ABA's Birding News >> ID Frontiers

ID Frontiers bird news by date

Updated on May 28, 2016, 12:35 pm

Want to easily find posts that mention ABA rare birds? Choose a code below:

ABA Code 2 Birds  |  ABA Code 3 Birds  |  ABA Code 4 Birds  |  ABA Code 5 Birds


28 May: @ 12:33:20 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Jason Rogers]
28 May: @ 04:46:15 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [David Sibley]
28 May: @ 01:57:22 Re: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Tim Janzen]
27 May: @ 23:55:23  Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers [Ken R. Schneider]
23 May: @ 20:32:22 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady]
23 May: @ 18:36:40 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 16:59:43 Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 14:48:54 Re: Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Joseph Morlan]
23 May: @ 11:34:17 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 11:19:07  Fwd: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 11:13:25 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Brian Sullivan]
23 May: @ 11:02:16 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Alvaro Jaramillo]
23 May: @ 10:33:17 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Peter Pyle]
23 May: @ 10:25:14 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [karlson3]
22 May: @ 23:31:33 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [David Irons]
22 May: @ 23:27:14 Re: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Tony Leukering]
22 May: @ 22:34:10  Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin [Ryan Brady]
20 May: @ 05:01:27 Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Mary Beth Stowe]
19 May: @ 13:38:33 Re: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Andrew Spencer]
19 May: @ 10:56:27  RFI - Yellowthroat ID [DPratt14]
18 May: @ 12:27:37  Fwd: RFI - Yellowthroat ID [Andrew Spencer]
17 May: @ 11:00:28 Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [Martin Reid]
17 May: @ 09:31:54 Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [Martin Reid]
16 May: @ 20:42:18 Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [julian hough]
16 May: @ 19:22:29 Re: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [julian hough]
16 May: @ 18:24:54  very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage? [JR Rigby]
16 May: @ 05:28:45  A request for images of atricapillus Northern Goshawk [The HH75]
12 May: @ 23:52:34 Re: Within Range for NA Mew Gull? [Robert O'Brien]
12 May: @ 18:37:35  Within Range for NA Mew Gull? [Matthew G Hunter]
06 May: @ 12:26:06  RFI- Samuel Patten's Dissertation [Amar Ayyash]
06 May: @ 10:50:06 Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Alvaro Jaramillo]
06 May: @ 09:49:31 Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Karen Fung]
06 May: @ 09:16:35 Re: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Alvaro Jaramillo]
06 May: @ 06:33:24  NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery [Karen Fung]
04 May: @ 05:27:45  Tanager ID [Russ Ruffing]
02 May: @ 18:54:48 Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song [David Irons]
02 May: @ 18:11:02 Re: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song [karlson3]
01 May: @ 22:44:37  NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song [Karen Fung]
26 Apr: @ 14:13:09 Re: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification [Steve Hampton]
26 Apr: @ 13:16:00  Song Sparrow Subspecies identification [Dan A]
25 Apr: @ 17:25:31 Re: hawk question [Steve Hampton]
25 Apr: @ 13:15:49 Re: hawk question [Brian Sullivan]
25 Apr: @ 11:45:26  hawk question [Steve Hampton]





Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 12:33 pm
From: hawkowl AT hotmail.com
 
Hi Ken,

Without hesitation, I would call this a Dusky. I hear many Hammond's and Dusky in Alberta, where I live. And over the past few weeks, I've been in southern British Columbia, where I've also been getting a number of Grays. From where I was standing the other day, I had all three species going at the same time, which was fun!

Jason Rogers
Calgary


> Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 04:55:00 +0000
> From: kschnei1 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them.
>
>
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
>
>
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.
>
>
> What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> San Francisco, CA
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 4:46 am
From: sibleyguides AT gmail.com
 
Hi Ken,

This is definitely a Dusky Flycatcher, the clear rising phrase is
diagnostic, first heard (and visible in the spectrogram) at 18 seconds in
your recording. All individuals should be identifiable by song, and Arch
McCallum has put together an excellent guide to western Empid sounds here:

http://www.appliedbioacoustics...

Best,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Ken R. Schneider
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
> mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can
> sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and
> I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
> two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
> with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
> species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
> trouble distinguishing them.
>
>
> I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568
>
>
> I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
> "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
> but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.
>
>
> What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing
> empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
> letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
> them?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> San Francisco, CA
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Sat May 28 2016 1:57 am
From: tjanzen AT comcast.net
 
Dear Ken,
http://www.xeno-canto.org/3160... and http://www.xeno-canto.org/3160... are
fairly similar to what I generally hear in Oregon for Hammond's Flycatchers.
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1616... sounds fairly typical for what I hear for
Dusky Flycatchers in Oregon. I think that your bird sounds more typical of
a Dusky Flycatcher. To my ear, the first note in the song of Hammond's
Flycatcher has a more striking burry quality to it than the first note in
the song of Dusky Flycatcher. That is one of the ways that I separate these
two species.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ken R. Schneider
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 9:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers

Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the
mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can
sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I
often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the
two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work
with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two
species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have
trouble distinguishing them.


I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable
"first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes,
but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.


What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing
empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be
letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see
them?


Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Singing Dusky versus Hammond's Flycatchers
Date: Fri May 27 2016 23:55 pm
From: kschnei1 AT hotmail.com
 
Hi all,


With some frequency, I encounter singing Empidonax flycatchers in the mountains of California that are either Dusky or Hammond's. It can sometimes be nearly impossible to track them down and get visual clues and I often don't hear the diagnostic (?) one-syllable call notes or the two-syllable du-hic call of Dusky, so I'm left with only the song to work with... Despite the excellent tips on separating the songs of the two species in Kenn Kaufman's recent field guide (page 372), I still have trouble distinguishing them.


I recorded the following bird recently in a patch of coniferous forest:


http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29907568


I thought it was probably a Hammond's Flycatcher based on the two-syllable "first element" and the overall raspy quality without clear whistled notes, but an experienced local birder suggested it might be Dusky instead.


What do folks think of this bird? In general, are most of these singing empids identifiable to species based on the song alone or should I be letting them go at Dusky/Hammond's unless I hear other vocalizations or see them?


Thanks!


Ken Schneider

San Francisco, CA


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 20:32 pm
From: ryanbrady10 AT hotmail.com
 
Many thanks to all for the input and continued discussion. It is extremely appreciated and informative.

Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
http://www.pbase.com/rbrady

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Alvaro Jaramillo
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 4:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Hello,
Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I could not see it.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao@coastside.net]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian,
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 18:36 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Hello, 
Not sure if this went out earlier today. My apologies if it did go out. I could not see it.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Jaramillo [mailto:chucao@coastside.net]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM
To: 'Brian Sullivan' ; 'BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Brian,
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader * www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 16:59 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Joe and all -

We had the same word-of-mouth information about this Farallon
specimen (Ned Johnson also concurred with obscurus) but I could not
locate it during thorough searches of the CAS, MVZ, and PRBO
collections during the late 1980s sometime. It had evidently been
sent around and at some point was never returned. I am still hopeful
that it will turn up again, but for now there is no opportunity to
examine or sample it.

Re the Wisconsin bird, as I mentioned earlier, the molt pattern and
extent of wear on the juvenile p1-p3 and s1-s4, the formative p4-p10,
s5-s7, and rectrices, and (especially) the first-alternate s8 (on
both wings) is consistent with northern-breeding occidentalis at this
time of year. This quite contrasts with the two late-June Tropical
Kingbirds from last year, which included an adult finishing molt
(Minnesota) and a first-cycle bird that still retained juvenile outer
primaries (Ontario), more consistent with molt timing and wear from
Austral populations.

