ABA's Birding News >> ID Frontiers

ID Frontiers bird news by date

Updated on October 19, 2017, 9:05 am

Want to easily find posts that mention ABA rare birds? Choose a code below:

ABA Code 2 Birds  |  ABA Code 3 Birds  |  ABA Code 4 Birds  |  ABA Code 5 Birds


19 Oct: @ 09:04:41 Re: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse [Robert O'Brien]
19 Oct: @ 08:44:29 Re: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse [Robert O'Brien]
17 Oct: @ 19:34:21 Re: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse [Jerry Tangren]
17 Oct: @ 12:36:17  ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse [Walter Szeliga]
11 Oct: @ 07:54:42  Central FL Empid ID [Daniel Estabrooks]
10 Oct: @ 18:00:11 Re: Empidonax in Northern AZ [Alvaro Jaramillo]
10 Oct: @ 17:45:43  Empidonax in Northern AZ [Jason A Wilder]
09 Oct: @ 13:30:04 Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID [Ron Pittaway]
09 Oct: @ 12:24:42 Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID [Jerry Tangren]
09 Oct: @ 11:34:36 Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID [Tony Leukering]
09 Oct: @ 09:51:50 Re: Juvenile Plegadis ID [David Sibley]
08 Oct: @ 22:53:17 Re: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska [Noah Arthur]
08 Oct: @ 22:21:17 Re: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska [Peter Pyle]
08 Oct: @ 21:37:32 Re: Juvenile Plegadis ID [Tony Leukering]
08 Oct: @ 21:27:00 Re: Juvenile Plegadis ID [Steve Hampton]
08 Oct: @ 21:19:17 Re: Juvenile Plegadis ID [Noah Arthur]
08 Oct: @ 20:50:04  Juvenile Plegadis ID [Tony Leukering]
08 Oct: @ 19:04:21 Re: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland [David Irons]
08 Oct: @ 18:36:00 Re: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland [Peter Pyle]
08 Oct: @ 17:47:16 Re: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland [Avery Bartels]
08 Oct: @ 17:31:46 Re: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland [Bruce Mactavish]
08 Oct: @ 13:26:01 Re: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska [David Irons]
08 Oct: @ 13:05:28  Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska [Noah Arthur]
08 Oct: @ 09:00:51 Re: Snowy? Cattle? Little Blue? All of the above? Clarity desired in Oregon.... [Floyd Hayes]
07 Oct: @ 23:46:27  Snowy? Cattle? Little Blue? All of the above? Clarity desired in Oregon.... [Jay Withgott]
06 Oct: @ 01:09:48  David Dortch [DPratt14]
02 Oct: @ 14:41:23 Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [BIRDWG01] New Photos - RE: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Lethaby, Nick]
02 Oct: @ 14:25:37 Re: New Photos - RE: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Robert Lewis]
02 Oct: @ 13:14:16  New Photos - RE: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Jason A Wilder]
02 Oct: @ 06:14:09 Re: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Andrew Baksh]
02 Oct: @ 04:24:14  IBWO evidence published [Michael D. Collins]
01 Oct: @ 23:01:25 Re: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Noah Arthur]
01 Oct: @ 22:57:31  Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona [Jason A Wilder]
01 Oct: @ 14:27:27  NO SIGHTING – RFI birding Barrow, Nome [David Starrett]
01 Oct: @ 06:41:59 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [Killian Mullarney]
01 Oct: @ 01:19:46 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [Defos du rau Pierre]
30 Sep: @ 18:01:04 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [=?UTF-8?Q?[_Ricard_Guti=C3=A9rrez_]?=]
30 Sep: @ 15:47:23 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [jrhough1@snet.net]
30 Sep: @ 12:10:35 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [=?UTF-8?Q?[_Ricard_Guti=C3=A9rrez_]?=]
26 Sep: @ 04:01:32 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [Defos du rau Pierre]
25 Sep: @ 14:31:16 Re: Odd Calconectris shearwater [julian hough]
25 Sep: @ 13:31:21  Odd Calconectris shearwater [Will Chatfield-Taylor]
25 Sep: @ 07:32:15  Mystery Warbler-Another Response [Bates Estabrooks]
24 Sep: @ 15:40:40 Re: Mystery Warbler-Responses I Have Received [Bates Estabrooks]
24 Sep: @ 10:14:41 Re: Mystery Warbler [Bates Estabrooks]
23 Sep: @ 23:10:24 Re: Mystery Warbler [David Irons]
23 Sep: @ 15:55:24  Mystery Warbler [Bates Estabrooks]
22 Sep: @ 16:55:34 Re: Wisconsin Jaeger (trying again) [Kevin McLaughlin]
22 Sep: @ 16:36:47 Re: Wisconsin Jaeger (trying again) [Nick Anich]
22 Sep: @ 14:00:28 Re: Wisconsin jaeger [Nick Anich]





