we are not
clear on where the North American birds come from, Greenland is the
obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But your note did make
me think that molt timing shifts may be different in adults vs young,
depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
NC

Gullers and all,
My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal
wintering range during the summer are a really variable bunch in
terms of molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of
bird H significantly late? I dont think so - at least not compared
to the other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for
some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:

Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from
coverts;
P5-P10 old.
Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond
coverts; P7-P10 old.
Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite
visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.

Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.

Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is
barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight
individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt
stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id
say that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so.
Add into this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter
in the Americas are now molting much later than their European
counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the
primary molt timing of bird H.

Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual?
Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and
the others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All
the other birds have completed the replacement of the contour
feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of
replacing its body feathers - gaps are apparent in a number of
places. Combined with the very poor condition of the unreplaced
inner wing feathers, this suggests that this bird is in poor
condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the middle of
replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements can -
depending on their combined locations - significantly change the
structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the
missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then
exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing
reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the
apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the
apparent structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see
that Jan has expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I
have invested some time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!


I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as
refuting the notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do
occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that
individuals of these taxa occur here, remaining unseen or
undetectable. In the Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of
LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and south has decreased our
chances of recognizing potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of
IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less rare they receive less
scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in
California being from the donor population of the northeastern
expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago when
there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.

LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first
Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an
individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to
know just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records
of LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of
European LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more
likely that these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic
Siberia) than the east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that
period, LBBG-types have been found in far northern and western Alaska
- surely those birds came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?

Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at
Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the
nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (
http://gull-research.org/heugl...
Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin
Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly
2,000 miles before the end of September!
- it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through
their migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south -
who knows where such birds might get to?
FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types
at Barrow in June 2006
(http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
).

On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin
LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of
southern Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly,
with at least a several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the
breeding population at these locations was c.700 pairs. The
Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from Barrow. So which is more
likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow in 2006: they
are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles away
(taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?

>From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding
identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is
almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at
certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but
other than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are
extremely cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their
known range. To paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.

None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those
not suffering from Lariphilia.
Cheers,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com




On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo > wrote:

Kevin,
What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the
same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What
Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in
fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic
Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an
interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but
you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some
structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing.
Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known
stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of
the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB.
Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we
look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast
smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in
the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt
schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
Cheers,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
NC

Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its'
own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing
coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have
according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt",
which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were
not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well
behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a
mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by
their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls
are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can
be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you
can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their
Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull
based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to
the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls
over the last few years, and the physical differences between males
and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and
bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species.
Kevin Karlson



On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm > wrote:


Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult
timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they
are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could
fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is
tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I
still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on
colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!

Cheers, Norman


Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:




Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded
molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing
coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing
feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I
walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and
I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like
yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small
numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have
smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal
e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight
feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures
of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy
plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.

Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for
Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share
a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order
of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a
singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify
gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the
possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year.
Kevin Karlson





On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <<



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Thu Aug 10 2017 10:46 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Norman et al. 
Having birded a lot in the Caribbean, including most of the Lesser Antilles multiple times, and some in coastal Northern South America I can say that Lesser Black-backed is not that common there. They are regular down to N Colombia and Trinidad and Tobago, but the numbers drop off steeply when you compare Florida to Cuba. In other words, it seems that most are wintering from Florida and northward, many fewer south of Florida. If these patterns of numbers are real and not an effect, then most of the migration is happening north-south, not through a South American - African route, that would be the exception.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman Deans van Swelm
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 6:17 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Ah! Thank you Amar, slip of the keyboard, not Rhode Island bur Long Island and the bird was in active primary moult. It is well known that Lesser Black-backed Gulls get a lot older than the rings we put on them.
F.I. steel rings may already show cracks when in use for only three years, warm seawater in the tropics is blamed for that, a fact known already since mid 1950's. Same for plastic rings, esp.the coloured ones wear quickly, get damaged and fall off. A healthy LBBG on a diet of fish can easily get 30 to 40 years old. Our bird friom Long Island was never seen between ringing in 1990 and turning up in NY in 1997. If it had arrived via the Caribbean it most certainly was familiar with the coastal route to Florida. If our bird is indeed the Applledore gull it would have been 17 years old. Though it was found breeding in 2007 it could well have been breeding on Appledore since 1997! You will have to do with the Appledore pics as no other are available. I've never been called romantic, it must have developed over the years.

There are quite a few LBBG's around but if you feel all LBBG's in the US come from Greenland than I suggest you go there and colour ring them or better still give them a Californean satellite tag!

Good luck, Norman


Op 10-8-2017 om 13:58 schreef Amar Ayyash:
> With no intention of getting into a hairsplitting contest, I'd like to
> clarify that "the" first color-ringed LBBG found in the United States,
> from Europe, was in New York (October 1997). Not Rhode Island. I'm
> sure this is what you meant, Norman. I am however wondering what would
> posses anyone to think that this same bird lost its leg band and then
> 10 years later would be documented interbreeding with American Herring
> Gulls on Appledore Island! Seems very romantic albeit a great stretch
> of the imagination. Are there photos of the New York bird available?
>
> In any event, note that Green F05 had a consistent habit of migrating
> from Appledore Island to Florida, and back (2007-2011). It could be
> argued that this supports the notion that our Lessers in North America
> have a north-south migration route (as eBird reports suggest from late
> September through early November, and then again in March and April).
> Although there very well may be some adventurous LBBGs making the
> journey from NW Africa (and Iberia) to the Caribbean, there are over
> 90 LBBG color banding programs in Europe, and of the thousands and
> thousands of Lessers banded there, we have yet to find any in the last
> 15 years. And this is not due to a lack of effort! With this in mind,
> there were 3,000-5,000 pairs breeding in the exploding Greenland
> population as of 2012, with new colonies being found every summer
> (pers comm David Boertmann & Lars Maltha Rasmussen). I'm assuming
> numbers in these colonies have not decreased since then, and as far as
> I know, those birds aren't being banded. So yes, I think typical human
> logic should prevail here. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to the
> idea that Florida and points south of there may be getting some of
> their birds via the Canary Stream. However, the increasing numbers in
> Canada and the United States seems to be directly correlated with the
> increasing Greenland numbers. Ultimately though, I'm sure we'll learn one day that the explanation isn't as simple as any of us think it may be.
>
> Best,
> Amar Ayyash
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo
>
> wrote:
>
>> Norman,
>>
>> Actually the reason we hypothesize that ours come from Greenland,
>> is because we do NOT see more of your rings. There are multiple
>> places in the East where you can see over 100 Lesser BB Gulls in one
>> go, and we have not been finding rings. If they were from the UK or
>> Netherlands we assume we would be seeing more rings. We are frankly
>> sampling thousands of Lesser BB Gulls every year, and we do not find
>> rings. I got super excited when I found a banded Lesser some years
>> ago in Florida along with Michael Brothers well it was F5 from
>> Appledore fame! Correct me if I am wrong on the perceived low frequency of Euro-ringed Lessers in North America.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alvaro
>>
>>
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>>
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 4:38 PM
>> To: Alvaro Jaramillo ;
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; Martin Reid ; alvaro
>> Jaramillo
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
>> NC
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Alvaro, Martin and all,
>>
>> It's typical human logic to assume that the gulls breding closest to
>> the US must be the birds from,Greenland or NE Europe yet the first
>> colour-ringed LBBG found in the US (Rhode Island) was a chick ringed
>> seven years before by me in The Port of Rotterdam in the largest gull
>> colony of the world, As the rings I then used were rather vulnerable
>> the ring must have fallen off soon after it was found and I like to
>> think that he is the Appledore gull fathering several hybrid young with his smithonianus mate.
>> Years and tens of thousands more colour-ringed gulls later our
>> Icelandic chick went to Puerto Rico. How? Well our human mind says it
>> took the shortest route and flew in a straight line to Puerto Rico.
>> But did it and why should it have done so since our other
>> colour-ringed Icelandic LBBG's flew SE and joined their British and
>> Dutch brothers and sisters on their way to Iberia and W.Africa! The
>> coast of NW Africa is teeming with young adventurous LBBG's in autumn
>> and some of them including the two colour-ringed birds could have
>> followed the Canary Stream and ended up in the Caribbean. Just think
>> about that. As the Greenland breeders are of the same stock as the
>> Icelanders, Brits and Dutch I am convinced that they too follow their
>> kin to NW Africa though ofcourse some may straggle into Canada. Why
>> not use more of the tiny satellite tags produced in California? Great stuff, they already gave great results with waders?
>>
>> As for the dark birds that bred in Alaskan why could they not have
>> been the darkest Heuglin's Gulls? Taimyr Gulls are not very dark
>> mantled and when I see the fledgelings in the link below the juv. may
>> resemble a young Dutch Herring Gull rather than a dark juv. LBBG!
>> There are ofcourse two more candidates to visit the western US i.e.
>> Baraba and Mongolian Gull. The latter is now frequently found in
>> India where it probably was overlooked previously.
>>
>> greetings, Norman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>> (
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 9-8-2017 om 19:24 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:
>>
>> Martin
>> Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian
>> Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus
>> far the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in
>> California. Not obvious in the first sightings (January), but much
>> more so in the March sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>> But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"
>>
>> Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults.
>> As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later
>> on average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But
>> little attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me
>> think that first cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what
>> the adults do. It is all about energy expense, and when you have
>> enough energy resources to molt, and this shifts depending on other
>> needs. Long migration is one of these needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America.
>> Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas.
>> This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are
>> coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are
>> breeding in an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or
>> not? Availability of food in the breeding area, timing of the
>> breeding season, and various other details specifically relating to
>> breeding would shift the molt of the adults, but not necessarily the
>> young of the year. These are of course unknowns since we are not
>> clear on where the North American birds come from, Greenland is the
>> obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But your note did make
>> me think that molt timing shifts may be different in adults vs young,
>> depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
>> Alvaro
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
>> NC
>>
>> Gullers and all,
>> My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal
>> wintering range during the summer are a really variable bunch in
>> terms of molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of
>> bird H significantly late? I dont think so - at least not compared
>> to the other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for
>> some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:
>>
>> Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
>> Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
>> Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from
>> coverts;
>> P5-P10 old.
>> Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond
>> coverts; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite
>> visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.
>>
>> Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.
>>
>> Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is
>> barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight
>> individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt
>> stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id
>> say that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so.
>> Add into this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter
>> in the Americas are now molting much later than their European
>> counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
>> In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the
>> primary molt timing of bird H.
>>
>> Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual?
>> Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and
>> the others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All
>> the other birds have completed the replacement of the contour
>> feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of
>> replacing its body feathers - gaps are apparent in a number of
>> places. Combined with the very poor condition of the unreplaced
>> inner wing feathers, this suggests that this bird is in poor
>> condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the middle of
>> replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements can -
>> depending on their combined locations - significantly change the
>> structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the
>> missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then
>> exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing
>> reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the
>> apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
>> In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the
>> apparent structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see
>> that Jan has expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I
>> have invested some time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!
>>
>>
>> I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as
>> refuting the notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do
>> occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that
>> individuals of these taxa occur here, remaining unseen or
>> undetectable. In the Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of
>> LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and south has decreased our
>> chances of recognizing potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of
>> IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less rare they receive less
>> scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in
>> California being from the donor population of the northeastern
>> expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago when
>> there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.
>>
>> LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first
>> Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an
>> individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to
>> know just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records
>> of LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of
>> European LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more
>> likely that these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic
>> Siberia) than the east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that
>> period, LBBG-types have been found in far northern and western Alaska
>> - surely those birds came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?
>>
>> Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at
>> Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the
>> nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
>> Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (
>> http://gull-research.org/heugl...
>> Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin
>> Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
>> Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly
>> 2,000 miles before the end of September!
>> - it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through
>> their migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south -
>> who knows where such birds might get to?
>> FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types
>> at Barrow in June 2006
>> (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>> ).
>>
>> On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin
>> LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of
>> southern Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly,
>> with at least a several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the
>> breeding population at these locations was c.700 pairs. The
>> Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from Barrow. So which is more
>> likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow in 2006: they
>> are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles away
>> (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?
>>
>> >From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding
>> identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is
>> almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at
>> certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but
>> other than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are
>> extremely cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their
>> known range. To paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.
>>
>> None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those
>> not suffering from Lariphilia.
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>> ---
>> Martin Reid
>> San Antonio
>> www.martinreid.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao@COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
>>
>> Kevin,
>> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the
>> same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What
>> Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in
>> fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic
>> Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an
>> interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but
>> you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some
>> structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing.
>> Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known
>> stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of
>> the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB.
>> Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
>> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we
>> look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast
>> smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in
>> the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt
>> schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
>> Cheers,
>> Alvaro
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach
>> NC
>>
>> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its'
>> own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing
>> coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have
>> according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt",
>> which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were
>> not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well
>> behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a
>> mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by
>> their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls
>> are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can
>> be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you
>> can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their
>> Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull
>> based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to
>> the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls
>> over the last few years, and the physical differences between males
>> and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and
>> bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species.
>> Kevin Karlson
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm > norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult
>> timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they
>> are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could
>> fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is
>> tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I
>> still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on
>> colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>>
>> Cheers, Norman
>>
>>
>> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded
>> molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing
>> coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing
>> feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I
>> walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and
>> I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like
>> yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small
>> numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have
>> smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal
>> e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight
>> feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures
>> of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy
>> plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>>
>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for
>> Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share
>> a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order
>> of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a
>> singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify
>> gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the
>> possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year.
>> Kevin Karlson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis > 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
>> <000003c10156bb77-dmarc- request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
>> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc- request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>
>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina).
>> On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least
>> eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>
>> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/
>> birds/sunset.html <
>> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>> http://home.bway.net/lewis/ birds/sunset.html
>>
>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and
>> very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland,
>> and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble
>> heuglini. Any opinions?
>>
>> Bob Lewis
>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>
>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring
>> Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Thu Aug 10 2017 10:35 am
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Ah! Thank you Amar, slip of the keyboard, not Rhode Island bur Long
Island and the bird was in active primary moult. It is well known that
Lesser Black-backed Gulls get a lot older than the rings we put on them.
F.I. steel rings may already show cracks when in use for only three
years, warm seawater in the tropics is blamed for that, a fact known
already since mid 1950's. Same for plastic rings, esp.the coloured ones
wear quickly, get damaged and fall off. A healthy LBBG on a diet of fish
can easily get 30 to 40 years old. Our bird friom Long Island was never
seen between ringing in 1990 and turning up in NY in 1997. If it had
arrived via the Caribbean it most certainly was familiar with the
coastal route to Florida. If our bird is indeed the Applledore gull it
would have been 17 years old. Though it was found breeding in 2007 it
could well have been breeding on Appledore since 1997! You will have to
do with the Appledore pics as no other are available. I've never been
called romantic, it must have developed over the years.