Peter

At 12:48 PM 5/23/2016, Joseph Morlan wrote:
>Peter,
>
>My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
>1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
>ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
>race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.
>
>Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
>of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....
>
>http://digitallibrary.amnh.org...
>
>The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
>it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
>be a genuine vagrant. It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
>Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
>molecular testing might shed further light on the record.
>
>I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
>attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America. Some are listed
>by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes." They should probably be
>reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...
>
>https://sora.unm.edu/node/1133...
>
>
>On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle wrote:
>
> >Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
> >Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
> >My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
> >patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
> >>To: "R.D. Everhart"
> >>From: Peter Pyle
> >>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >>
> >>Hi Roger and all -
> >>
> >>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
> >>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
> >>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
> >>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
> >>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
> >>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
> >>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
> >>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
> >>show up as well.
> >>
> >>Peter
> >>
> >>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
> >>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
> >>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
> >>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
> >>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
> >>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
> >>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
> >>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
> >>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
> >>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
> >>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
> >>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
> >>
> >>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
> >>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
> >>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
> >>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
> >>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
> >>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
> >>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
> >>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
> >>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
> >>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
> >>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
> >>
> >>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
> >>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
> >>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
> >>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
> >>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
> >>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
> >>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
> >>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
> >>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
> >>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
> >>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
> >>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
> >>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
> >>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
> >>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
> >>
> >>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
> >>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
> >>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
> >>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
> >>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
> >>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
> >>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
> >>of molt timing and age.
> >>
> >>
> >>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
> >>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
> >>>posted them at
> >>>
> >>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
> >>>
> >>>Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>>Roger Everhart
> >>>Apple Valley, MN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---- Original Message ----
> >>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
> >>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
> >>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
> >>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
> >>>
> >>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
> >>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
> >>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
> >>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
> >>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
> >>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
> >>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
> >>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
> >>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
> >>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
> >>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
> >>> >
> >>> >Peter
> >>> >
> >>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
> >>> >>Hey everyone-
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
> >>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
> >>> >>photos that I have posted here:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
> >>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Roger Everhart
> >>> >>Apple Valley, MN
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>--
>Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 14:48 pm
From: jmorlan AT gmail.com
 
Peter,

My recollection is that the Farallon Tropical Kingbird specimen from August
1973 (PRBO #713) was identified by Wesley Lanyon as M. m. obscurus which
ranges from western and central Peru north to Ecuador and SW Columbia. This
race is now synonymized by most authors with nominate melancholicus.

Information on obscurus is hard to come by, but Zimmer's 1937 description
of obscurus along with comparison of other races is at....

http://digitallibrary.amnh.org...

The BNA account mentions that Steve Cardiff examined the specimen and felt
it was an escaped cage-bird, but most other sources have considered it to
be a genuine vagrant. It might be interesting to reexamine the specimen.
Also I believe there is now a reasonably good DNA baseline available so
molecular testing might shed further light on the record.

I believe a couple of other specimens from Eastern North America have been
attributed to M. m. satrapa from Mexico/Central America. Some are listed
by Mlodinov in a 1998 article in "Field Notes." They should probably be
reviewed again. Mlodinov's summary is at...

https://sora.unm.edu/node/1133...


On Mon, 23 May 2016 09:18:49 -0700, Peter Pyle wrote:

>Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
>Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
>My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
>patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.
>
>Peter
>
>>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>>To: "R.D. Everhart"
>>From: Peter Pyle
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>>
>>Hi Roger and all -
>>
>>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
>>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
>>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
>>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
>>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
>>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
>>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
>>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
>>show up as well.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
>>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
>>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
>>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
>>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
>>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
>>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
>>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
>>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
>>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
>>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
>>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>>
>>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
>>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
>>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
>>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
>>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
>>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
>>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
>>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
>>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
>>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
>>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>>
>>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
>>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
>>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
>>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
>>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
>>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
>>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
>>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
>>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
>>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
>>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
>>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
>>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>>
>>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
>>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
>>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
>>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
>>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
>>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
>>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
>>of molt timing and age.
>>
>>
>>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>>posted them at
>>>
>>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
>>>
>>>Hope this helps.
>>>
>>>Roger Everhart
>>>Apple Valley, MN
>>>
>>>
>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
>>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
>>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>>
>>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>>> >
>>> >Peter
>>> >
>>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>> >>Hey everyone-
>>> >>
>>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>>> >>
>>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>>> >>
>>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>>> >>
>>> >>Roger Everhart
>>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>> >
>>>
>>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:34 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Brian, 
Interesting! One issue that may be a problem is that the subspecific delineation might not fall clearly along the line of migrant vs resident forms. Whether the break is migrant vs resident or South American vs north of Panama is an open question. I think vocal work or genetics would have to be incorporated. There are vocal differences between South America Tropical and those from farther north, not huge, but they exist. See below.
Something similar will be published soon regarding Vermilion Flycatchers, a paper I am involved in, Austral migrants being one of the elements involved. Again, I do wonder if some vagrant Vermilion Flycatchers are actually South American Austral migrants.

TROPICAL KINGBIRD DAWN SONGS:
Dawn song Nicaragua
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1107...

Dawn song Costa Rica
http://www.xeno-canto.org/1376...

Dawn song Ecuador
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2609...

Dawn song Brazil
http://www.xeno-canto.org/2474...


Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:13 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in
> fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long
> distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what
> one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern
> Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have
> been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley
> where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in
> fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in
> question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As
> Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where
> the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to
> verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as
> well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill
> size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one
> of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male
> Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive
> head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals
> in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some
> birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size
> and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not
> show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird,
> and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a
> noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length
> and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out,
> Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises
> to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from
> front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better
> words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due
> to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's.
> Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the
> bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite
> photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these
> differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Co
> uch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed
> birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite
> to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in
> this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't
> show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is
> also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square
> tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile
> heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this
> bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually
> requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for
> comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from
> Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave
> speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+King
> bird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline
> in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen
> for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very
> difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin
> has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported
> as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at
> species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
===========


*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:19 am
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Some discussion we had last summer (below) on where spring-summer
Tropical Kingbirds north of the range in North America may originate.
My first take on the Wisconsin bird is that it fits molt and wear
patterns for northern populations but I'll take another look later today.