Subject: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
Date: Thu Oct 19 2017 9:04 am
From: baro AT pdx.edu
 
And then there are hermit and Townsend's warblers..

On Thursday, October 19, 2017, Robert O'Brien wrote:
>
> So my question is, why doesn't the same rationale apply to audubon's and
Myrtle warblers. These "hybridize like crazy" in some areas of British
Columbia but there is little gene flow out of this very limited area of
their huge territories. At least this is my interpretation of the situation.
> Bob O'Brien Portland Oregon
>
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2017, Jerry Tangren
wrote:
>> Walter, I don™t know about Table Mtn, but farther north along the east
slopes and across to the west side of the Cascades, intergrades are
present. This is one of those splits decided on the basis of the rate of
gene flow; it™s not a simple issue where an individual belongs to one
species or the other.
>>
>> ”Jerry Tangren
>> East Wenatchee, WA
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> ________________________________
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Walter Szeliga <
walter.szeliga@GMAIL.COM>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:36:03 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>> The dividing line between Dusky and Sooty Grouse is mapped as
crossing Table Mountain in northeastern Kittitas County (Washington State).
Occasionally folks get photographs of individuals from this region and mark
them as Dusky/Sooty. Now that this split is a few years old, have methods
of separating these species developed? I know that if the tail is spread,
or you have a bird-in-hand, one could count the retrices, or, if you saw a
male displaying and could discern the color of the air sac, this might be a
more straightforward ID. However, beyond those cases (which never seem to
happen), how could one split these species in the field? In particular,
look at the photos in this eBird checklist:
>>
>> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch... <
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>>
>> Is there anyway to ID this female to species?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Walter Szeliga
>> Ellensburg, WA
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
Date: Thu Oct 19 2017 8:44 am
From: baro AT pdx.edu
 
So my question is, why doesn't the same rationale apply to audubon's and
Myrtle warblers. These "hybridize like crazy" in some areas of British
Columbia but there is little gene flow out of this very limited area of
their huge territories. At least this is my interpretation of the
situation.
Bob O'Brien Portland Oregon

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017, Jerry Tangren wrote:
> Walter, I don™t know about Table Mtn, but farther north along the east
slopes and across to the west side of the Cascades, intergrades are
present. This is one of those splits decided on the basis of the rate of
gene flow; it™s not a simple issue where an individual belongs to one
species or the other.
>
> ”Jerry Tangren
> East Wenatchee, WA
>
> Get Outlook for iOS
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Walter Szeliga <
walter.szeliga@GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:36:03 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
>
> Hi Everyone,
> The dividing line between Dusky and Sooty Grouse is mapped as
crossing Table Mountain in northeastern Kittitas County (Washington State).
Occasionally folks get photographs of individuals from this region and mark
them as Dusky/Sooty. Now that this split is a few years old, have methods
of separating these species developed? I know that if the tail is spread,
or you have a bird-in-hand, one could count the retrices, or, if you saw a
male displaying and could discern the color of the air sac, this might be a
more straightforward ID. However, beyond those cases (which never seem to
happen), how could one split these species in the field? In particular,
look at the photos in this eBird checklist:
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch... <
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>
> Is there anyway to ID this female to species?
>
> Cheers,
> Walter Szeliga
> Ellensburg, WA
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
Date: Tue Oct 17 2017 19:34 pm
From: kloshewoods AT outlook.com
 
Walter, I dont know about Table Mtn, but farther north along the east slopes and across to the west side of the Cascades, intergrades are present. This is one of those splits decided on the basis of the rate of gene flow; its not a simple issue where an individual belongs to one species or the other.