There are quite a few LBBG's around but if you feel all LBBG's in the US
come from Greenland than I suggest you go there and colour ring them or
better still give them a Californean satellite tag!

Good luck, Norman


Op 10-8-2017 om 13:58 schreef Amar Ayyash:
> With no intention of getting into a hairsplitting contest, I'd like to
> clarify that "the" first color-ringed LBBG found in the United States, from
> Europe, was in New York (October 1997). Not Rhode Island. I'm sure this is
> what you meant, Norman. I am however wondering what would posses anyone to
> think that this same bird lost its leg band and then 10 years later would
> be documented interbreeding with American Herring Gulls on Appledore
> Island! Seems very romantic albeit a great stretch of the imagination. Are
> there photos of the New York bird available?
>
> In any event, note that Green F05 had a consistent habit of migrating from
> Appledore Island to Florida, and back (2007-2011). It could be argued that
> this supports the notion that our Lessers in North America have a
> north-south migration route (as eBird reports suggest from late September
> through early November, and then again in March and April). Although there
> very well may be some adventurous LBBGs making the journey from NW Africa
> (and Iberia) to the Caribbean, there are over 90 LBBG color banding
> programs in Europe, and of the thousands and thousands of Lessers banded
> there, we have yet to find any in the last 15 years. And this is not due to
> a lack of effort! With this in mind, there were 3,000-5,000 pairs breeding
> in the exploding Greenland population as of 2012, with new colonies being
> found every summer (pers comm David Boertmann & Lars Maltha Rasmussen). I'm
> assuming numbers in these colonies have not decreased since then, and as
> far as I know, those birds aren't being banded. So yes, I think typical
> human logic should prevail here. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to the
> idea that Florida and points south of there may be getting some of their
> birds via the Canary Stream. However, the increasing numbers in Canada and
> the United States seems to be directly correlated with the increasing
> Greenland numbers. Ultimately though, I'm sure we'll learn one day that the
> explanation isn't as simple as any of us think it may be.
>
> Best,
> Amar Ayyash
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo
> wrote:
>
>> Norman,
>>
>> Actually the reason we hypothesize that ours come from Greenland, is
>> because we do NOT see more of your rings. There are multiple places in the
>> East where you can see over 100 Lesser BB Gulls in one go, and we have not
>> been finding rings. If they were from the UK or Netherlands we assume we
>> would be seeing more rings. We are frankly sampling thousands of Lesser BB
>> Gulls every year, and we do not find rings. I got super excited when I
>> found a banded Lesser some years ago in Florida along with Michael Brothers
>> well it was F5 from Appledore fame! Correct me if I am wrong on the
>> perceived low frequency of Euro-ringed Lessers in North America.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alvaro
>>
>>
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>>
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 4:38 PM
>> To: Alvaro Jaramillo ; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;
>> Martin Reid ; alvaro Jaramillo
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Alvaro, Martin and all,
>>
>> It's typical human logic to assume that the gulls breding closest to the
>> US must be the birds from,Greenland or NE Europe yet the first
>> colour-ringed LBBG found in the US (Rhode Island) was a chick ringed seven
>> years before by me in The Port of Rotterdam in the largest gull colony of
>> the world, As the rings I then used were rather vulnerable the ring must
>> have fallen off soon after it was found and I like to think that he is the
>> Appledore gull fathering several hybrid young with his smithonianus mate.
>> Years and tens of thousands more colour-ringed gulls later our Icelandic
>> chick went to Puerto Rico. How? Well our human mind says it took the
>> shortest route and flew in a straight line to Puerto Rico. But did it and
>> why should it have done so since our other colour-ringed Icelandic LBBG's
>> flew SE and joined their British and Dutch brothers and sisters on their
>> way to Iberia and W.Africa! The coast of NW Africa is teeming with young
>> adventurous LBBG's in autumn and some of them including the two
>> colour-ringed birds could have followed the Canary Stream and ended up in
>> the Caribbean. Just think about that. As the Greenland breeders are of the
>> same stock as the Icelanders, Brits and Dutch I am convinced that they too
>> follow their kin to NW Africa though ofcourse some may straggle into
>> Canada. Why not use more of the tiny satellite tags produced in
>> California? Great stuff, they already gave great results with waders?
>>
>> As for the dark birds that bred in Alaskan why could they not have been
>> the darkest Heuglin's Gulls? Taimyr Gulls are not very dark mantled and
>> when I see the fledgelings in the link below the juv. may resemble a young
>> Dutch Herring Gull rather than a dark juv. LBBG! There are ofcourse two
>> more candidates to visit the western US i.e. Baraba and Mongolian Gull. The
>> latter is now frequently found in India where it probably was overlooked
>> previously.
>>
>> greetings, Norman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>> (
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 9-8-2017 om 19:24 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:
>>
>> Martin
>> Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian
>> Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus far
>> the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in California. Not
>> obvious in the first sightings (January), but much more so in the March
>> sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>> But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"
>>
>> Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults.
>> As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later on
>> average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But little
>> attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me think that first
>> cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what the adults do. It is all
>> about energy expense, and when you have enough energy resources to molt,
>> and this shifts depending on other needs. Long migration is one of these
>> needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America.
>> Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas.
>> This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are
>> coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are breeding in
>> an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or not? Availability of
>> food in the breeding area, timing of the breeding season, and various other
>> details specifically relating to breeding would shift the molt of the
>> adults, but not necessarily the young of the year. These are of course
>> unknowns since we are not clear on where the North American birds come
>> from, Greenland is the obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But
>> your note did make me think that molt timing shifts may be different in
>> adults vs young, depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I
>> had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
>> Alvaro
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>>
>> Gullers and all,
>> My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal wintering
>> range during the summer are a really variable bunch in terms of molt stage
>> and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of bird H significantly
>> late? I dont think so - at least not compared to the other birds in the
>> same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is
>> the molt stage of all the birds:
>>
>> Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
>> Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
>> Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from coverts;
>> P5-P10 old.
>> Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond
>> coverts; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>> Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite visible
>> beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.
>>
>> Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.
>>
>> Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is
>> barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight
>> individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt
>> stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id say
>> that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so. Add into
>> this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter in the Americas
>> are now molting much later than their European counterparts - albeit that
>> my view of this is based on adults.
>> In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the primary
>> molt timing of bird H.
>>
>> Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual?
>> Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and the
>> others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All the other
>> birds have completed the replacement of the contour feathers, or have
>> almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of replacing its body feathers -
>> gaps are apparent in a number of places. Combined with the very poor
>> condition of the unreplaced inner wing feathers, this suggests that this
>> bird is in poor condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the
>> middle of replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements
>> can - depending on their combined locations - significantly change the
>> structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the
>> missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then
>> exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing
>> reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the
>> apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not
>> uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
>> In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the apparent
>> structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan has
>> expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I have invested some
>> time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!
>>
>>
>> I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as refuting the
>> notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do occur in the
>> Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that individuals of these taxa
>> occur here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the Americas the recent
>> rapid growth and spread of LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and
>> south has decreased our chances of recognizing potential
>> heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of IDing them), because as LBBG-types become
>> less rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of
>> a LBBG-type in California being from the donor population of the
>> northeastern expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago
>> when there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the
>> south.
>>
>> LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first
>> Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an
>> individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know
>> just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records of
>> LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of European
>> LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more likely that
>> these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the
>> east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that period, LBBG-types have
>> been found in far northern and western Alaska - surely those birds came
>> from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?
>>
>> Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at
>> Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the
>> nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
>> Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (
>> http://gull-research.org/heugl...
>> Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin Island,
>> c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
>> Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly 2,000
>> miles before the end of September!
>> - it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through their
>> migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south - who knows
>> where such birds might get to?
>> FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types at
>> Barrow in June 2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>> ).
>>
>> On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin
>> LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of southern
>> Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly, with at least a
>> several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding population at these
>> locations was c.700 pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from
>> Barrow. So which is more likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in
>> Barrow in 2006: they are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles
>> away (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300
>> miles away (graellsii-types)?
>>
>> >From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding
>> identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is
>> almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at
>> certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but other
>> than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are extremely cautious
>> about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their known range. To
>> paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.
>>
>> None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those not
>> suffering from Lariphilia.
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>> ---
>> Martin Reid
>> San Antonio
>> www.martinreid.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao@COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
>>
>> Kevin,
>> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page
>> as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman
>> are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to
>> determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a
>> Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea
>> if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add
>> that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become
>> intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known
>> stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the
>> norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again,
>> interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor
>> experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
>> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for
>> molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later
>> to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB
>> type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing
>> taymirensis.
>> Cheers,
>> Alvaro
>>
>> Alvaro Jaramillo
>> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>> www.alvarosadventures.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>>
>> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own
>> molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and
>> many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that
>> species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that
>> feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a
>> retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears
>> excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in
>> large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk,
>> and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme
>> individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them
>> paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve
>> Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex
>> to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say
>> "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many
>> paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between
>> males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and
>> bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs,
>> although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species.
>> Kevin Karlson
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm > norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing,
>> there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very
>> worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's
>> Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on
>> f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but
>> my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the
>> fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>>
>> Cheers, Norman
>>
>>
>> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may
>> appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a
>> lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter
>> onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in
>> summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of
>> young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a
>> male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although
>> the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in
>> your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight
>> feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of
>> fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is
>> what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a
>> follower of gulls for many years.
>>
>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ
>> Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual
>> collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many
>> digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so
>> that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a
>> book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as
>> juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year.
>> Kevin Karlson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis > 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-
>> request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-
>> request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>>
>>
>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina).
>> On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight
>> different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>
>> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/
>> birds/sunset.html <
>> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/
>> birds/sunset.html
>>
>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very
>> long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North
>> America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any
>> opinions?
>>
>> Bob Lewis
>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>
>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a
>> couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Thu Aug 10 2017 6:59 am
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
With no intention of getting into a hairsplitting contest, I'd like to
clarify that "the" first color-ringed LBBG found in the United States, from
Europe, was in New York (October 1997). Not Rhode Island. I'm sure this is
what you meant, Norman. I am however wondering what would posses anyone to
think that this same bird lost its leg band and then 10 years later would
be documented interbreeding with American Herring Gulls on Appledore
Island! Seems very romantic albeit a great stretch of the imagination. Are
there photos of the New York bird available?