Peter

>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:25:08 -0700
>To: "R.D. Everhart"
>From: Peter Pyle
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
>Hi Roger and all -
>
>David Sibley also forwarded an open-wing shot of the kingbird taken
>by Annabelle Watts. My response below applies as well to your photos
>just posted (where you can see all primaries replaced but the
>secondaries still old, but not looking old enough for juvenile
>feathers), although the outer primary tip is not visible. We both
>think that summer records of Tropical Kingbirds in eastern North
>America may most likely be of nominate Austral migrants, and this
>would seem to indicate the potential for White-throated Kingbird to
>show up as well.
>
>Peter
>
>The flight shot by Annabelle Watts is quite useful in that it
>indicates it to be an adult female. Had it been a first-year bird
>undergoing the preformative molt we would expect it to have an
>eccentric pattern (retaining inner primaries and beginning molt at
>p4-p7) instead of showing all inner primaries replaced. (It seems
>close to all kingbird individuals undergo eccentric preformative
>molts, except in Eastern Kingbird where all primaries are usually
>replaced.) Also the outer primaries and secondaries on the
>Minnesota bird do not look like juvenile feathers to me, with enough
>of a notch to p10 to indicate a formative or basic feather in a
>female. I had suspected this based on what I could see in Roger
>Evehart's photo but I was not sure enough.
>
>The time frame for completing the prebasic molt in occidentalis
>would be Nov according the ID Guide, but it would not surprise me if
>these molts regularly extend into winter or early spring. We're
>finding that birds undergoing flight-feather molt on Neotropical
>winter grounds tend to protract it more than is published, due to
>lack of food and other constraints, only needing to complete it
>before spring migration. Thus, I'd expect occidentalis could easily
>be completing a prebasic molt in Nov-Jan or later. As such, the molt
>timing of the Minnesota bird is six months off cycle and would
>indicate an Austral migrant. I don't see the prebasic molt being
>anywhere close to this stage in late June, in any Boreal-cycle kingbird.
>
>The outer rectrices of the Ontario kingbird
>http://tinyurl.com/pr5dmod
>look like juvenile feathers by shape, but do not show the extreme
>wear that juvenile feathers would show if it was a year-old
>occidentalis. Plus, the juvenile rectrices are often replaced during
>the preformative molt (although the ID Guide splits the
>flight-feather molt into preformative and first prealternate, I
>would tend now to call it all part of a protracted preformative molt
>overlapping first-prealternate body feather molt). The outer
>primary, from what I can see of it, looks brownish and pointed like
>a juvenile feather and it almost looks like p9 might be missing and
>p8 growing, but this is just a speculative hunch. Too bad there are
>not more photos. But if my hunches are correct it would indicate the
>bird may have been completing the preformative molt, again about six
>months off what would be expected of occidentalis.
>
>I don't know how this might equate to molt and migration in nominate
>Tropical Kingbird or White-throated Kingbird, but it seems
>reasonable that they could show molt patterns similar to Boreal
>conspecific/congeners but six months off cycle. I'll be interested
>in further thoughts and documentation on these or any other vagrant
>summer Tropical Kingbirds. The Farallon specimen has unfortunately
>been misplaced, but I still hope it turns up somewhere for analysis
>of molt timing and age.
>
>
>At 08:37 AM 7/3/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>>Based on Peter's comments I went back and found a couple of photos of
>>the Minnesota Kingbird that may (or may not) help the discussion. I
>>posted them at
>>
>>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>Roger Everhart
>>Apple Valley, MN
>>
>>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: ppyle@birdpop.org
>>To: everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM, wormington@JUNO.COM
>>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Minnesota Tropical Kingbird
>>Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:57:07 -0700
>>
>> >I'm not certain of this, but it seems both the Minnesota and the
>> >Ontario kingbirds may be on molt cycles reflecting an Austral rather
>> >than a Boreal breeding and migrating populations. The Minnesota bird
>> >is completing a molt and I thought that the Ontario bird may still
>> >have juvenile outer rectrices and outer primary (but not worn enough
>> >to be a year old). Better photos of each, with open wings and tails,
>> >would help determine molt progression and age. For northern Tropical
>> >Kingbirds (occidentalis) we would expect to see molt patterns like
>> >this in Nov-Dec on the winter grounds (both preformative and
>> >prebasic) and not June. Something to consider when encountering and
>> >documenting summer kingbirds in North America.
>> >
>> >Peter
>> >
>> >At 10:59 AM 7/2/2015, R.D. Everhart wrote:
>> >>Hey everyone-
>> >>
>> >> I went out to chase the Tropical Kingbird that has been seen at
>> >>Murphy-Hanrahan Park south of Minneapolis/St. Paul and got a few
>> >>photos that I have posted here:
>> >>
>> >>http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> The bird was seen off and on between about 7 am and 9:30 am. It
>> >>did not vocalize while I was there.
>> >>
>> >>Roger Everhart
>> >>Apple Valley, MN
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>> >
>>
>>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:13 am
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Al et al.,

I've wondered the same thing, even about some of the fall birds in CA. I've
posted these before, but this individual had me thinking pretty hard about
some of the Austral forms. No conclusion though:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S15300880

Brian

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> All,
> Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact
> the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance
> migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it.
> Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North
> America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what one
> characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
> Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird
> concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been
> studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they
> occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using
> their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing
> the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall
> into a middle ground category where the physical features are not
> definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID
> some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of
> individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head
> shape in a relaxed mood.
>
> In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of
> the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals
> are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes,
> but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not
> show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each
> pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long,
> heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have
> only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows
> a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not
> approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave
> pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown
> that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth
> from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is
> usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to
> describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher
> crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is
> typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is
> agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two
> calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at
> left: Tropical at right.
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html
> .
>
> The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds
> that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show
> how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if
> you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but
> square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating
> some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short,
> thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I
> would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a
> first state record usually requires some more concrete information for
> acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed
> Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme
> Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow
> forecrown and deep head profile:
> http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html
>
> Kevin Karlson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ryan Brady"
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in
> Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only
> a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did
> manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has
> only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a
> Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species
> level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 11:02 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
All, 
Is there any evidence that some of these vagrant Tropicals are in fact the Austral migrants from Southern South America? They are long distance migrants, perhaps not as much as Fork-tailed Flycatchers but close to it. Therefore it is logical to think that some of them make it to North America. Maybe? Some of these birds are smaller billed to me than what one characteristically sees in Mexico-Central America.
Photos here. http://www.wikiaves.com.br/753...

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 8:25 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood.

In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at left: Tropical at right. http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html.

The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 10:33 am
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I concur with first-spring TRKI (nice eccentric pattern) and would
add that it appears to be a female by the shape of the formative
outer primary.

Peter

At 09:26 PM 5/22/2016, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Hey Ryan:
>
>First off, your bird seems to be a second-calendar-year beast, if I
>read Pyle (1997) correctly, due to the obvious molt limit in the ss.
>
>Wing formula is useful in this differentiation, so it's unfortunate
>that the open-wing shots aren't the best. However, in pic 8383, the
>right wing seems to be shown well enough for me to take a stab at
>it. While it's difficult to be certain where the tip of p10 is,
>precisely, p5 seems obviously not much shorter than p6. The same
>p5-p6 relationship seems to be shown by pic 8353. That should argue
>strongly that the bird is a Tropical.
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Cut Bank, MT
>www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering
>http://cowyebird.blogspot.com
>
> > On May 22, 2016, at 21:23, Ryan Brady wrote:
> >
> > We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior
> shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized
> and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware
> it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
> >
> >
> > http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
> >
> >
> > Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals?
> Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was
> initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos)
> and none for either at species level.
> >
> > Thanks for any input you can provide.
> >
> >
> > Ryan Brady
> > Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Mon May 23 2016 10:25 am
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Ryan and all: Dave Irons did a good job with his comments on this bird concerning differences in some Tropical and Couch's Kingbirds. I have been studying these two species critically in the Rio Grande Valley where they occur together for much of the year for over 15 years in fall, and using their calls to confirm the ID of the birds in question, and then assessing the physical profile of each bird. As Dave pointed out, some birds fall into a middle ground category where the physical features are not definitive, and where call is needed to verify the ID. I can usually ID some of these in between birds as well, however, after studying hundreds of individuals using their bill size/length/shape proportions and their head shape in a relaxed mood. 