Jerry Tangren
East Wenatchee, WA

Get Outlook for iOS
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Walter Szeliga
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:36:03 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse

Hi Everyone,
The dividing line between Dusky and Sooty Grouse is mapped as crossing Table Mountain in northeastern Kittitas County (Washington State). Occasionally folks get photographs of individuals from this region and mark them as Dusky/Sooty. Now that this split is a few years old, have methods of separating these species developed? I know that if the tail is spread, or you have a bird-in-hand, one could count the retrices, or, if you saw a male displaying and could discern the color of the air sac, this might be a more straightforward ID. However, beyond those cases (which never seem to happen), how could one split these species in the field? In particular, look at the photos in this eBird checklist:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

Is there anyway to ID this female to species?

Cheers,
Walter Szeliga
Ellensburg, WA
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: ID'ing female Dusky vs Sooty Grouse
Date: Tue Oct 17 2017 12:36 pm
From: walter.szeliga AT gmail.com
 
Hi Everyone,
The dividing line between Dusky and Sooty Grouse is mapped as crossing Table Mountain in northeastern Kittitas County (Washington State). Occasionally folks get photographs of individuals from this region and mark them as Dusky/Sooty. Now that this split is a few years old, have methods of separating these species developed? I know that if the tail is spread, or you have a bird-in-hand, one could count the retrices, or, if you saw a male displaying and could discern the color of the air sac, this might be a more straightforward ID. However, beyond those cases (which never seem to happen), how could one split these species in the field? In particular, look at the photos in this eBird checklist:

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

Is there anyway to ID this female to species?

Cheers,
Walter Szeliga
Ellensburg, WA
Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Central FL Empid ID
Date: Wed Oct 11 2017 7:54 am
From: daniel.estabrooks AT warner.edu
 
Saddle Creek Park
Lakeland, FL
10/10/2017

See links below for two photos of an Empid photographed by a friend of
mine. Acadian is the only expected Empid in this area at any time of year,
but to me the primaries look too short, fat, and rounded. Of course the
length could be distorted by the angle of the photo, but the feathers still
don't have that thin pointy look I associate with Acadian.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Can any Empid experts weigh in?

Daniel Estabrooks
Assistant Professor of Biological Sciences
Warner University
13895 Hwy. 27
Lake Wales, FL 33859

--
Security & Confidentiality:
Warner University has sent this E-mail in the understanding that Internet
messaging is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you
also observe this lack of security when E-mailing us. This email and its
attachments are intended for the person to whom the E-mail is addressed and
may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient you must take no
action based on it, nor must you copy or distribute the information. Thank
you.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Empidonax in Northern AZ
Date: Tue Oct 10 2017 18:00 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Jason
Looks like a Hammond's Flycatcher to me. The fresh youngsters are amazingly yellow and green, with a contrastingly more grayish head and throat. Look at the long primary extension and the spacing of the primaries. They also have a Ruby-crowned Kinglet like look to the facial expression due to the eyering shape. That photo of the bird leaning down to the right, is classic kinglet look of Hammonds.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jason A Wilder
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 3:46 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Empidonax in Northern AZ