In any event, note that Green F05 had a consistent habit of migrating from
Appledore Island to Florida, and back (2007-2011). It could be argued that
this supports the notion that our Lessers in North America have a
north-south migration route (as eBird reports suggest from late September
through early November, and then again in March and April). Although there
very well may be some adventurous LBBGs making the journey from NW Africa
(and Iberia) to the Caribbean, there are over 90 LBBG color banding
programs in Europe, and of the thousands and thousands of Lessers banded
there, we have yet to find any in the last 15 years. And this is not due to
a lack of effort! With this in mind, there were 3,000-5,000 pairs breeding
in the exploding Greenland population as of 2012, with new colonies being
found every summer (pers comm David Boertmann & Lars Maltha Rasmussen). I'm
assuming numbers in these colonies have not decreased since then, and as
far as I know, those birds aren't being banded. So yes, I think typical
human logic should prevail here. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to the
idea that Florida and points south of there may be getting some of their
birds via the Canary Stream. However, the increasing numbers in Canada and
the United States seems to be directly correlated with the increasing
Greenland numbers. Ultimately though, I'm sure we'll learn one day that the
explanation isn't as simple as any of us think it may be.

Best,
Amar Ayyash


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> Norman,
>
> Actually the reason we hypothesize that ours come from Greenland, is
> because we do NOT see more of your rings. There are multiple places in the
> East where you can see over 100 Lesser BB Gulls in one go, and we have not
> been finding rings. If they were from the UK or Netherlands we assume we
> would be seeing more rings. We are frankly sampling thousands of Lesser BB
> Gulls every year, and we do not find rings. I got super excited when I
> found a banded Lesser some years ago in Florida along with Michael Brothers
> well it was F5 from Appledore fame! Correct me if I am wrong on the
> perceived low frequency of Euro-ringed Lessers in North America.
>
>
>
> Alvaro
>
>
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
>
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
>
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
>
>
> From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 4:38 PM
> To: Alvaro Jaramillo ; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;
> Martin Reid ; alvaro Jaramillo
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
>
>
> Hi Alvaro, Martin and all,
>
> It's typical human logic to assume that the gulls breding closest to the
> US must be the birds from,Greenland or NE Europe yet the first
> colour-ringed LBBG found in the US (Rhode Island) was a chick ringed seven
> years before by me in The Port of Rotterdam in the largest gull colony of
> the world, As the rings I then used were rather vulnerable the ring must
> have fallen off soon after it was found and I like to think that he is the
> Appledore gull fathering several hybrid young with his smithonianus mate.
> Years and tens of thousands more colour-ringed gulls later our Icelandic
> chick went to Puerto Rico. How? Well our human mind says it took the
> shortest route and flew in a straight line to Puerto Rico. But did it and
> why should it have done so since our other colour-ringed Icelandic LBBG's
> flew SE and joined their British and Dutch brothers and sisters on their
> way to Iberia and W.Africa! The coast of NW Africa is teeming with young
> adventurous LBBG's in autumn and some of them including the two
> colour-ringed birds could have followed the Canary Stream and ended up in
> the Caribbean. Just think about that. As the Greenland breeders are of the
> same stock as the Icelanders, Brits and Dutch I am convinced that they too
> follow their kin to NW Africa though ofcourse some may straggle into
> Canada. Why not use more of the tiny satellite tags produced in
> California? Great stuff, they already gave great results with waders?
>
> As for the dark birds that bred in Alaskan why could they not have been
> the darkest Heuglin's Gulls? Taimyr Gulls are not very dark mantled and
> when I see the fledgelings in the link below the juv. may resemble a young
> Dutch Herring Gull rather than a dark juv. LBBG! There are ofcourse two
> more candidates to visit the western US i.e. Baraba and Mongolian Gull. The
> latter is now frequently found in India where it probably was overlooked
> previously.
>
> greetings, Norman
>
>
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
> (
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
>
> Op 9-8-2017 om 19:24 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:
>
> Martin
> Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian
> Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus far
> the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in California. Not
> obvious in the first sightings (January), but much more so in the March
> sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
> But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"
>
> Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults.
> As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later on
> average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But little
> attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me think that first
> cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what the adults do. It is all
> about energy expense, and when you have enough energy resources to molt,
> and this shifts depending on other needs. Long migration is one of these
> needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America.
> Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas.
> This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are
> coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are breeding in
> an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or not? Availability of
> food in the breeding area, timing of the breeding season, and various other
> details specifically relating to breeding would shift the molt of the
> adults, but not necessarily the young of the year. These are of course
> unknowns since we are not clear on where the North American birds come
> from, Greenland is the obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But
> your note did make me think that molt timing shifts may be different in
> adults vs young, depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I
> had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
> Gullers and all,
> My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal wintering
> range during the summer are a really variable bunch in terms of molt stage
> and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of bird H significantly
> late? I dont think so - at least not compared to the other birds in the
> same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is
> the molt stage of all the birds:
>
> Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
> Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
> Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
> Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from coverts;
> P5-P10 old.
> Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond
> coverts; P7-P10 old.
> Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
> Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite visible
> beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.
>
> Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.
>
> Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is
> barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight
> individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt
> stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id say
> that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so. Add into
> this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter in the Americas
> are now molting much later than their European counterparts - albeit that
> my view of this is based on adults.
> In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the primary
> molt timing of bird H.
>
> Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual?
> Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and the
> others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All the other
> birds have completed the replacement of the contour feathers, or have
> almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of replacing its body feathers -
> gaps are apparent in a number of places. Combined with the very poor
> condition of the unreplaced inner wing feathers, this suggests that this
> bird is in poor condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the
> middle of replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements
> can - depending on their combined locations - significantly change the
> structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the
> missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then
> exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing
> reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the
> apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not
> uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
> In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the apparent
> structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan has
> expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I have invested some
> time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!
>
>
> I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as refuting the
> notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do occur in the
> Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that individuals of these taxa
> occur here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the Americas the recent
> rapid growth and spread of LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and
> south has decreased our chances of recognizing potential
> heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of IDing them), because as LBBG-types become
> less rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of
> a LBBG-type in California being from the donor population of the
> northeastern expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago
> when there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the
> south.
>
> LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first
> Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an
> individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know
> just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records of
> LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of European
> LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more likely that
> these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the
> east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that period, LBBG-types have
> been found in far northern and western Alaska - surely those birds came
> from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?
>
> Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at
> Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the
> nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
> Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (
> http://gull-research.org/heugl...
> Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin Island,
> c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
> Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly 2,000
> miles before the end of September!
> - it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through their
> migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south - who knows
> where such birds might get to?
> FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types at
> Barrow in June 2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> ).
>
> On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin
> LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of southern
> Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly, with at least a
> several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding population at these
> locations was c.700 pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from
> Barrow. So which is more likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in
> Barrow in 2006: they are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles
> away (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300
> miles away (graellsii-types)?
>
> >From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding
> identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is
> almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at
> certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but other
> than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are extremely cautious
> about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their known range. To
> paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.
>
> None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those not
> suffering from Lariphilia.
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo chucao@COASTSIDE.NET> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page
> as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman
> are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to
> determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a
> Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea
> if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add
> that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become
> intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known
> stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the
> norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again,
> interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor
> experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for
> molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later
> to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB
> type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing
> taymirensis.
> Cheers,
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own
> molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and
> many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that
> species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that
> feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a
> retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears
> excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in
> large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk,
> and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme
> individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them
> paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve
> Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex
> to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say
> "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many
> paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between
> males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and
> bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs,
> although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species.
> Kevin Karlson
>
>
>
> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing,
> there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very
> worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's
> Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on
> f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but
> my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the
> fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>
> Cheers, Norman
>
>
> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>
>
>
>
> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may
> appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a
> lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter
> onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in
> summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of
> young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a
> male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although
> the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in
> your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight
> feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of
> fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is
> what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a
> follower of gulls for many years.
>
> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ
> Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual
> collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many
> digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so
> that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a
> book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as
> juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year.
> Kevin Karlson
>
>
>
>
>
> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-
> request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-
> request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>
>
> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina).
> On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight
> different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>
> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/
> birds/sunset.html <
> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/
> birds/sunset.html
>
> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very
> long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North
> America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any
> opinions?
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a
> couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 18:46 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Norman, 

Actually the reason we hypothesize that ours come from Greenland, is because we do NOT see more of your rings. There are multiple places in the East where you can see over 100 Lesser BB Gulls in one go, and we have not been finding rings. If they were from the UK or Netherlands we assume we would be seeing more rings. We are frankly sampling thousands of Lesser BB Gulls every year, and we do not find rings. I got super excited when I found a banded Lesser some years ago in Florida along with Michael Brothers well it was F5 from Appledore fame! Correct me if I am wrong on the perceived low frequency of Euro-ringed Lessers in North America.