In my opinion, this is definitely a Tropical Kingbird that is not one of the in between birds. I suspected prior to this year that male Tropicals are probably the ones with smaller bills and less definitive head shapes, but recent study that I did of mated pairs of Tropicals in Honduras did not show the obvious differences that occur in some birds, but one bird in each pair had slight differences in bill size and head shape. The very long, heavy bill of this bird that does not show a deeper base is one that I have only seen in Tropical Kingbird, and never in Couch's. Couch's usually shows a shorter bill that has a noticeable thicker base, and whose bill does not approach the length and overall massive nature of this bird's bill. As Dave pointed out, Couch's typically in a relaxed mood shows a steep forecrown that rises to a more dome shaped head, which is usually shallower in depth from front to back compared to most Tropicals. Tropical's head shape is usually "squarer or more rectangular" in shape, for lack of better words to describe a head that does not have a rounded appearance due to the higher crown and shallower depth of head like Couch's. Tropical's crown is typically somewhat flat across the top, like the bird shown, unless it is agitated. I provided a link to a composite photo I put together from two calling birds that shows these differences in the two birds: Couch's at left: Tropical at right. http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Figure+152+-+Couch_s+Kingbird+and+Tropical+Kingbird_+new+Sept+2013.jpg.html.

The Tropical in this composite photo is not one of the large-billed birds that I often encounter, which is why I used it in this composite to show how subtle the differences can be, but they are obvious in this photo if you critically compare them. Many Couch's also don't show forked tails, but square-tipped ones (males?), so this feature is also helpful in eliminating some Couch's, but these birds with square tails usually have very short, thick based bills and high profile heads like the bird in my composite. I would not hesitate calling this bird a Tropical Kingbird, but I know a first state record usually requires some more concrete information for acceptance. Just for comparison sake, I included a link to a long-billed Tropical from Costa Rica that is more representative of the extreme Tropical's Dave speaks of, with a very long, even width bill, shallow forecrown and deep head profile: http://kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Flycatchers/Tropical+Kingbird_+March_+Costa+Rica.jpg.html

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan Brady"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 11:23:52 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin

We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 23:31 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Ryan,

In my opinion, many of the profile shots of this bird's bill are strongly suggestive, if not diagnostic for Tropical Kingbird. There are certainly birds that are tweeners in terms of apparent bill length and shape, but this does not fall into that category. In particular, photos 8453, 8455, 8456, 8457 and 8481 capture what I would characterize as the classic Tropical Kingbird bill shape and length. To my eye, Tropicals generally show noticeably longer bills than Couch's and the base to tip taper is not as apparent. Couch's have a shorter bill that usually looks proportionally thick at the base (probably due to shorter overall length) and is more steeply tapered from base to tip.

There are some other features that I think also support this being a Tropical Kingbird. I find that Couch's Kingbirds often appear to have a more peaked crown profile and are perhaps darker gray on the head with a slightly stronger blackish mask through the eye. This bird seems to have a flatter crown profile and is paler gray on the head and has a less conspicuous mask than I would expect to see on a Couch's. The tail also looks strongly notched. According to some sources, Tropicals have a more deeply notched tail than Couch's.

For the past five years I've spent 7-9 days each November in the Lower Rio Grande Valley, where both species can be readily found. I've taken hundreds of photos and spent many hours studying both species, typically confirming identifications with vocalizations. Some of the other regular leaders at the Rio Grande Valley Birding Festival have similarly studied these two kingbirds. Several agree that there are some noticeable structural differences, particularly as they relate to bill length and shape, that can be used to separate many individuals of these two species with virtual certainty. I also see Tropical Kingbirds most years here in Oregon, where they appear annually during late fall. There are no Oregon records for Couch's. The fall birds we get typically show a bill shape and length that is near identical to this bird.

Here is link to some specimen photos taken at Cornell. The profile shot showing the comparative bill length and shape illustrates what I was describing about the bill profile of Tropical compared to Couch's.
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/c...

Dave Irons


> Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 03:23:52 +0000
> From: ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 23:27 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hey Ryan:

First off, your bird seems to be a second-calendar-year beast, if I read Pyle (1997) correctly, due to the obvious molt limit in the ss.

Wing formula is useful in this differentiation, so it's unfortunate that the open-wing shots aren't the best. However, in pic 8383, the right wing seems to be shown well enough for me to take a stab at it. While it's difficult to be certain where the tip of p10 is, precisely, p5 seems obviously not much shorter than p6. The same p5-p6 relationship seems to be shown by pic 8353. That should argue strongly that the bird is a Tropical.

Tony

Tony Leukering
currently Cut Bank, MT
www.aba.org/photoquiz/
www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com

> On May 22, 2016, at 21:23, Ryan Brady wrote:
>
> We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles.
>
>
> http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...
>
>
> Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.
>
> Thanks for any input you can provide.
>
>
> Ryan Brady
> Washburn, Bayfield County, WI
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tropical/Couch's Kingbird ID - Northern Wisconsin
Date: Sun May 22 2016 22:34 pm
From: ryanbrady10 AT hotmail.com
 
We found a Tropical/Couch's Kingbird along the Lake Superior shoreline in Washburn, Wisconsin, on Thursday. It never vocalized and was seen for only a short time on one day. Though we're aware it's a very difficult ID I did manage a bunch of images from various angles. 


http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/ki...


Is there even a chance of separating the two without vocals? Wisconsin has only one accepted Tropical/Couch's (which was initially reported as a Western and had few accompanying photos) and none for either at species level.

Thanks for any input you can provide.


Ryan Brady
Washburn, Bayfield County, WI


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
Date: Fri May 20 2016 5:01 am
From: mbstowe AT miriameaglemon.com
 
Hi, all!

FWIW, that excellent call note recording sounds NOTHING like any Common Yellowthroat I've ever heard, so unless there's a real difference in local COYE dialects, I would feel comfortable with Andrew's call (no pun intended) on that alone!

Mary Beth Stowe
Alamo, TX
www.miriameaglemon.com



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Spencer
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 1:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] RFI - Yellowthroat ID

I think what is happening is that the person questioning the ID (the ebird
reviewer) saw that the book says Bahama Yellowthroat is supposed to have a yellow belly, and that they are used to some of the other subspecies that DO have a yellow belly, so they assumed that this must be a Common Yellowthroat because it does NOT have a yellow belly. But as you say, I believe the preponderance of the evidence points towards Bahama Yellowthroat.

Hopefully I can get some more pictures of the species from the other islands I'll be visiting for comparison.


Andrew

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM, DPratt14 wrote:

> Hello birders:
>
>
> What's the problem here? It would be far more questionable to have a
> territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat. This bird
> looks just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,
> I photographed in the same general locality some years ago. Other
> marks include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that
> trails off the posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which
> has a rounded lower rear edge of the mask.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
Date: Thu May 19 2016 13:38 pm
From: gwwarbler AT gmail.com
 
I think what is happening is that the person questioning the ID (the ebird
reviewer) saw that the book says Bahama Yellowthroat is supposed to have a
yellow belly, and that they are used to some of the other subspecies that
DO have a yellow belly, so they assumed that this must be a Common
Yellowthroat because it does NOT have a yellow belly. But as you say, I
believe the preponderance of the evidence points towards Bahama
Yellowthroat.

Hopefully I can get some more pictures of the species from the other
islands I'll be visiting for comparison.