Hi all,
Today a group of three of us observed an Empidonax at Meteor Crater, AZ. The bird caused us quite a bit of consternation in the field. It was a colorful green-backed and yellow-bellied bird with an evident crest and broken eyering. The obvious conclusion was "Western" Flycatcher, despite being a somewhat late date. Bothering us in the field was an evident long-ish primary extension, along with the overall bright colorful tones of the bird that contrasted with fairly dark wings. Both of these features confused us quite a bit!
Looking at photos of the bird the wing pattern seems somewhat unusual for "Western" and I am wondering if is perhaps more consistent with Yellow-bellied? Specifically, in the primary extension the gap between P5 and P6 is not as large as typical for Western, and is only about 1.3x the gap between P6 and P7 (estimated by measuring across multiple photos). Thus the primary extension has an evenly-spaced appearance of primary tips. In the extended wing, P10 is quite long and is at least as long as P5. Though a bit variable depending on lighting, the edges of the secondaries have a distinct yellow-greenish cast. The eyering is definitely extended in the rear, but does not quite have the classic "teardrop" shape of Western (though it does seem to disappear at the top of the eye).

Quite a few good pictures of the bird here:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm99aEfy

Thanks all,
Jason
Flagstaff, AZ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Empidonax in Northern AZ
Date: Tue Oct 10 2017 17:45 pm
From: Jason.Wilder AT nau.edu
 
Hi all,
Today a group of three of us observed an Empidonax at Meteor Crater, AZ. The bird caused us quite a bit of consternation in the field. It was a colorful green-backed and yellow-bellied bird with an evident crest and broken eyering. The obvious conclusion was "Western" Flycatcher, despite being a somewhat late date. Bothering us in the field was an evident long-ish primary extension, along with the overall bright colorful tones of the bird that contrasted with fairly dark wings. Both of these features confused us quite a bit!
Looking at photos of the bird the wing pattern seems somewhat unusual for "Western" and I am wondering if is perhaps more consistent with Yellow-bellied? Specifically, in the primary extension the gap between P5 and P6 is not as large as typical for Western, and is only about 1.3x the gap between P6 and P7 (estimated by measuring across multiple photos). Thus the primary extension has an evenly-spaced appearance of primary tips. In the extended wing, P10 is quite long and is at least as long as P5. Though a bit variable depending on lighting, the edges of the secondaries have a distinct yellow-greenish cast. The eyering is definitely extended in the rear, but does not quite have the classic "teardrop" shape of Western (though it does seem to disappear at the top of the eye).

Quite a few good pictures of the bird here:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm99aEfy

Thanks all,
Jason
Flagstaff, AZ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Mon Oct 9 2017 13:30 pm
From: jeaniron AT sympatico.ca
 
Tony's comment that "hybrids are relatively frequent in Colorado, Kansas,
and Oklahoma" is intriguing. Palmer (1962) in the Handbook of North American
Birds said "Glossy and White-faced Ibises of A.O.U. list combined here as
subspecies of a single species." Under hybrids Palmer says White-faced birds
from Argentina and dark ones from Spain freely interbred in the London Zoo.
Interestingly, Palmer says that Glossy Ibis "May actually be a rather recent
arrival from the Old World. Authentic breeding records for our area date
back only to the 1880's".

Ron Pittaway
Toronto, Ontario


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerry Tangren
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:24 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile
Plegadis ID

Which begs the question as to whether we're actually talking about two
separate species. Can someone bring me up to speed on the answer? Thanks!

-Jerry Tangren
East Wenatchee, WA


Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
on behalf of Tony Leukering
<000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:34:06 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile
Plegadis ID

Hi all:


Actually, I had intended to touch on the "H" subject in my original post, as
hybrids are relatively frequent in Colorado, Kansas, and Oklahoma; see


https://cobirds.org/CFO/Colora...


and


http://ebird.org/ebird/map/gxw...
v.maxY=&zhse&gpse&ev=Z&mr=112&bmo=1emo&yr=al&byr00&eyr 17


Obviously, hybrids throw another huge monkey wrench into an
already-difficult field-ID problem.