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm@wxs.nl]
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Alvaro Jaramillo ; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; Martin Reid ; alvaro Jaramillo
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC



Hi Alvaro, Martin and all,

It's typical human logic to assume that the gulls breding closest to the US must be the birds from,Greenland or NE Europe yet the first colour-ringed LBBG found in the US (Rhode Island) was a chick ringed seven years before by me in The Port of Rotterdam in the largest gull colony of the world, As the rings I then used were rather vulnerable the ring must have fallen off soon after it was found and I like to think that he is the Appledore gull fathering several hybrid young with his smithonianus mate. Years and tens of thousands more colour-ringed gulls later our Icelandic chick went to Puerto Rico. How? Well our human mind says it took the shortest route and flew in a straight line to Puerto Rico. But did it and why should it have done so since our other colour-ringed Icelandic LBBG's flew SE and joined their British and Dutch brothers and sisters on their way to Iberia and W.Africa! The coast of NW Africa is teeming with young adventurous LBBG's in autumn and some of them including the two colour-ringed birds could have followed the Canary Stream and ended up in the Caribbean. Just think about that. As the Greenland breeders are of the same stock as the Icelanders, Brits and Dutch I am convinced that they too follow their kin to NW Africa though ofcourse some may straggle into Canada. Why not use more of the tiny satellite tags produced in California? Great stuff, they already gave great results with waders?

As for the dark birds that bred in Alaskan why could they not have been the darkest Heuglin's Gulls? Taimyr Gulls are not very dark mantled and when I see the fledgelings in the link below the juv. may resemble a young Dutch Herring Gull rather than a dark juv. LBBG! There are ofcourse two more candidates to visit the western US i.e. Baraba and Mongolian Gull. The latter is now frequently found in India where it probably was overlooked previously.

greetings, Norman





http://radioactiverobins.com/a...

(


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...




Op 9-8-2017 om 19:24 schreef Alvaro Jaramillo:

Martin
Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus far the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in California. Not obvious in the first sightings (January), but much more so in the March sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"

Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults. As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later on average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But little attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me think that first cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what the adults do. It is all about energy expense, and when you have enough energy resources to molt, and this shifts depending on other needs. Long migration is one of these needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America. Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas. This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are breeding in an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or not? Availability of food in the breeding area, timing of the breeding season, and various other details specifically relating to breeding would shift the molt of the adults, but not necessarily the young of the year. These are of course unknowns since we are not clear on where the North American birds come from, Greenland is the obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But your note did make me think that molt timing shifts may be different in adults vs young, depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Gullers and all,
My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal wintering range during the summer are a really variable bunch in terms of molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of bird H significantly late? I dont think so - at least not compared to the other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:

Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from coverts; P5-P10 old.
Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond coverts; P7-P10 old.
Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.

Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.

Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id say that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so. Add into this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter in the Americas are now molting much later than their European counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the primary molt timing of bird H.

Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual? Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and the others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All the other birds have completed the replacement of the contour feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of replacing its body feathers - gaps are apparent in a number of places. Combined with the very poor condition of the unreplaced inner wing feathers, this suggests that this bird is in poor condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the middle of replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements can - depending on their combined locations - significantly change the structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the apparent structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan has expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I have invested some time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!


I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as refuting the notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that individuals of these taxa occur here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and south has decreased our chances of recognizing potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in California being from the donor population of the northeastern expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago when there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.

LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records of LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of European LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more likely that these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that period, LBBG-types have been found in far northern and western Alaska - surely those birds came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?

Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (http://gull-research.org/heugl...
Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly 2,000 miles before the end of September!
- it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through their migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south - who knows where such birds might get to?
FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types at Barrow in June 2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of southern Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly, with at least a several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding population at these locations was c.700 pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from Barrow. So which is more likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow in 2006: they are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles away (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?

>From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but other than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are extremely cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their known range. To paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.

None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those not suffering from Lariphilia.
Cheers,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com




On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:

Kevin,
What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
Cheers,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson



On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:


Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!

Cheers, Norman


Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:




Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.

Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson





On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 17:01 pm
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
I am amazed to read that there are routinely 100+ Lessers in southern New Jersey during the summer.

Ive not been paying much attention to gulls the last fifteen years, but the increase in numbers of Lessers is amazing. This summer, in June and July, I also spent time at Nickerson Beach, Jones Beach (briefly) and Cupsoque Beach (total of about 7 hours). These are all on the south shore of Long Island, NY. At Nickerson in late June there were two Lessers among dozens of Herrings and Great Black-backeds. At Jones Beach on one brief trip there were 2 Lessers and maybe 20 Herrings and GBBGs. At Cupsogue on three trips I saw no Lessers among a great many Herrings and GBBGs. Hence my great surprise when I encountered so many Lessers much farther south in North Carolina.

Now of course this is not a definitive survey, but still, if these birds are all breeding in Greenland, why are they spending the summer so far south? I wonder how many Lessers are spending the summer elsewhere in the Carolinas?

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY


> On Aug 9, 2017, at 4:37 PM, KEVIN karlson wrote:
>
> Norman, I don't try to sex non-extreme gulls outside the breeding season, but every gull species that I have seen copulating or paired on breeding sites has shown differences is size, bill size and often leg length/body bulk. Sometimes these differences are very subtle, but sometimes very obvious. You just have to develop the ability to see subtle differences in structure and bill size/shape.
> I have to go to the bank before it closes, but I will put several photos up on the site when I get home that show differences in small gull species like Laughing Gull, and larger gull species. Thanks, Norman, for your careful notes about this issue, and I agree that most gulls seen in the field are best left unsexed. Howell and Dunn make occasional comments of photos in their book based on extreme birds with very large bills, but they always use the word "probable".
> Special thanks to Jan, Al,Peter and Martin for clarifying what I was thinking before about this bird, but did not know how to put it into words. Very clear and logical explanation about immature LBBGs. I have thousands of photos of these birds from Stone Harbor Point, with a high of about 125 one day last summer late, and I have a heck of a time making sense of the variety of plumage variation in birds that are the same age. Makes Herring Gull look easier.
> Kevin Karlon
>> On August 9, 2017 at 2:00 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 15:39 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Norman, I don't try to sex non-extreme gulls outside the breeding season, but every gull species that I have seen copulating or paired on breeding sites has shown differences is size, bill size and often leg length/body bulk. Sometimes these differences are very subtle, but sometimes very obvious. You just have to develop the ability to see subtle differences in structure and bill size/shape. 
I have to go to the bank before it closes, but I will put several photos up on the site when I get home that show differences in small gull species like Laughing Gull, and larger gull species. Thanks, Norman, for your careful notes about this issue, and I agree that most gulls seen in the field are best left unsexed. Howell and Dunn make occasional comments of photos in their book based on extreme birds with very large bills, but they always use the word "probable".
Special thanks to Jan, Al,Peter and Martin for clarifying what I was thinking before about this bird, but did not know how to put it into words. Very clear and logical explanation about immature LBBGs. I have thousands of photos of these birds from Stone Harbor Point, with a high of about 125 one day last summer late, and I have a heck of a time making sense of the variety of plumage variation in birds that are the same age. Makes Herring Gull look easier.
Kevin Karlon
> On August 9, 2017 at 2:00 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kevin and al,
>
> Yes in gulls males are bigger than females and the extremes i.e.very
> small females and large males can be recognized like you said. However
> the bulk of the gulls are not in the extreme league and even in the
> colonies you need to look carefull in order distinguish the sexes even
> if the partners stand side by side but if there is only one partner near
> the nest things begin to become trickier, Outside the breeding season in
> groups of mixed ages it becomes much worse. Don't say I didn't warn you!
> Below I have selected some pictures of extremes in closely related gulls.
>
> Regards, Norman
>
> picture 01 here:
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> picture 21 here:
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
> scroll down to see pictures taken on 27082005 in Portugal here:
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
> and here:for less extreme differences
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT)
> VFrom: KEVIN karlson
> Answer to: KEVIN karlson
> to: Norman Deans van Swelm ,
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
>
>
> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own
> molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts
> and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to
> that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means
> that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result
> of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and
> appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not
> uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill
> length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard
> with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until
> you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical
> differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas
> frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters,
> but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned
> below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the
> physical differences between males and females remains consistent with
> larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills,
> and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in
> the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Heuglin's Gulls are quite used to long flights but in as far as the US
> is concerned it may make some difference as to which route they took.
> Same for Lesser Black-backs. Did he, did they take the southern route
> and followed the Canary Gulfstream bringing them to the Caribbean or the
> northern route from NW Russia to New Foundland and further south? It
> took one of our Icelandic Lessers 3 months to get to Puerto Rico. As I
> wrote before the moult of your birds is not out of sync, the timing is
> normal however the wear and tear of the feathers is extreme as a result
> of exposure to sunlight after all your holiday took place at more or
> less the same latitude as NW Africa where most Lesser Black-backs have
> left during spring. I imagine the Cape May gulls are all immature as well.
>
> What about the breeding status of Lesser Black-back in the US? Still
> only the one mixed pair?
>
> Cheers, Norman
>
>
>
> Op 8-8-2017 om 20:53 schreef Robert Lewis:
> > Thanks for your interest and comments.
> >
> > My initial puzzlement at Bird ack inH was not due to the state of molt, which is odd but not all that odd. I was struck by the the combination of long bill, sloping forehead, and long legs. It seems to be a more extreme case than any Ive seen in your photographs or any others in North America. Hence my musings over heuglini. If a heuglini were to show up here, maybe it would also have oddly worn feathers after that long flight, or be out of sync in molt.
> >
> > Amazing that you have up to 75 Lessers at Cape May in summer. What about other seasons?
> >
> > Bob Lewis
> > Sleepy Hollow NY
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, KEVIN karlson wrote:
> >> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> >> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
> >>
> >> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
> >>
> >>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis<000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> >>>
> >>> Photos of these birds are athttp://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> >>>
> >>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> >>>
> >>> Bob Lewis
> >>> Sleepy Hollow NY
> >>>
> >>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> >>> Archives:https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > Archives:https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 13:39 pm
From: birds.jorgensen AT blixtmail.se
 
Alvaro, nice that you should mention Brians taimyrensiscandidate because I remeber that from FB. I certainly hope the likn is correct now...

https://www.facebook.com/group...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 13:19 pm
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Hi Kevin and al,

Yes in gulls males are bigger than females and the extremes i.e.very
small females and large males can be recognized like you said. However
the bulk of the gulls are not in the extreme league and even in the
colonies you need to look carefull in order distinguish the sexes even
if the partners stand side by side but if there is only one partner near
the nest things begin to become trickier, Outside the breeding season in
groups of mixed ages it becomes much worse. Don't say I didn't warn you!
Below I have selected some pictures of extremes in closely related gulls.