Andrew

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM, DPratt14 wrote:

> Hello birders:
>
>
> What's the problem here? It would be far more questionable to have a
> territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat. This bird looks
> just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration, I
> photographed in the same general locality some years ago. Other marks
> include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that trails off the
> posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which has a rounded lower
> rear edge of the mask.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
Date: Thu May 19 2016 10:56 am
From: DPratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Hello birders:


What's the problem here? It would be far more questionable to have a
territorial Common Yellowthroat in this location/habitat. This bird
looks just like Bahama Yellowthroats, including underpart coloration,
I photographed in the same general locality some years ago. Other
marks include the obviously enormous bill and a thin "comma" that
trails off the posterior lower end of the mask, unlike Common which
has a rounded lower rear edge of the mask.

Doug Pratt

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Fwd: RFI - Yellowthroat ID
Date: Wed May 18 2016 12:27 pm
From: gwwarbler AT gmail.com
 
Hi all,

I am currently birding in the Bahamas, and yesterday photographed a
territorial male Yellowthroat on Grand Bahama, in pine barrens with an
thick palmetto understory. I identified the bird as Bahama Yellowthroat at
the time, but the ID was questioned based on the photo I posted to the
ebird list for the location. The photo is visible here:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S29743158

The field mark cited as favoring Common instead of Bahama was the buffy
belly. To my eye, though, the bill looks exceptionally heavy for a
Common. In addition, the hint of yellow above the mask, what appears to me
to be a slightly more extensive mask, and (not obvious in the photo), the
bulky build and apparently larger than expected size for a Common, are what
had me calling it a Bahama Yellowthroat. The habitat and apparent
territoriality in a very un-Common Yellowthroat setting also seemed to
support my ID. I have good recordings of the song and contact call, though
it may be a while before I have a chance to upload those. In the mean
time, can anyone here comment on the ID based on the photo? I'll admit
that I have essentially no experience with Bahama Yellowthroats, so any
help is much appreciated,

Andrew Spencer

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
Date: Tue May 17 2016 11:00 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Dear Julian/All,
Had a fat-finger episode with that last email - I’ll try again…

Here in Texas such a bird would be unusual but certainly not exceptional, as the exact pattern of the upperpart feathers is quite varied, as is the strength of chestnut edging to the tertials. The latter aspect is confounded by the fact that some LESAs retain one or more old/worn basic-type feathers well into May (mostly 2CY birds?)

Regarding the pattern of the innermost greater covert:
Long-toed Stint can occasionally have a not-straight outer edge of the black center, albeit usually a subdued version of the typical pattern for LESA, and more of an indent than a notch - see examples:

http://www.bushpea.com/bd/pg/a...

http://www.nabirding.com/2012/...

http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/l...

http://www.surfbirds.com/media...

http://alder-birds.blog.ntu.ed...


I’d like to ask keen peepophiles about the reverse situation: the extent to which they see LESAs that lack a notch on this feather (i.e. have a straight outer edge to the dark center of the innermost greater covert) - ?

Thanks,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On May 16, 2016, at May 16, 7:22 PM, julian hough wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really only Long-toed would be a consideration.
>
> The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the inner greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it rules out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much angst over other, more variable features.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Julian Hough
> New Haven, CT 06519
> www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby wrote:
>
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
>
> I wanted to share a bird with the
> group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
> and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
> year:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
> that is now
> largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
> vegetation. The
> habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
> mudflats and large
> areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
> day were
> Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
> also present in
> decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
> peeps,
> Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
> stops, though
> the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
> particularly we
> see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
> individuals in the area.
>
> Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
> in very fresh
> alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
> appearance than is
> typical. This particular individual held our attention both
> for the
> brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
> many of the
> feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
> just a
> puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
> posture, and facial
> pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
> Calidridine
> species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
> fairly bright,
> LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq
>
> Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
> in overcast
> conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
> sunlight, under which
> the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
> You can see a
> little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
> Sandpipers in the
> foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
> center):
> https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw
>
> We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
> send it around to
> the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
> experience. Have
> others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
> Does this seem to
> be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
> experience
> with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
> identification?
>
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
>
> J.R.
> Oxford, MS
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
Date: Tue May 17 2016 9:31 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Dear Julian/All,
Here in Texas such a bird would be unusual but certainly not exceptional, as the exact pattern of the l upperpart feathers is quite varied, as in the strength of chestnut edging to the tertials. The latter aspect is confounded by the fact that some LESAs retain one of more old/wrong basic -type feathers well into May (mostly 2CY birds?)

Regarding the pattern of the innermost greater covert:
Long-toed Stint can occasionally have a not-straight outer edge of the black center, albeit usually a subdued version of the typical pattern for LESA, and more of an indent than a notch - see examples:

http://www.bushpea.com/bd/pg/a...

http://www.nabirding.com/2012/...

http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/l...

http://www.surfbirds.com/media...

http://alder-birds.blog.ntu.ed...


I’d like to ask keen peepophiles about the reverse situation: the extent to which they see LESAs that lack a notch on this feather (i.e. have a straight outer edge to the dark center of the innermost greater covert) - ?

Thanks,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On May 16, 2016, at May 16, 7:22 PM, julian hough wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really only Long-toed would be a consideration.
>
> The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the inner greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it rules out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much angst over other, more variable features.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Julian Hough
> New Haven, CT 06519
> www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby wrote:
>
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM
>
> I wanted to share a bird with the
> group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
> and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
> year:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
> that is now
> largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
> vegetation. The
> habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
> mudflats and large
> areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
> day were
> Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
> also present in
> decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
> peeps,
> Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
> stops, though
> the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
> particularly we
> see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
> individuals in the area.
>
> Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
> in very fresh
> alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
> appearance than is
> typical. This particular individual held our attention both
> for the
> brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
> many of the
> feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
> just a
> puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
> posture, and facial
> pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
> Calidridine
> species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
> fairly bright,
> LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq
>
> Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
> in overcast
> conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
> sunlight, under which
> the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
> You can see a
> little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
> Sandpipers in the
> foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
> center):
> https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw
>
> We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
> send it around to
> the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
> experience. Have
> others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
> Does this seem to
> be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
> experience
> with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
> identification?
>
> Thanks for any insight you can offer.
>
> J.R.
> Oxford, MS
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
Date: Mon May 16 2016 20:42 pm
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
Here's the reference to a paper that mentions the previous feature and other good stuff:

The identification of juvenile Red-necked and Long-toed Stints
P Alstrom, U Olsson - Brit. Birds, 1989 - britishbirds.co.uk

Julian Hough
New Haven, CT 06519
www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby wrote:

Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM

I wanted to share a bird with the
group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
year:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
that is now
largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
vegetation. The
habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
mudflats and large
areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
day were
Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
also present in
decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
peeps,
Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
stops, though
the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
particularly we
see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
individuals in the area.

Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
in very fresh
alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
appearance than is
typical. This particular individual held our attention both
for the
brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
many of the
feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
just a
puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
posture, and facial
pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
Calidridine
species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
fairly bright,
LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq

Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
in overcast
conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
sunlight, under which
the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
You can see a
little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
Sandpipers in the
foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
center):
https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw

We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
send it around to
the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
experience. Have
others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
Does this seem to
be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
experience
with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
identification?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

J.R.
Oxford, MS

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
Date: Mon May 16 2016 19:22 pm
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
Jason,

A bright bird indeed! The pattern on the face and the overall tone would attract attention and would likely force the consideration of a stint for many observers. Thankfully the pale legs would eliminate Little Stint, and really only Long-toed would be a consideration.

The key feature I instantly check is the shape of the dark border of the inner greater coverts and tertials...if indented or wavy (like on this bird) it rules out the stints and pegs the bird as a Least Sandpiper without too much angst over other, more variable features.