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Cardiff
To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



Tony, Steve et al.-
Hybridization is also occurring and is probably increasing in frequency
and expanding geographically, so beware. Adult hybrids are one thing, but
identification of immatures to species or as hybrids is going to be
problematic, especially in the south-central USA.


Steve Cardiff
LSU Museum of natural Science.



On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:07 AM, 'Steven Mlodinow' via eBird Regional
Editors wrote:

Greetings


I somehow missed Tony's posting on this topic


He (or someone else) may have said this, but if the eye is red or the facial
skin distinctly pink, which sometimes does happen, then ID as WF Ibis is
easily done in birds sporting basic/formative plumage


Best Regards
Steve Mlodinow




-----Original Message-----
From: 'Tony Leukering' via eBird Regional Editors

To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:04 am
Subject: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID





Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: David Sibley
To: Tony Leukering
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



There are several features that might be useful for separating fall immature
Ibises: White-faced generally has a more "moss-green" gloss on the back and
wings (vs more blue-green on Glossy), White-faced has paler underparts
(especially the tibia feathering) and might tend to have a more colorless
gray bill (vs more brown-toned).


Applying those to the birds in the links in Tony's email, I would guess that
the PA and VA birds are Glossy, and the Ohio and Arkansas birds are
White-faced Ibis. Not to say that's what they are for sure, just to
reinforce Tony's point that face pattern/eye color is not useful at this
age, and it's incorrect to label them all Glossy.



Good Birding,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com








--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Mon Oct 9 2017 12:24 pm
From: kloshewoods AT outlook.com
 
Which begs the question as to whether were actually talking about two separate species. Can someone bring me up to speed on the answer? Thanks!

Jerry Tangren
East Wenatchee, WA


Get Outlook for iOS
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Tony Leukering <000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:34:06 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID

Hi all:


Actually, I had intended to touch on the "H" subject in my original post, as hybrids are relatively frequent in Colorado, Kansas, and Oklahoma; see


https://cobirds.org/CFO/Colora...


and


http://ebird.org/ebird/map/gxw...


Obviously, hybrids throw another huge monkey wrench into an already-difficult field-ID problem.


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Cardiff
To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



Tony, Steve et al.-
Hybridization is also occurring and is probably increasing in frequency and expanding geographically, so beware. Adult hybrids are one thing, but identification of immatures to species or as hybrids is going to be problematic, especially in the south-central USA.


Steve Cardiff
LSU Museum of natural Science.



On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:07 AM, 'Steven Mlodinow' via eBird Regional Editors wrote:

Greetings


I somehow missed Tony's posting on this topic


He (or someone else) may have said this, but if the eye is red or the facial skin distinctly pink, which sometimes does happen, then ID as WF Ibis is easily done in birds sporting basic/formative plumage


Best Regards
Steve Mlodinow




-----Original Message-----
From: 'Tony Leukering' via eBird Regional Editors
To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:04 am
Subject: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID





Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: David Sibley
To: Tony Leukering
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



There are several features that might be useful for separating fall immature Ibises: White-faced generally has a more "moss-green" gloss on the back and wings (vs more blue-green on Glossy), White-faced has paler underparts (especially the tibia feathering) and might tend to have a more colorless gray bill (vs more brown-toned).


Applying those to the birds in the links in Tony's email, I would guess that the PA and VA birds are Glossy, and the Ohio and Arkansas birds are White-faced Ibis. Not to say that's what they are for sure, just to reinforce Tony's point that face pattern/eye color is not useful at this age, and it's incorrect to label them all Glossy.



Good Birding,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com








--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Mon Oct 9 2017 11:34 am
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hi all:


Actually, I had intended to touch on the "H" subject in my original post, as hybrids are relatively frequent in Colorado, Kansas, and Oklahoma; see


https://cobirds.org/CFO/Colora...


and


http://ebird.org/ebird/map/gxw... 17


Obviously, hybrids throw another huge monkey wrench into an already-difficult field-ID problem.