Regards, Norman

picture 01 here:


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



picture 21 here:


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...


scroll down to see pictures taken on 27082005 in Portugal here:


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...


and here:for less extreme differences


http://radioactiverobins.com/a...













Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT)
VFrom: KEVIN karlson
Answer to: KEVIN karlson
to: Norman Deans van Swelm ,
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU



Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own
molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts
and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to
that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means
that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result
of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and
appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not
uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill
length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard
with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until
you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical
differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas
frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters,
but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned
below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the
physical differences between males and females remains consistent with
larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills,
and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in
the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson

Hi Bob,

Heuglin's Gulls are quite used to long flights but in as far as the US
is concerned it may make some difference as to which route they took.
Same for Lesser Black-backs. Did he, did they take the southern route
and followed the Canary Gulfstream bringing them to the Caribbean or the
northern route from NW Russia to New Foundland and further south? It
took one of our Icelandic Lessers 3 months to get to Puerto Rico. As I
wrote before the moult of your birds is not out of sync, the timing is
normal however the wear and tear of the feathers is extreme as a result
of exposure to sunlight after all your holiday took place at more or
less the same latitude as NW Africa where most Lesser Black-backs have
left during spring. I imagine the Cape May gulls are all immature as well.

What about the breeding status of Lesser Black-back in the US? Still
only the one mixed pair?

Cheers, Norman



Op 8-8-2017 om 20:53 schreef Robert Lewis:
> Thanks for your interest and comments.
>
> My initial puzzlement at Bird ack inH was not due to the state of molt, which is odd but not all that odd. I was struck by the the combination of long bill, sloping forehead, and long legs. It seems to be a more extreme case than any Ive seen in your photographs or any others in North America. Hence my musings over heuglini. If a heuglini were to show up here, maybe it would also have oddly worn feathers after that long flight, or be out of sync in molt.
>
> Amazing that you have up to 75 Lessers at Cape May in summer. What about other seasons?
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
>
>
>> On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, KEVIN karlson wrote:
>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>>
>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
>>
>>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis<000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>>
>>> Photos of these birds are athttp://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>>>
>>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>>>
>>> Bob Lewis
>>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>>
>>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>>> Archives:https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> Archives:https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 12:24 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Martin 
Nicely done! Two points that came up as I read this. First, Brian Sullivan's Monterey LBBG from this last winter we are feeling is thus far the best chance that we have a bonafide taymirensis in California. Not obvious in the first sightings (January), but much more so in the March sightings. See the photos below, March is the second link.
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
But to paraphrase Beyonc "I don't think we are ready for this jelly"

Second is what you allude to in molt timing of adults vs non adults. As you noted, we have been seeing that Lesser BB seems to molt later on average in North America vs Western Europe. This is in adults. But little attention has been paid to the youngsters. But it makes me think that first cycle molt timing may not necessarily mirror what the adults do. It is all about energy expense, and when you have enough energy resources to molt, and this shifts depending on other needs. Long migration is one of these needs, and it could be inferred that this is a factor in North America. Wherever these birds are breeding, is a long way from the wintering areas. This would have a similar effect on both adults and young as they are coming from the same place. However, we do not know if they are breeding in an area that is particularly energetically adverse, or not? Availability of food in the breeding area, timing of the breeding season, and various other details specifically relating to breeding would shift the molt of the adults, but not necessarily the young of the year. These are of course unknowns since we are not clear on where the North American birds come from, Greenland is the obvious place, but it is not a certainty yet. But your note did make me think that molt timing shifts may be different in adults vs young, depending on the dynamics of what is going on. Frankly, I had never thought about this before, so thanks Martin!
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Reid
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:40 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Gullers and all,
My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal wintering range during the summer are a really variable bunch in terms of molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of bird H significantly late? I dont think so - at least not compared to the other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:

Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from coverts; P5-P10 old.
Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond coverts; P7-P10 old.
Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.

Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.

Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id say that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so. Add into this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter in the Americas are now molting much later than their European counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the primary molt timing of bird H.

Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual? Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and the others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All the other birds have completed the replacement of the contour feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of replacing its body feathers - gaps are apparent in a number of places. Combined with the very poor condition of the unreplaced inner wing feathers, this suggests that this bird is in poor condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the middle of replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements can - depending on their combined locations - significantly change the structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the apparent structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan has expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I have invested some time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!


I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as refuting the notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that individuals of these taxa occur here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and south has decreased our chances of recognizing potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in California being from the donor population of the northeastern expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago when there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.

LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records of LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of European LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more likely that these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that period, LBBG-types have been found in far northern and western Alaska - surely those birds came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?

Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (http://gull-research.org/heugl...
Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly 2,000 miles before the end of September!
- it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through their migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south - who knows where such birds might get to?
FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types at Barrow in June 2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of southern Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly, with at least a several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding population at these locations was c.700 pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from Barrow. So which is more likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow in 2006: they are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles away (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?

From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but other than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are extremely cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their known range. To paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.

None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those not suffering from Lariphilia.
Cheers,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
> Cheers,
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson
>
>
>> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>>
>> Cheers, Norman
>>
>>
>> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>>
>>>>
>>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>>>
>>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>>>
>>>> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>>>>
>>>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>>>>
>>>> Bob Lewis
>>>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>>>
>>>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 11:59 am
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Greetings all, a couple of contributions here.

I do not believe that molt timing should be used
to infer breeding population of origin in first
and second cycle (and in some cases adult) gulls.
It seems to depend more on latitude of wintering
than on breeding location, even within species
and subspecies. Timing may relate to light-regime
effects at different latitudes on molt-initiation
trigger mechanisms but, in any case, it's
adaptive, as northern-wintering gulls need to
molt earlier and quicker to finish before winter,
while southern-wintering gulls can take their time.

Second, we now have three records of
heuglini/taimyrensis in the Hawaiian Islands,
including two first-cycle taimyrensis on Midway
this past winter with identification supported by
Nial Moores and others. One of these birds died,
so hopefully we'll learn more about it from its DNA.

Peter

At 09:40 AM 8/9/2017, Martin Reid wrote:
>Gullers and all,
>My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found
>in their normal wintering range during the
>summer are a really variable bunch in terms of
>molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary
>molt stage of bird H significantly late? I
>dont think so - at least not compared to the
>other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned
>the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:
>
>Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
>Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
>Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just
>emerging from coverts; P5-P10 old.
>Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6
>not yet visible beyond coverts; P7-P10 old.
>Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
>Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully
>grown; P5 not quite visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.
>
>Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.
>
>Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary
>replacement - but it is barely any different
>from bird D, and across this group of eight
>individuals it is merely the end-point of a
>fairly even range of molt stages. A larger
>sample might change its place in the range, but
>Id say that its primary molt stage is late
>but not significantly so. Add into this issue
>the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter
>in the Americas are now molting much later than
>their European counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
>In summary I see nothing exceptional for a
>New World LBBG in the primary molt timing of bird H.
>
>Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H
>significantly unusual? Again, I dont think
>so. There is a difference between bird H and
>the others regarding the stage of molt of the
>contour feathers. All the other birds have
>completed the replacement of the contour
>feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in
>the midst of replacing its body feathers - gaps
>are apparent in a number of places. Combined
>with the very poor condition of the unreplaced
>inner wing feathers, this suggests that this
>bird is in poor condition compared to the
>others. When a bird is in the middle of
>replacing its body feathers, the
>missing/still-growing elements can - depending
>on their combined locations - significantly
>change the structural appearance. This is often
>true on the head, where the missing/reduced
>feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which
>then exaggerates the bill size and length. If
>the belly area has missing reduced feathers this
>can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the
>apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July
>and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs
>with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
>In summary, I do not see anything significantly
>unusual about the apparent structure of bird H
>for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan
>has expressed the same view much more
>succinctly. Since I have invested some time in
>constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!
>
>
>I want to emphasize that none of the above
>should be taken as refuting the notion that
>heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do
>occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm
>believer that individuals of these taxa occur
>here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the
>Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of
>LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and
>south has decreased our chances of recognizing
>potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of
>IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less
>rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition
>the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in
>California being from the donor population of
>the northeastern expansion are much higher now
>compared to 30 or 40 years ago when there were
>so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.
>
>LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for
>many years. The first Americas nesting record
>for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving
>an individual mated with a Herring Gull near
>Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know just what
>type of LBBG that was! There have been a few
>records of LBBG-types in the west during the
>period when the range of European LBBG-types in
>the Americas was so limited that it was more
>likely that these west coast LBBG-types came
>from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the east
>(Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that
>period, LBBG-types have been found in far
>northern and western Alaska - surely those birds
>came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?
>
>Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few
>LBBG-types seen at Barrow. The nearest breeding
>taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
>Click here to see a map of six banding
>recoveries of taimyrensis:
>(http://gull-research.org/heugl...
>Looking at #6, by December it was at the
>southern tip of Sakhalin Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
>Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they
>had travelled roughly 2,000 miles before the end of September!
>- it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow
>part-way through their migration, and once
>there, they could penetrate farther south - who
>knows where such birds might get to?
>FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon
>Thompson of two LBBG-types at Barrow in June
>2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
>On the other hand, the latest data I can find
>about Atlantic-origin LBBG-types is that
>colonies are present on the western coast of
>southern Greenland, and that the population is
>increasing rapidly, with at least a several
>thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding
>population at these locations was c.700
>pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300
>miles from Barrow. So which is more likely
>explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow
>in 2006: they are from a large population as
>close as 1,600 miles away (taimyrensis), or they
>are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?
>
> From what I can make of the
> literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding
> identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the
> LBBG-type group, it is almost impossible based
> on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at
> certain times of the year are deemed IDable for
> some individuals, but other than those limited
> circumstances Old World gullers are extremely
> cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away
> from their known range. To paraphrase
> Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.
>
>None of the above is revelatory, but this might
>be helpful to those not suffering from Lariphilia.
>Cheers,
>Martin
>
>---
>Martin Reid
>San Antonio
>www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
> > On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro
> Jaramillo wrote:
> >
> > Kevin,
> > What you are noting is obvious, and gull
> fans will be on the same page as you in what
> you are saying about wear and molt etc. What
> Bob and Norman are saying is different, that
> the molt timing could in fact be a key to
> determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic
> Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser
> BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have
> no idea if that is the case, but you might not
> be understanding their point. Add that to some
> structural differences in this bird, and it
> does become intriguing. Again, obviously in
> LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known
> stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus
> leg length is out of the norm, or at least not
> classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again,
> interesting points. Don't know if I know enough
> to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's,
> but it is interesting to contemplate.
> > Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here
> on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that
> is different than that of West Coast
> smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also
> on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser
> BB type that may be on a different molt
> schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
> > Cheers,
> > Alvaro
> >
> > Alvaro Jaramillo
> > alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> > www.alvarosadventures.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field
> Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> >
> > Norman and all: I fully understand that each
> gull species has its' own molt timing, but the
> last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing
> coverts and many other feathers in the time
> that it should have according to that species'
> molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt",
> which means that feathers that should have been
> replaced by now were not. The result of a
> retarded molt like this is that it is well
> behind schedule, and appears excessively worn,
> tattered and overall a mess. This is not
> uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing
> gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and
> overall head shape, large gulls are not that
> hard with extreme individuals, while smaller
> gulls can be much harder, until you see them
> paired or copulating, and then you can see the
> physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn
> in their Gulls of the Americas frequently
> ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on
> these parameters, but they carefully say
> "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned
> below. I have studied many paired gulls over
> the last few years, and the physical
> differences between males and females remains
> consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and
> bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and
> sometimes longer legs, although the differences
> are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson
> >
> >
> >> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans
> van Swelm wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has
> it's own specific moult timing, there is
> nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that
> they are very worn. The question was if the
> state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's
> Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It
> is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of
> bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the
> time but my friends and I tested this on
> colringed individuals of known sex, the fault
> margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
> >>
> >> Cheers, Norman
> >>
> >>
> >> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> >>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds
> like this with retarded molt may appear
> extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the
> wing coverts) due to a lack of normal
> replacement of body and wing feathers from late
> winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time
> I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just
> north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed
> hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like
> yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and
> I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills
> like this, although the majority have smaller
> bills. I will send you a few birds like this in
> your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are
> replacing their critical flight feathers now,
> and have been for at least a month or so, with
> mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn,
> tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is
> what often causes ID confusion for many
> birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
> >>>
> >>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping
> up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called
> Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast
> visual collection of gull photos that are
> presented in order of age, with many digital
> collages of six views for a species in a
> singular calendar year so that birders who
> never try to identify gulls might have a chance
> with a book that shows most of the
> possibilities of each species as
> juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at
> various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM
> Robert Lewis
> <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Between July 22-27 i visited
> Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats
> at the east end of the island I encountered at
> least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> >>>>
> >>>> Photos of these birds are at
> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>
> http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> >>>>
> >>>> The last one, Bird H, has a
> very elongated head shape and very long legs.
> Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal,
> Holland, and North America, but never one like
> this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob Lewis
> >>>> Sleepy Hollow NY
> >>>>
> >>>> P.S. By contrast there were no
> more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> >>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 11:40 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Gullers and all,
My experience is that 2CY LWHGs that are found in their normal wintering range during the summer are a really variable bunch in terms of molt stage and wear. Firstly, is the primary molt stage of bird H significantly late? I dont think so - at least not compared to the other birds in the same region. Bob mentioned the P-molt for some of the birds, but here is the molt stage of all the birds:

Bird A: P1-P3 replaced; P4 c.2/3rds grown; P5 missing; P6-P10 old.
Bird B: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird C: P1-P6 replaced; P7 c.3/4ers grown; P8 missing; P9-P10 old.
Bird D: P1-P2 replaced; P3 almost grown; P4 just emerging from coverts; P5-P10 old.
Bird E: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.4/5ths grown; P6 not yet visible beyond coverts; P7-P10 old.
Bird F: P1-P4 replaced; P5 c.2/3rds grown; P6 missing; P7-P10 old.
Bird G: P1-P3 replaced; P4 virtually fully grown; P5 not quite visible beyond coverts; P6-P10 old.

Bird H: P1-P2 replaced; P3 c. half-grown; P4 missing; P5-P10 old.

Yes, bird H is the latest in terms of primary replacement - but it is barely any different from bird D, and across this group of eight individuals it is merely the end-point of a fairly even range of molt stages. A larger sample might change its place in the range, but Id say that its primary molt stage is late but not significantly so. Add into this issue the growing evidence that some LBBGs that winter in the Americas are now molting much later than their European counterparts - albeit that my view of this is based on adults.
In summary I see nothing exceptional for a New World LBBG in the primary molt timing of bird H.

Secondly, is the apparent structure of bird H significantly unusual? Again, I dont think so. There is a difference between bird H and the others regarding the stage of molt of the contour feathers. All the other birds have completed the replacement of the contour feathers, or have almost done so. Bird H is in the midst of replacing its body feathers - gaps are apparent in a number of places. Combined with the very poor condition of the unreplaced inner wing feathers, this suggests that this bird is in poor condition compared to the others. When a bird is in the middle of replacing its body feathers, the missing/still-growing elements can - depending on their combined locations - significantly change the structural appearance. This is often true on the head, where the missing/reduced feathers impart a lean, angular head shape which then exaggerates the bill size and length. If the belly area has missing reduced feathers this can make the bird look thin plus exaggerate the apparent length of the tibias. In Texas in July and August it is not uncommon to see 2CY LWHGs with this angular-headed, long-legged aspect.
In summary, I do not see anything significantly unusual about the apparent structure of bird H for a 2CY LBBG in July. UPDATE: I see that Jan has expressed the same view much more succinctly. Since I have invested some time in constructing this content, I am bloody well going to post it!


I want to emphasize that none of the above should be taken as refuting the notion that heuglini and taimyrensis LBBG-types could/do occur in the Americas. In fact, I am a firm believer that individuals of these taxa occur here, remaining unseen or undetectable. In the Americas the recent rapid growth and spread of LBBG-types from the northeast to the west and south has decreased our chances of recognizing potential heuglini/taimyrensis forms (or of IDing them), because as LBBG-types become less rare they receive less scrutiny. In addition the statistical odds of a LBBG-type in California being from the donor population of the northeastern expansion are much higher now compared to 30 or 40 years ago when there were so few LBBG-types in the northeast and even fewer to the south.

LBBG-types have been occurring in the west for many years. The first Americas nesting record for LBBG was in 1963 (I think) involving an individual mated with a Herring Gull near Juneau, Alaska; Id love to know just what type of LBBG that was! There have been a few records of LBBG-types in the west during the period when the range of European LBBG-types in the Americas was so limited that it was more likely that these west coast LBBG-types came from the west (Arctic Siberia) than the east (Greenland/Iceland/N.E. Europe). During that period, LBBG-types have been found in far northern and western Alaska - surely those birds came from somewhere in the Taimyr Peninsula region?

Consider Barrow, Alaska: There have been a few LBBG-types seen at Barrow. The nearest breeding taimyensis are c. 1,600 miles away; the nearest heuglini c. 2,000 miles away.
Click here to see a map of six banding recoveries of taimyrensis: (http://gull-research.org/heugl...
Looking at #6, by December it was at the southern tip of Sakhalin Island, c. 2,600 miles from the banding location.
Looking at #2 and #3 (from Bird Islands) they had travelled roughly 2,000 miles before the end of September!
- it is clear that taimyrensis can get to Barrow part-way through their migration, and once there, they could penetrate farther south - who knows where such birds might get to?
FYI on my web site I have photos by Simon Thompson of two LBBG-types at Barrow in June 2006 (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

On the other hand, the latest data I can find about Atlantic-origin LBBG-types is that colonies are present on the western coast of southern Greenland, and that the population is increasing rapidly, with at least a several thousand pairs currently. In 2003 the breeding population at these locations was c.700 pairs. The Greenland locations are c. 2,300 miles from Barrow. So which is more likely explanation for Simons LBBG-types in Barrow in 2006: they are from a large population as close as 1,600 miles away (taimyrensis), or they are from a small population as close as 2,300 miles away (graellsii-types)?

From what I can make of the literature/Conventional Wisdom regarding identifying heuglini or taimyrensis within the LBBG-type group, it is almost impossible based on current knowledge. Certain age-classes at certain times of the year are deemed IDable for some individuals, but other than those limited circumstances Old World gullers are extremely cautious about IDing any of the LBBG-types away from their known range. To paraphrase Beyonc: to ID it you should have put a ring on it.

None of the above is revelatory, but this might be helpful to those not suffering from Lariphilia.
Cheers,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Aug 8, 2017, at Aug 8, 5:50 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
> Cheers,
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson
>
>
>> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>>
>> Cheers, Norman
>>
>>
>> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>>
>>>>
>>> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>>> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>>>
>>> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>>>
>>>> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>>>>
>>>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>>>>
>>>> Bob Lewis
>>>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>>>
>>>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 9:24 am
From: birds.jorgensen AT blixtmail.se
 
Apparently my link did not work. Ill try the whole page instead and it is the first bird below"2cy LBBG July:unringed
http://www.gull-research.org/l...

Hope it works now...
JanJ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Wed Aug 9 2017 9:15 am
From: birds.jorgensen AT blixtmail.se
 
Hi all!

I think that bird H is a LBBG and an extremely worn and bleached one, which also, to a certain degree might explain the headshape. I also think that going in a heuglini/taimyrensis direction would not be a good option because we simply wouldnt be able to idenify one if they looked similar to bird H! So, LBBG is the better choice since it is the more expected ssp the occur in N.A
If this LBBG (http://www.gull-research.org/l... woild have shown the same wear and bleaching the moult score for Bobs bird would still be more or less in line with with a 2cy LBBG at the time given
Nice pic indeed btw!

Cheers

JanJ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 20:18 pm
From: giffbeaton AT mindspring.com
 
In Georgia, our largest numbers of LBBG are in the late summer and fall, from August to November, with high counts up to around 50. The rest of the year a birder in GA is lucky to see more than 2 or 3 in a day. Where they come from, and where they go, is as yet unknown. but likely from the NE. 

Giff Beaton
Palmetto GA
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 19:53 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Al, thanks for the clarification. My knowledge of gulls, while growing every day, is not in the league of some of the experts like yourself and others. I appreciate the sharing of information in a clear, concise fashion so that I can move closer to the next level of gull awareness. Kevin

> On August 8, 2017 at 6:50 PM Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
>
> Kevin,
> What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
> Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
> Cheers,
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
>
> Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson
>
>
> > On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
> >
> > Cheers, Norman
> >
> >
> > Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
> >
> > > >
> > > Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> > > Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
> > >
> > > Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
> > >
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> > > >
> > > > Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> > > >
> > > > The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> > > >
> > > > Bob Lewis
> > > > Sleepy Hollow NY
> > > >
> > > > P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> > > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 17:51 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Kevin, 
What you are noting is obvious, and gull fans will be on the same page as you in what you are saying about wear and molt etc. What Bob and Norman are saying is different, that the molt timing could in fact be a key to determining that this is perhaps NOT a classic Lesser Black-backed, but a Heuglin's (Lesser BB). It is an interesting hypothesis and I have no idea if that is the case, but you might not be understanding their point. Add that to some structural differences in this bird, and it does become intriguing. Again, obviously in LWHG males are larger and have bills. Known stuff. But they argue that bill structure plus leg length is out of the norm, or at least not classic for Western European Lesser BB. Again, interesting points. Don't know if I know enough to say given my poor experience with Heuglin's, but it is interesting to contemplate.
Similarly, on adult Vega candidates here on the West Coast, we look for molt timing that is different than that of West Coast smithsonianus, later to be exact. We are also on the lookout here in the West for any Lesser BB type that may be on a different molt schedule, in case we may be seeing taymirensis.
Cheers,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of KEVIN karlson
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:30 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson


> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>
> Cheers, Norman
>
>
> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>
> > >
> > Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> > Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
> >
> > Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
> >
> >
> > > > >
> > > On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> > >
> > > Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> > >
> > > The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> > >
> > > Bob Lewis
> > > Sleepy Hollow NY
> > >
> > > P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > >
> > > > >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
> >
> > >