Hope this helps.

Julian Hough
New Haven, CT 06519
www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/16/16, JR Rigby wrote:

Subject: [BIRDWG01] very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Date: Monday, May 16, 2016, 7:24 PM

I wanted to share a bird with the
group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this
year:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm
that is now
largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession
vegetation. The
habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed
mudflats and large
areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the
day were
Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers
also present in
decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the
peeps,
Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most
stops, though
the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall
particularly we
see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand
individuals in the area.

Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be
in very fresh
alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent
appearance than is
typical. This particular individual held our attention both
for the
brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on
many of the
feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately
just a
puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape,
posture, and facial
pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer)
Calidridine
species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still
fairly bright,
LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq

Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken
in overcast
conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct
sunlight, under which
the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive.
You can see a
little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated
Sandpipers in the
foreground for comparison (focal individual distant
center):
https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw

We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to
send it around to
the group to see if it merits comment from those with more
experience. Have
others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this?
Does this seem to
be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand
experience
with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the
identification?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

J.R.
Oxford, MS

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: very rufous Least Sandpiper plumage?
Date: Mon May 16 2016 18:24 pm
From: jr.rigby AT gmail.com
 
I wanted to share a bird with the group that Jason Hoeksema, Hal Mitchell
and I photographed in central Mississippi on May 11 of this year:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

We were surveying shorebirds on a converted aquaculture farm that is now
largely fallow with some shallow water and early succession vegetation. The
habitat favors the "marsh-pipers" but with some exposed mudflats and large
areas of shallow water. The most numerous shorebirds for the day were
Dunlin (~200) but with White-rumped and Stilt Sandpipers also present in
decent numbers among 15 total shorebird species. Among the peeps,
Semipalmated Sandpipers outnumbered Least Sandpipers at most stops, though
the latter is typically our most abundant peep. In the fall particularly we
see flocks of Least Sandpipers of over a thousand individuals in the area.

Several of the Least Sandpipers on this day appeared to be in very fresh
alternate plumage, giving them a brighter rufescent appearance than is
typical. This particular individual held our attention both for the
brightness of the plumage and the extent of rufous edging on many of the
feathers. After much discussion we decided it was ultimately just a
puzzling Least Sandpiper since structure, bill shape, posture, and facial
pattern did not seem to us to favor any of the other (rarer) Calidridine
species. For comparison, here is a more typical, but still fairly bright,
LESA individual from the same flock: https://flic.kr/p/GaWMTq

Keep in mind that the photos in the gallery above were taken in overcast
conditions. We first encountered the bird in direct sunlight, under which
the rich coppery tones of the plumage were most impressive. You can see a
little of this in another photograph with Semipalmated Sandpipers in the
foreground for comparison (focal individual distant center):
https://flic.kr/p/GEj3Cw

We found this to be a remarkable plumage, so I wanted to send it around to
the group to see if it merits comment from those with more experience. Have
others seen LESA alternate plumages that look like this? Does this seem to
be an outlier or within normal variation? With no first-hand experience
with stints, we ruled this a LESA. Do others agree with the identification?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

J.R.
Oxford, MS

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: A request for images of atricapillus Northern Goshawk
Date: Mon May 16 2016 5:28 am
From: hhussey3 AT gmail.com
 
Hello all,
I am presently doing a little bit of my own research into the
diagnosbility (or otherwise) of atricapillus Northern Goshawk versus
nominate gentilis. I have been able to source many images of birds
photographed in various European countries, but, to date, my sample size of
images of atricapillus is pitifully small. I am particularly interested in
images of juveniles, either in flight, or trapped for ringing/banding
(preferrably with at least one wing spread to show the underwing pattern),
but images of adults would be gratefully received also, in spite of
features being known that allow for their seperation (though testing the
robustness of these criteria would also be interesting. Based on online
images, however, they do seem rather distinctive).
Please e-mail any images, links or whatever to me privately, no point
in clogging up this group!
Regards,
Harry Hussey, Cork, Ireland


Virus-free.
www.avast.com



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Within Range for NA Mew Gull?
Date: Thu May 12 2016 23:52 pm
From: baro AT pdx.edu
 
Years ago i photographed a 'mew' with a tail just like this in a flock of
100 or so at a large grassy park in flight in portland in winter. ID
unknown. Bob obrien. Carver. (Slide so very hard to find).

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, Matthew G Hunter
wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I've been going through "older" photos from the last few years and
> uploading some to my "old" eBird checklists for those years. I have these
> photos of a gull that I recall wondering about in the field, and it has me
> wondering now. Taken Dec 22, 2013 on the central Oregon Coast. This is a
> first-winter type "Mew" Gull. Reason for my head-scratching is the very
> banded tail. My first general impression of bird on water was a Mew Gull
> (vs Ring-billed Gull) because of darker gray mantle, generally
> non-contrasty plumage including on spread wings, brownish vs blackish dark
> areas of wingtips and tail, dull brown/gray breast and belly, and smudgy
> versus sharp contrast on the bill. But, look at that tail!!! Is this
> "banded" tail in the normal range of variation for North American Mew
Gull?
> Other than the tail, it doesn't seem to have many other features of
> Kamchatka Gull; in other words, the body plumage seems smudgey versus more
> distinct spots/bars; although the bill is fairly robust. I have no field
> experience with any of these except Ring-billed and Mew; looking at
> Howell/Dunn Gulls. Thoughts?
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> Matt Hunter
> SW Oregon
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Within Range for NA Mew Gull?
Date: Thu May 12 2016 18:37 pm
From: matthewghunter AT gmail.com
 
Hi Folks,
I've been going through "older" photos from the last few years and
uploading some to my "old" eBird checklists for those years. I have these
photos of a gull that I recall wondering about in the field, and it has me
wondering now. Taken Dec 22, 2013 on the central Oregon Coast. This is a
first-winter type "Mew" Gull. Reason for my head-scratching is the very
banded tail. My first general impression of bird on water was a Mew Gull
(vs Ring-billed Gull) because of darker gray mantle, generally
non-contrasty plumage including on spread wings, brownish vs blackish dark
areas of wingtips and tail, dull brown/gray breast and belly, and smudgy
versus sharp contrast on the bill. But, look at that tail!!! Is this
"banded" tail in the normal range of variation for North American Mew Gull?
Other than the tail, it doesn't seem to have many other features of
Kamchatka Gull; in other words, the body plumage seems smudgey versus more
distinct spots/bars; although the bill is fairly robust. I have no field
experience with any of these except Ring-billed and Mew; looking at
Howell/Dunn Gulls. Thoughts?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Matt Hunter
SW Oregon

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: RFI- Samuel Patten's Dissertation
Date: Fri May 6 2016 12:26 pm
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
Samuel Patten published a number of papers on the gulls in the Anchorage
area. One paper I'm not able to find anywhere in the literature is his
dissertation from Johns Hopkins University on hybridization of Herring and
Glaucous-winged Gulls. I would be greatly appreciative in any help finding
this piece. Thanks in advance.

*Patten, S.J. 1980. Interbreeding and evolution in the Larus
glaucescens–Larus*

*argentatus complex on the south coast of Alaska. Ph.D. dissertation, Johns*

*Hopkins University.*



Regards,

Amar Ayyash

Orland Park, IL - USA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
Date: Fri May 6 2016 10:50 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Karen, 
This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but definitely on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more streaking on this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would be to assess the back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't get a good sense of that from the photos.
Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different song types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit vs Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas songs are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and Black-throated Gray given that these two are not closely related. The songs are buzzy and may resemble Black-throated Green to some extent, but my guess is that given the overall noted similarity may be due to your experience with Black-throated Green and that this species is similar enough in some songs that it "triggered" the ID of Black-throated Green. There is really no natural situation that is likely where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from Black-throated Green in the breeding period.

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery

Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler (or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.

I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky auriculars and the underside. The results are in a separate gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the bird's appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some descriptive commentary.

The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along with a report.

Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or off-list.

Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
Date: Fri May 6 2016 9:49 am
From: easternbluebird AT gmail.com
 
Thank you, Alvaro.
All three of us agreed that the back of the bird did not show any green.
It was actually the dark back that Alexis zeroed in on when he first looked
at the bird in the field and pointed it out to me, and then to Anthony who
showed up later. The nape was black, and we could clearly see how it
tapered to a black line going up the back of the head. I don't know if the
dark back had a pattern but there was no olive tone to it from our vantage
point. It appeared to be dark gray. The first photo in the series shows
this the best, but a view of the full back would've been ideal.

Regarding streaking, the photo of the museum specimen of an adult male
Hermit showed streaking as well, so apparently that can occur.

Regarding song, someone floated the idea that maybe this warbler came east
last Spring and picked up the song then. I listened to recordings of
Hermit and Townsend's on the Sibley app and then on xeno-canto that
evening, and they were totally unfamiliar to me. I'm not sure if I
would've noticed them in the field, as listening conditions were not
optimal.

I still hope that the bird will be refound so that others can take a look
and document with more photos and some recordings. This has been a
valuable educational experience for me, regardless of the outcome on ID.

Best,
Karen

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Alvaro Jaramillo
wrote:

> Karen,
> This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but
> definitely on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more
> streaking on this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would
> be to assess the back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't
> get a good sense of that from the photos.
> Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different
> song types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit
> vs Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas
> songs are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and
> Black-throated Gray given that these two are not closely related. So that
> suggests some more complex process is going on there. The songs of Hermit
> or Townsend's are buzzy and may resemble Black-throated Green to some
> extent, but my guess is that the noted similarity you heard may be due to
> your experience with Black-throated Green and that this species (Hermit)
> is similar enough in some songs that it "triggered" the ID of
> Black-throated Green. There is really no natural situation that is likely
> where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from Black-throated Green in
> the breeding period.
> Great find, whatever it is!!!
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung
> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated
> Photo Gallery
>
> Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and
> off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and
> have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were
> extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler
> (or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear
> that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have
> dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a
> museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this
> complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.
>
> I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for
> submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with
> better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky
> auriculars and the underside. The results are in a separate gallery:
>
> http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...
>
> The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but
> I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the
> bird's appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some
> descriptive commentary.
>
> The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with
> the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along
> with a report.
>
> Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or
> off-list.
>
> Thanks again,
> Karen Fung
> NYC
> http://www.birdsiviews.com
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
Date: Fri May 6 2016 9:16 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Karen, 
This is either a Hermit Warbler, or mostly a Hermit Warbler...but definitely on the Hermit Warbler side if it is of mixed genes. I see more streaking on this bird that I see on classic Hermit Warblers. The key would be to assess the back color and pattern, grayish or greenish etc. I can't get a good sense of that from the photos.
Regarding song, these birds have variable songs, as well as different song types. I do not think they "copy" each other's songs. Songs of Hermit vs Townsend's are not necessarily separable with confidence. In some areas songs are more similar than they should be between Townsend's and Black-throated Gray given that these two are not closely related. So that suggests some more complex process is going on there. The songs of Hermit or Townsend's are buzzy and may resemble Black-throated Green to some extent, but my guess is that the noted similarity you heard may be due to your experience with Black-throated Green and that this species (Hermit) is similar enough in some songs that it "triggered" the ID of Black-throated Green. There is really no natural situation that is likely where a Hermit Warbler may be learning songs from Black-throated Green in the breeding period.
Great find, whatever it is!!!
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Karen Fung
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 4:33 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery

Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler (or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.

I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky auriculars and the underside. The results are in a separate gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the bird's appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some descriptive commentary.

The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along with a report.

Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or off-list.

Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: NYC Central Park Hermit Warbler (1 May 2016): Updated Photo Gallery
Date: Fri May 6 2016 6:33 am
From: easternbluebird AT gmail.com
 
Many thanks to all who responded earlier to my queries, both on- and
off-line. Comments from those who have spent time on the west coast and
have direct experience studying the Hermit/Townsend's species complex were
extremely helpful, since I have never seen a Hermit or Townsend's Warbler
(or Golden-cheeked, for that matter...). It was especially useful to hear
that adult male Hermit Warblers with complete black bibs can sometimes have
dusky auriculars (one reader sent me a photo of such a specimen from a
museum collection, showing this feature), and that the species in this
complex can copy other warblers' songs fairly often.

I reviewed all my photos again after reading the NYSARC guidelines for
submitting a good report. The goal was to see if I could come up with
better representations of the bird's plumage, specifically the dusky
auriculars and the underside. The results are in a separate gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...

The photos are more heavily cropped and may not reveal anything new, but
I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible with my documentation of the
bird's appearance. There is one additional photo, along with some
descriptive commentary.

The new photos will be added to my eBird checklist (which was posted with
the old photos, but not reviewed yet) and will be submitted to NYSARC along
with a report.

Feel free to share your thoughts if you feel so inclined, either on- or
off-list.

Thanks again,
Karen Fung
NYC
http://www.birdsiviews.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Tanager ID
Date: Wed May 4 2016 5:27 am
From: ruff2 AT verizon.net
 
 Hi All,

I'd be interested in your opinions on the ID of this tanager. The picture was taken on 8/22/15 and is admittedly back lit and not the greatest. I do not want to bias anyone by revealing the location. I have only cropped the photo, otherwise it is as it came right out of the camera. The one preceding it in my queue has been brightened a bit.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

thanks,

Russ Ruffing

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
Date: Mon May 2 2016 18:54 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
The traditional description of a Black-throated Green song could also describe many local dialects of the Hermit Warbler song, which is comprised of a sequence fast "zee" notes and concludes with an emphatic up slurred two-note phrase that often sounds like the"zoo-zee" ending of a BT Green. This bird looks like a pure Hermit with no obvious indications of hybridization. Geographic variation in the songs of Hermit,  BT Gray and Townsend's are well known and persist in confounding even the the most experienced western birders at times. I don't think that vocalization similarity can be used as an indicator of hybridization within this species complex. Unless there are intermediate plumage characteristics, this warbler should be presumed to be a non-hybrid. As Kevin Karlson indicated, male Hermits can show some dark feathering in the auriculars.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 8:44 PM, Karen Fung wrote:
>
> Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:
>
> http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...
>
> Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
> upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
> yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent. The bird had a
> yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
> little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.
>
> The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
> Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.
>
> I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
> cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
> Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
> approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
> of hybrid. Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
> and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
> scenarios might lead to this result? One person suggested that perhaps a
> Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
> like a plausible explanation.
>
> More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
> blog:
>
> http://welshbirder.blogspot.co...
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Karen Fung
> NYC
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
Date: Mon May 2 2016 18:11 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Karen,female or young male Hermit Warblers have dark markings on the cheek,but the complete black throat and bold mostly yellow face suggests a male, plus it was singing,so probably a male.I am not familiar with Hermit song variations, but nothing in the photos suggests a hybrid. Looks like a good Hermit Warbler. Congratulations on the good photos. Kevin Karlson
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Fung
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Mon, 02 May 2016 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [BIRDWG01] NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song

Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...

Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent. The bird had a
yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.

The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.

I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
of hybrid. Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
scenarios might lead to this result? One person suggested that perhaps a
Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
like a plausible explanation.

More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
blog:

http://welshbirder.blogspot.co...

Many thanks,

Karen Fung
NYC

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: NYC: Central Park mystery warbler with Hermit appearance, BTGreen song
Date: Sun May 1 2016 22:44 pm
From: easternbluebird AT gmail.com
 
Four photos from this morning (1 May 2016) are in this gallery:

http://www.birdsiviews.com/Bir...

Appearance points to Hermit Warbler based on the yellow head, dark
upperparts, dark nape, neat black triangular bib, white underparts with no
yellow and almost no streaking, lack of yellow in the vent. The bird had a
yellow eye-ring, but some folks are saying that the auricular patch looks
little dark for a Hermit with a solid black bib like this one.

The bird occasionally sang the Zee-Zee-Zee-Zoo-Zee song of the
Black-throated Green, or some song very close to it.

I apologize for the quality of the pics, which are blurry and heavily
cropped, but am hoping that someone who has expertise in Hermit and
Townsend's can weigh in on whether a Hermit Warbler vocalizations ever
approach this particular BTGreen song and if not, whether this is some sort
of hybrid. Hermits and BTGreens do not overlap in their breeding ranges
and this warbler did not really show any Townsend's features, so what
scenarios might lead to this result? One person suggested that perhaps a
Hermit showed up in the East during breeding season last year, which seems
like a plausible explanation.

More info on the discovery of this bird can be found in Anthony Collerton's
blog:

http://welshbirder.blogspot.co...

Many thanks,

Karen Fung
NYC

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification
Date: Tue Apr 26 2016 14:13 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
I want to make people aware of a Facebook group dedicated to sharing Song
Sparrow photos and discussing subspecific id at
https://www.facebook.com/group...

There's also a Fox Sparrow Facebook group at
https://www.facebook.com/group...



On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Dan A wrote:

> Good day, all!
> As a long-time lurker, I've followed many a discussion on the listserv
> with great interest and learned a lot. I finally have a bird to submit for
> subspecies identification. This Song Sparrow was photographed at Frank
> Lake, in southern Alberta, Canada in early March, and managed to
> successfully overwinter in our extremely temperate cold season at a water
> outflow channel, and was observed by several birders throughout the season.
> What caught my eye was the overall grayish and reddish-brown tones to the
> bird, which is more typical of the western subspecies complex, rather than
> the eastern Melospiza melodia montana subspecies, which is much paler and
> browner overall.
> I've got a few ideas of what subspecies this bird belongs to, but I look
> forward to your expert opinions!
> Photo 1:https://flic.kr/p/E3MXk6
> Photo 2:https://flic.kr/p/Ey3S5E
> Photo 3:https://flic.kr/p/F1aUFB
> Daniel Arndt
>
> Cell: (403) 836-7405
>
> bowvalleytours.com
>
> Flickr.com/photos/ubermoogle
>
> www.birdscalgary.com
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Song Sparrow Subspecies identification
Date: Tue Apr 26 2016 13:16 pm
From: danielarndt AT hotmail.com
 
Good day, all!
As a long-time lurker, I've followed many a discussion on the listserv with great interest and learned a lot. I finally have a bird to submit for subspecies identification. This Song Sparrow was photographed at Frank Lake, in southern Alberta, Canada in early March, and managed to successfully overwinter in our extremely temperate cold season at a water outflow channel, and was observed by several birders throughout the season.
What caught my eye was the overall grayish and reddish-brown tones to the bird, which is more typical of the western subspecies complex, rather than the eastern Melospiza melodia montana subspecies, which is much paler and browner overall.
I've got a few ideas of what subspecies this bird belongs to, but I look forward to your expert opinions!
Photo 1:https://flic.kr/p/E3MXk6
Photo 2:https://flic.kr/p/Ey3S5E
Photo 3:https://flic.kr/p/F1aUFB
Daniel Arndt

Cell: (403) 836-7405

bowvalleytours.com

Flickr.com/photos/ubermoogle

www.birdscalgary.com
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: hawk question
Date: Mon Apr 25 2016 17:25 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
Thanks all.  A wide variety of answers (Broad-winged, Swainson's, and
possible hybrid) but the consensus is over-exposed Swainson's in the wind,
based on the a combination of plumage features.

Here is the most detailed and informative response, from Louis Bevier:

This is a Swainson’s Hawk. The fine barring in the remiges is too narrow
for Broad-winged of any age. It’s an adult by virtue of the dark band along
the trailing edge of those remiges, and adult Broad-wings have a few pale
bars in the emarginated tips of P9-8. Swainson’s shows all dark in those
“fingers” as you can see in the photo.

Also, if an adult, then the tail is obviously wrong for Broad-winged, and
you don’t see 1st year Broad-wings ever showing the dark breast like an
adult yet with wings of an adult and tail of juvenile. Moreover the
spotting below the breast is typical of Swainson’s Hawk. An adult-ish
(looking) Broad-wing has dark spade-shaped marks or bars down there and on
the leg feathers.

I think the wings are pulled up and away from the plane of the camera,
making it look short winged (and that may have been an impression enhanced
by the wind). Everything else fits adult Swainson’s.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Brian Sullivan
wrote:

> Hi Steve et al.
>
> This bird is consistent with an adult Swainson's Hawk, likely female given
> the uniform brown head and breast. The strong light, and wind, are
> affecting how we perceive both its plumage and shape.
>
> Thanks
>
> Brian
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Steve Hampton
> wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.
>>
>> Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.
>>
>> This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
>> than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
>> windy at the time).
>>
>> https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2
>>
>> Comments are welcome.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Hampton
>> Davis, CA
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ===========
>
>
> *Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
> www.ebird.org
>
> *Photo Editor*
> Birds of North America Online
> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
> -------------------------------
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: hawk question
Date: Mon Apr 25 2016 13:15 pm
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Hi Steve et al.

This bird is consistent with an adult Swainson's Hawk, likely female given
the uniform brown head and breast. The strong light, and wind, are
affecting how we perceive both its plumage and shape.

Thanks

Brian

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Steve Hampton
wrote:

> All,
>
> This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.
>
> Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.
>
> This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
> than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
> windy at the time).
>
> https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: hawk question
Date: Mon Apr 25 2016 11:45 am
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
All,

This hawk was photographed April 16 near Davis, CA by Mark Sawyer.

Expected species in this area are Swainson's and Red-tailed.

This hawk was thought to be a possible Broad-winged, as it seemed smaller
than adjacent Swainson's and with widespread primaries (although it was
windy at the time).

https://flic.kr/p/Gx1bY2

Comments are welcome.

thanks,


--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Please help keep this website, Birding News, up and running with a (suggested) $5 donation to the American Birding Association.



ABA RBA



ABA's FREE Birder's Guide. Get the most recent issue now >>

ABA RBA




If you live nearby, or are travelling in the area, come visit the ABA Headquarters in Delaware City. Beginning this spring we will be having bird walks, heron watches and evening cruises, right from our front porch!

Click here to view the full calender, and register for events >>



Get Flight Calls, the ABA newsletter, delivered to your inbox each month...




Contact us.