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 17:32 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Norman and all: I fully understand that each gull species has its' own molt timing, but the last gull of Bob's has not replaced wing coverts and many other feathers in the time that it should have according to that species' molt timing. Thus my term "retarded molt", which means that feathers that should have been replaced by now were not. The result of a retarded molt like this is that it is well behind schedule, and appears excessively worn, tattered and overall a mess. This is not uncommon in large gulls. And as for sexing gulls by their size, bill length and bulk, and overall head shape, large gulls are not that hard with extreme individuals, while smaller gulls can be much harder, until you see them paired or copulating, and then you can see the physical differences. Steve Howell and Jon Dunn in their Gulls of the Americas frequently ascribe a sex to a particular gull based on these parameters, but they carefully say "probably" due to the reasons you mentioned below. I have studied many paired gulls over the last few years, and the physical differences between males and females remains consistent with larger size, bulkier heads and bodies, larger and usually longer bills, and sometimes longer legs, although the differences are easier to see in the larger gull species. Kevin Karlson


> On August 7, 2017 at 7:10 PM Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kevin, indeed but each species has it's own specific moult timing, there is nothing retarded to Bob's gulls other than that they are very worn. The question was if the state of moult of bird H could fit Heuglin's Gull and I showed it could well be possible. It is tempting to sex gulls on f.i. the size of bill or body etc. I admit I still do it all the time but my friends and I tested this on colringed individuals of known sex, the fault margin was to embarrasing to reveal!
>
> Cheers, Norman
>
>
> Op 7-8-2017 om 21:01 schreef KEVIN karlson:
>
> > >
> > Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> > Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
> >
> > Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
> >
> >
> > > > >
> > > On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> mailto:000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> > >
> > > Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir... http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> > >
> > > The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> > >
> > > Bob Lewis
> > > Sleepy Hollow NY
> > >
> > > P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > >
> > > > >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
> >
> > >


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 14:39 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Robert:


At Cape May and other places along the immediate coast in, at least, the mid-Atlantic region, LessBack is often among the the most-common gull species, often the most common. The primary caveat is that bold-faced, underlined "immediate coast" -- that is, within a few feet of the waterline, as these things are mostly hunting mole crabs. An excellent example of this phenomenon is one of Jim Stasz's checklists from a few years back. At Cape May, while LessBack occurs throughout the year, it is most common in summer, as, I believe, it is on the immediate Maryland coast.


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC

Thanks for your interest and comments.

My initial puzzlement at Bird H was not due to the state of molt, which is odd but not all that odd. I was struck by the the combination of long bill, sloping forehead, and long legs. It seems to be a more extreme case than any Ive seen in your photographs or any others in North America. Hence my musings over heuglini. If a heuglini were to show up here, maybe it would also have oddly worn feathers after that long flight, or be out of sync in molt.

Amazing that you have up to 75 Lessers at Cape May in summer. What about other seasons?

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY



> On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, KEVIN karlson wrote:



>
> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>
> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
>
> > On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> >
> > Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> >
> > The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> >
> > Bob Lewis
> > Sleepy Hollow NY
> >
> > P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Tue Aug 8 2017 13:53 pm
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Thanks for your interest and comments.

My initial puzzlement at Bird H was not due to the state of molt, which is odd but not all that odd. I was struck by the the combination of long bill, sloping forehead, and long legs. It seems to be a more extreme case than any Ive seen in your photographs or any others in North America. Hence my musings over heuglini. If a heuglini were to show up here, maybe it would also have oddly worn feathers after that long flight, or be out of sync in molt.

Amazing that you have up to 75 Lessers at Cape May in summer. What about other seasons?

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY



> On Aug 7, 2017, at 3:01 PM, KEVIN karlson wrote:



>
> Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
> Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.
>
> Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson
>
> > On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
> >
> > Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
> >
> > The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
> >
> > Bob Lewis
> > Sleepy Hollow NY
> >
> > P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Potential Manx Shearwater - Pacific Ocean off Darién, Panama
Date: Mon Aug 7 2017 15:50 pm
From: mangoverde AT gmail.com
 
On June 12th, I observed what I believe to be a Manx Shearwater on the
last day of four days of pelagic birding / fishing.

I have added a series of photos to an album at my Flickr site. The
album description has notes on the sighting including identification
points that I believe support Manx.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I would appreciate any comments for or against Manx. I believe this
would be the first record for Pacific coast of Panama.

I have also put together an album of most of the birds seen while on
the water during the trip. Feel free to take a look at those as well.
Galapagos Shearwater, Brown Booby and Wedge-rumped Storm-Petrel were
the most common birds offshore. Other birds observed were Black
Storm-Petrel, Pink-footed and Wedge-tailed Shearwater, Pomerine
Jaeger, South Polar Skua, Nazca Booby, Sooty and Bridled Tern, and
Red-billed Tropicbird. In particular, I tried to find an unusual
Storm-Petrel but seem to have struck out although the molting Black
Storm-Petrels were challenging.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Cheers,
Bill Hull
Cincinnati, OH, USA
http://www.mangoverde.com/ [Note: no longer actively maintained]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/m...
http://www.youtube.com/user/ma...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Mon Aug 7 2017 14:03 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Bob, odd yes, but occasional birds like this with retarded molt may appear extremely worn and bedraggled (especially the wing coverts) due to a lack of normal replacement of body and wing feathers from late winter onwards. I see up to 75 LBBGs every time I walk at Stone Harbor Point in summer, just north of Cape May NJ, and I have photographed hundreds of young LBBGs, including a few like yours. The very large bill suggests a male, and I have seen small numbers of LBBGs with bills like this, although the majority have smaller bills. I will send you a few birds like this in your personal e-mail box. The big gulls are replacing their critical flight feathers now, and have been for at least a month or so, with mixtures of fresh feathers and very worn, tattered ones visible. This messy plumage is what often causes ID confusion for many birders, but I know you have been a follower of gulls for many years.

Pete Dunne and I are just wrapping up a new book for Princeton Univ Press called Gulls Simplified, where we hope to share a vast visual collection of gull photos that are presented in order of age, with many digital collages of six views for a species in a singular calendar year so that birders who never try to identify gulls might have a chance with a book that shows most of the possibilities of each species as juvenile/immatures, sub-adults and adults at various times of the year. Kevin Karlson

> On August 3, 2017 at 10:22 PM Robert Lewis <000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> wrote:
>
>
> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>
> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>
> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Need Hawk ID- This Time WITH Link to Pics
Date: Sat Aug 5 2017 17:05 pm
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Hi Bates

This is a juvenile Red-shouldered Hawk.

Thanks

Brian

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bates Estabrooks wrote:

> I spotted this hawk this morning in the Cumberland Mts. of east
> Tennessee. I can't tell if it's an immature Broad-winged, or immature
> Red-shouldered. Suggestions? Something else?
>
>
> https://photos.google.com/shar...
> MYRi9Df-EnZMKR4lYyMgvohpcVVdzixHw?key=RHgzdWdaNERmVW9ZOW1uNWJsR0pscn
> ljMWpIVE5R
>
> [https://lh3.googleusercontent....
> JWO2wHebO3kfnyjr5Wffl2fDIfPlx6Hhew-YojFK0UZHM4g5ZMXtPHkygShVf1-
> 8Pi89MuG4M09ieapChXH8q7N0hYMih80msIp2tyq6xbc23_
> E0VNuV6d9OY5eZgXaw=w600-h315-p-k] com/share/AF1QipOP-7PI156IzT7C8Q7tOUQ93OL_Do-0-MYRi9Df-
> EnZMKR4lYyMgvohpcVVdzixHw?key=RHgzdWdaNERmVW9ZOW1uNWJsR0pscnljMWpIVE5R>
>
> Unknown Hawk 7PI156IzT7C8Q7tOUQ93OL_Do-0-MYRi9Df-EnZMKR4lYyMgvohpcVVdzixHw?key> RHgzdWdaNERmVW9ZOW1uNWJsR0pscnljMWpIVE5R>
> photos.google.com
> 3 new photos added to shared album
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Bates Estabrooks
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Need Hawk ID- This Time WITH Link to Pics
Date: Sat Aug 5 2017 16:53 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
I spotted this hawk this morning in the Cumberland Mts. of east Tennessee.  I can't tell if it's an immature Broad-winged, or immature Red-shouldered.  Suggestions?  Something else?


https://photos.google.com/shar...

[https://lh3.googleusercontent....

Unknown Hawk
photos.google.com
3 new photos added to shared album


Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Need Hawk ID
Date: Sat Aug 5 2017 16:29 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
I spotted this hawk this morning in the Cumberland Mts. of east Tennessee.  I can't tell if it's an immature Broad-winged, or immature Red-shouldered.  Suggestions?  Something else?



Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Fwd: Possible Plumbeous Vireo in Oregon
Date: Fri Aug 4 2017 22:24 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Oops -- forgot to hit 'Reply to All.'


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Leukering
To: LLSDIRONS
Sent: Fri, Aug 4, 2017 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: Possible Plumbeous Vireo in Oregon


Hey Dave:


The bird is an adult, discerned by the obvious flight-feather molt and, possibly, by the fact that it's singing. The Plumbeous Vireos that cause problems in differentiating that species from Cassin's are generally youngsters (at least, they are in Colorado), primarily because many have at least some green aspect to the flanks (some have substantial green in the flanks). In the picture where the tail is not backlit, the bird still shows a significant white outer web to the r6. Given how far along the bird is in its prebasic molt, I would think that much of the body plumage has been replaced, suggesting that the extensive grayness of the upperparts and lack of green in the flanks is not due to various wear/bleaching aspects. These features convince me that the bird is a Plumbeous -- I certainly wouldn't think twice about this bird if it were in Colorado.


I've been struck often by vireos singing in late summer/fall that are in obvious molt -- I assume that the flush of hormones involved with the molt also encourage such birds (males??) to sing. Certainly, few other passerines seem to sing as much while conducting the prebasic. Peter?


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: David Irons
To: npieplow ; Tony Leukering <000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>; Michael Hilchey ; Shawneen Finnegan
Sent: Fri, Aug 4, 2017 7:24 pm
Subject: Possible Plumbeous Vireo in Oregon



Greetings All,


A possible Plumbeous Vireo was photographed and recorded singing at Page Springs Campground today. Plumbeous Vireos have been reported in Oregon many times, but in my opinion has yet to be adequately documented yet in Oregon. Several reports have involved worn summer season Cassin's that did not show much if any color.


The photos of this bird are compelling, but the bill seems a tad small to my eye. There are good sound recordings included two of the eBird reports and they too seem compelling. It doesn't strike me as a Cassin's when I listen to it. I've only heard Plumbeous sing a few times.


Can you take a listen to these recordings and look at the sonograms and photos and offer an opinion? A link to the checklist is below.


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch... best sound recording


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch... sound and photo



Note that there are two photos (taken by Kellie Gesemundo) that were appended to an eBird checklist that has yet to be validated.


Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide. Shawneen and I are the statewide eBird Review coordinators for Oregon and we want to make sure this record is solid before validating it. One of the eBird Reviewers for Harney County has already validated three of the four reports of this bird. Perhaps a bit premature.


Dave Irons






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Fri Aug 4 2017 16:34 pm
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Thanks for kind words Norman.  Nice to hear from you.

So I suppose its too dark on the mantle for Caspian Gull?

BL


> On Aug 4, 2017, at 5:29 AM, Norman Deans van Swelm wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Fascinating stuff and great pictures,
>
> Moult of primaries may help to answer your question.
>
> Bird A to H have a primary score of less than 25,23,40,20,30,30,25, and 20 as taken from the old worn outer primaries respectively or when taken from the newly grown primaries (as far as visible) a primary score of 18.23,34,13,23,23,22,13.
>
> Bird H has a similar state of moult as bird D while all other birds are in a more advanced state of moult Via the links below you can find a 2nd cal.year heuglini caught in July in the breeding area in a comparable state of moult. Also some pictures taken in September and October in a more advanced stage of active moult while same aged Lesser Black-backs have finished moult by that time.
>
> It ain't easy but there is certainly a case to be made for Heuglin's Gull in America.
>
> All the best, Norman
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
> http://radioactiverobins.com/a...
>
>
>
>
>
> Op 4-8-2017 om 04:22 schreef Robert Lewis:
>> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>>
>> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>>
>> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>>
>> Bob Lewis
>> Sleepy Hollow NY
>>
>> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Fri Aug 4 2017 6:39 am
From: norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl
 
Hi Bob,

Fascinating stuff and great pictures,

Moult of primaries may help to answer your question.

Bird A to H have a primary score of less than 25,23,40,20,30,30,25, and
20 as taken from the old worn outer primaries respectively or when taken
from the newly grown primaries (as far as visible) a primary score of
18.23,34,13,23,23,22,13.

Bird H has a similar state of moult as bird D while all other birds are
in a more advanced state of moult Via the links below you can find a
2nd cal.year heuglini caught in July in the breeding area in a
comparable state of moult. Also some pictures taken in September and
October in a more advanced stage of active moult while same aged Lesser
Black-backs have finished moult by that time.

It ain't easy but there is certainly a case to be made for Heuglin's
Gull in America.

All the best, Norman



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...



http://radioactiverobins.com/a...





Op 4-8-2017 om 04:22 schreef Robert Lewis:
> Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina). On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).
>
> Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...
>
> The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
> P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Strange Lesser Black-backed at Sunset Beach NC
Date: Thu Aug 3 2017 21:23 pm
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Between July 22-27 i visited Sunset Beach NC (North Carolina).  On the flats at the east end of the island I encountered at least eight different Lesser Black-backeds, all in first summer plumage (2 cy).

Photos of these birds are at http://home.bway.net/lewis/bir...

The last one, Bird H, has a very elongated head shape and very long legs. Ive seen hundreds of Lessers in Portugal, Holland, and North America, but never one like this. It would seem to resemble heuglini. Any opinions?

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

P.S. By contrast there were no more than five Herring Gulls, a couple Great Black-backeds, a few Ring-billeds.
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Chickadee
Date: Sat Jul 29 2017 16:20 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Ding ding ding! I think Kevin offers the correct answer on this one. The bird is definitely a Mountain Chickadee and the discoloration appears in a pattern that suggests it was acquired from entering and exiting a nest cavity. Adults of cavity nesting species get pretty ragged looking this time of year.

This bird shows no outward evidence of Chestnut-backed Chickadee parentage.

Dave Irons
Beaverton, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 29, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Kevin J. McGowan wrote:
>
> Looks like it could be environmental staining on a Mountain Chickadee. Hole-dwelling birds seem to get this now and then. I don't know which trees are most likely to produce it.
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
> Kevin J. McGowan
> Ithaca, NY 14850
> kjm2@cornell.edu
>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Noah Arthur
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 2:58 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee
>
> Looks like an aberrant Mountain Chickadee. I see a prominent (albeit
> chestnut!) supercilium. The chestnut coloration on the underparts is also
> in the wrong place for a Chestnut-backed, being concentrated on the upper
> breast rather than the flanks.
>
> Cool bird!
>
> Noah
>
>
>> On Saturday, July 29, 2017, Bates Estabrooks wrote:
>>
>> Wow. Weird. Do you by chance have a recording of its song / call?
>>
>> Bates Estabrooks
>> Tennessee
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android
> [http://www.microsoft.com/en-us...
>
> Check out Outlook.com free, personal email from Microsoft.
> aka.ms
> Take your email anywhere you go when you add your free, personal, Outlook.com webmail to your Android, iPhone, or Windows mobile devices. Send and receive messages with mobile mail from Outlook.com
>
>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU > on behalf of Jeff Bleam <
>> 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU >
>> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 12:52:56 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee
>>
>> Found this Chickadee near Lake Tahoe at Lower Tahoe Meadows, Washoe Co.,
>> NV. Call was a familiar Chestnut-backed, chestnut
>>
>>
>> Jeff Bleam
>> Mt Rose, NV
>> byjcbphoto.com
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Chickadee
Date: Sat Jul 29 2017 15:48 pm
From: kjm2 AT cornell.edu
 
Looks like it could be environmental staining on a Mountain Chickadee. Hole-dwelling birds seem to get this now and then. I don't know which trees are most likely to produce it.


Kevin


Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY 14850
kjm2@cornell.edu

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Noah Arthur
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 2:58 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee

Looks like an aberrant Mountain Chickadee. I see a prominent (albeit
chestnut!) supercilium. The chestnut coloration on the underparts is also
in the wrong place for a Chestnut-backed, being concentrated on the upper
breast rather than the flanks.

Cool bird!

Noah


On Saturday, July 29, 2017, Bates Estabrooks wrote:

> Wow. Weird. Do you by chance have a recording of its song / call?
>
> Bates Estabrooks
> Tennessee
>
> Get Outlook for Android
[http://www.microsoft.com/en-us...

Check out Outlook.com free, personal email from Microsoft.
aka.ms
Take your email anywhere you go when you add your free, personal, Outlook.com webmail to your Android, iPhone, or Windows mobile devices. Send and receive messages with mobile mail from Outlook.com


>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU > on behalf of Jeff Bleam <
> 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU >
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 12:52:56 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee
>
> Found this Chickadee near Lake Tahoe at Lower Tahoe Meadows, Washoe Co.,
> NV. Call was a familiar Chestnut-backed, chestnut
>
>
> Jeff Bleam
> Mt Rose, NV
> byjcbphoto.com
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Chickadee
Date: Sat Jul 29 2017 13:59 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Looks like an aberrant Mountain Chickadee. I see a prominent (albeit
chestnut!) supercilium. The chestnut coloration on the underparts is also
in the wrong place for a Chestnut-backed, being concentrated on the upper
breast rather than the flanks.

Cool bird!

Noah


On Saturday, July 29, 2017, Bates Estabrooks wrote:

> Wow. Weird. Do you by chance have a recording of its song / call?
>
> Bates Estabrooks
> Tennessee
>
> Get Outlook for Android
>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU > on behalf of Jeff Bleam <
> 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU >
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 12:52:56 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee
>
> Found this Chickadee near Lake Tahoe at Lower Tahoe Meadows, Washoe Co.,
> NV. Call was a familiar Chestnut-backed, chestnut
>
>
> Jeff Bleam
> Mt Rose, NV
> byjcbphoto.com
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Chickadee
Date: Sat Jul 29 2017 12:48 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Wow. Weird. Do you by chance have a recording of its song / call?

Bates Estabrooks
Tennessee

Get Outlook for Android

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Jeff Bleam <000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 12:52:56 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Chickadee

Found this Chickadee near Lake Tahoe at Lower Tahoe Meadows, Washoe Co.,
NV. Call was a familiar Chestnut-backed, chestnut


Jeff Bleam
Mt Rose, NV
byjcbphoto.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Chickadee
Date: Sat Jul 29 2017 12:04 pm
From: 000000e6bb356018-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Found this Chickadee near Lake Tahoe at Lower Tahoe Meadows, Washoe Co.,
NV. Call was a familiar Chestnut-backed, chestnut


Jeff Bleam
Mt Rose, NV
byjcbphoto.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Possible Common Ringed-plover?
Date: Thu Jul 20 2017 8:03 am
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
Noah,



To me, the head shape, bill shapeand overall proportions fit Semipalmated. The stubby bill with the red restrictedto the basal third, the white frontal shield not really extending down underthe eye, narrow breast band and a narrow, but clearly yellow orbital ring allexclude Common Ringed Plover.



Some birds are clearly tough,and there is variation in many features such as upperpart color, judging breastband, obviousness of the white post-ocular super, etc .
The oft-cited difference in loral pattern (first described in Birding World byKillian Mullarney) is not shown on this bird and is useful when dealing withjuveniles and I dont believe theres a solid and consistent difference whendealing with adults, but I could be wrong.



To me, any adult or juvenile birdshowing a narrow yellow orbital ring would cause me to move on from consideringCommon Ringed. However, it is worth noting that adult Common Ringed often showa swollen and clearly yellow orbital ring during the early spring, presumably resultingfrom high hormone levels linked to breeding.

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:03 AM, Noah Arthur wrote:


Among thousands of Western Sandpipers and smaller numbers of other
shorebirds in Alameda, CA, on the 18th was this female-type plover. The
dark lores are broad and extend down to, and even slightly below, the gape
of the bill... This is an oft-cited field mark for Common Ringed-plover,
but I'm hesitant to make that call... What do you all think?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


Thanks!

Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA)
semirelicta@gmail.com
510-967-2179

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Possible Common Ringed-plover?
Date: Thu Jul 20 2017 5:08 am
From: pierre.defosdurau AT oncfs.gouv.fr
 
Dear all

Still from Europe, I would fully agree with the exotic feeling of your bird as written by Pierre-Andr Crochet. I would just complement his message with additional features that I tend to see on your bird and that do not stick with RingedP to my opinion: restricted dirty white supercilium and relatively thin regular black breast collar (not bulging on breast-sides).
regards

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de CROCHET Pierre Andre
Envoy: jeudi 20 juillet 2017 11:34
: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Objet: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Common Ringed-plover?

Dear Noah,

From a European perspective, this bird has a distinct exotic feeling and several characters I associate with Semipalmated, including the bill shape with short stubby tip and slightly upturned look, bill coloration with deep orange area restricted to the lower bill base, head shape with vertical forehead, and body shape with elongated read body. The head pattern seems also typical of Semipalmated (lots of dark and deep eye patch).

I might want to see the palmation or hear it call to claim it in Europe of course :). But I would clearly not claim it as Ringed in North America.

Hope this helps

Pierre

Pierre-Andr Crochet
CNRS-UMR5175 CEFE
Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
Tel: +33467 61 32 98
Fax: +33467 61 33 36
Mobile: +33607 32 60 75

-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de Noah Arthur
Envoy: jeudi 20 juillet 2017 10:03
: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Objet: [BIRDWG01] Possible Common Ringed-plover?

Among thousands of Western Sandpipers and smaller numbers of other
shorebirds in Alameda, CA, on the 18th was this female-type plover. The
dark lores are broad and extend down to, and even slightly below, the gape
of the bill... This is an oft-cited field mark for Common Ringed-plover,
but I'm hesitant to make that call... What do you all think?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


Thanks!

Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA)
semirelicta@gmail.com
510-967-2179

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


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