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Steven W. Cardiff
To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



Tony, Steve et al.-
Hybridization is also occurring and is probably increasing in frequency and expanding geographically, so beware. Adult hybrids are one thing, but identification of immatures to species or as hybrids is going to be problematic, especially in the south-central USA.


Steve Cardiff
LSU Museum of natural Science.



On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:07 AM, 'Steven Mlodinow' via eBird Regional Editors wrote:

Greetings


I somehow missed Tony's posting on this topic


He (or someone else) may have said this, but if the eye is red or the facial skin distinctly pink, which sometimes does happen, then ID as WF Ibis is easily done in birds sporting basic/formative plumage


Best Regards
Steve Mlodinow




-----Original Message-----
From: 'Tony Leukering' via eBird Regional Editors
To: ebird-regional-editors
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:04 am
Subject: [eBird Regional Editors] Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID





Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: David Sibley
To: Tony Leukering
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Mon, Oct 9, 2017 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



There are several features that might be useful for separating fall immature Ibises: White-faced generally has a more "moss-green" gloss on the back and wings (vs more blue-green on Glossy), White-faced has paler underparts (especially the tibia feathering) and might tend to have a more colorless gray bill (vs more brown-toned).


Applying those to the birds in the links in Tony's email, I would guess that the PA and VA birds are Glossy, and the Ohio and Arkansas birds are White-faced Ibis. Not to say that's what they are for sure, just to reinforce Tony's point that face pattern/eye color is not useful at this age, and it's incorrect to label them all Glossy.



Good Birding,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com








--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...





--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eBird Regional Editors" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ebird-regional-editors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Mon Oct 9 2017 9:51 am
From: sibleyguides AT gmail.com
 
There are several features that might be useful for separating fall
immature Ibises: White-faced generally has a more "moss-green" gloss on the
back and wings (vs more blue-green on Glossy), White-faced has paler
underparts (especially the tibia feathering) and might tend to have a more
colorless gray bill (vs more brown-toned).

Applying those to the birds in the links in Tony's email, I would guess
that the PA and VA birds are Glossy, and the Ohio and Arkansas birds are
White-faced Ibis. Not to say that's what they are for sure, just to
reinforce Tony's point that face pattern/eye color is not useful at this
age, and it's incorrect to label them all Glossy.

Good Birding,
David
sibleyguides@gmail.com
www.sibleyguides.com

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 22:53 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Thanks Peter! Very useful info.

What of the amount of white edgings on the outer rectrices? Is that a
reliable sexing characteristic, or no?

Noah

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:

> The key to identifying Solitary Vireos in this intermediate plumage is age
> - only dull first-year female Blue-headeds and bright adult male Cassin's
> usually can overlap here. I'd judge this a young bird based on the brown
> primary coverts contrasting with the replaced newer greater coverts, as
> best appreciated in the last four photos, and the rather thin rectrices, as
> seen in some of the earlier images. So I would go with a first-fall female
> BHVI. The throat/auricular contrast is a good mark for most birds but can
> overlap in these two species/age/sex groups, with some adult male CAVIs
> having relatively sharp contrasts and some young female BHVIs somewhat
> indistinct ones. Side and flank color may discriminate more birds, and the
> yellowish flanks here (in the sun-lit photos) is brighter than that of a
> few adult male Cassin's I've seen this fall.
>
> I can't say that I see a lot of seasonal variation in the plumages in
> these, within each species/age/sex class. There is little or no
> prealternate molt, except for tertials in some birds. Fresh fall birds,
> especially adults, can be slightly veiled with olive feather edging, which
> can wear off by spring, revealing a brighter appearance for mate seletcion.
> But overall the differences are slight and not directly comparable between
> the seasons..
>
> Peter
>
>
> At 11:25 AM 10/8/2017, David Irons wrote:
>
>> Noah,
>>
>>
>> I can't offer a strong opinion on this bird, but want point out that by
>> this date vireos in the "Solitary" complex should have recently molted and
>> ought to be in comparatively fresh plumage. At this season a Cassin's
>> should be at the apex of plumage contrast and brightness, perhaps
>> presenting a more Blue-headed Vireo like appearance. Along those same
>> lines, a Blue-headed should not be looking "drab" or duller than normal in
>> October. These species are at their dullest during the breeding season and
>> through the summer before they go through their annual prebasic molt. Given
>> the shading in these images, it's hard to get a good feel for the throat to
>> hood contrast or how dark and blue the head is, but this bird doesn't seem
>> to be outside the bounds of the brightest and most contrasty Cassin's that
>> I've seen.
>>
>>
>> Dave Irons
>>
>> Beaverton, OR
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
>> semirelicta@GMAIL.COM>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 6:05 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
>>
>> This drab and getting-late Solitary Vireo was at Wilderness Park in
>> Lincoln, Nebraska, yesterday afternoon. Blue-headed is a regular migrant
>> here; Cassin's would be exceedingly rare.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>>
>> I was initially unimpressed with this bird as a Cassin's candidate when
>> looking at the photos on back-of-camera because the head looks rather
>> dark,
>> but now that I've blown up the pics, I'm thinking this may well be a
>> Cassin's Vireo. There's no head/back contrast, with the back being grayer
>> and the head greener than I'm used to seeing on Blue-headeds in Nebraska.
>> The cheek/throat contrast is hard to discern but in at least some of the
>> photos, it doesn't look as strong as usual for Blue-headed. Additionally,
>> the dark eye-to-bill stripe looks darker than the rest of the head.
>>
>> What do you all think?
>>
>> Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE)
>> semirelicta@gmail.com
>> 510-967-2179
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 22:21 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
The key to identifying Solitary Vireos in this intermediate plumage
is age - only dull first-year female Blue-headeds and bright adult
male Cassin's usually can overlap here. I'd judge this a young bird
based on the brown primary coverts contrasting with the replaced
newer greater coverts, as best appreciated in the last four photos,
and the rather thin rectrices, as seen in some of the earlier images.
So I would go with a first-fall female BHVI. The throat/auricular
contrast is a good mark for most birds but can overlap in these two
species/age/sex groups, with some adult male CAVIs having relatively
sharp contrasts and some young female BHVIs somewhat indistinct ones.
Side and flank color may discriminate more birds, and the yellowish
flanks here (in the sun-lit photos) is brighter than that of a few
adult male Cassin's I've seen this fall.

I can't say that I see a lot of seasonal variation in the plumages in
these, within each species/age/sex class. There is little or no
prealternate molt, except for tertials in some birds. Fresh fall
birds, especially adults, can be slightly veiled with olive feather
edging, which can wear off by spring, revealing a brighter appearance
for mate seletcion. But overall the differences are slight and not
directly comparable between the seasons..

Peter

At 11:25 AM 10/8/2017, David Irons wrote:
>Noah,
>
>
>I can't offer a strong opinion on this bird, but want point out that
>by this date vireos in the "Solitary" complex should have recently
>molted and ought to be in comparatively fresh plumage. At this
>season a Cassin's should be at the apex of plumage contrast and
>brightness, perhaps presenting a more Blue-headed Vireo like
>appearance. Along those same lines, a Blue-headed should not be
>looking "drab" or duller than normal in October. These species are
>at their dullest during the breeding season and through the summer
>before they go through their annual prebasic molt. Given the shading
>in these images, it's hard to get a good feel for the throat to hood
>contrast or how dark and blue the head is, but this bird doesn't
>seem to be outside the bounds of the brightest and most contrasty
>Cassin's that I've seen.
>
>
>Dave Irons
>
>Beaverton, OR
>
>
>________________________________
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> on behalf of Noah Arthur
>Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 6:05 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
>
>This drab and getting-late Solitary Vireo was at Wilderness Park in
>Lincoln, Nebraska, yesterday afternoon. Blue-headed is a regular migrant
>here; Cassin's would be exceedingly rare.
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>I was initially unimpressed with this bird as a Cassin's candidate when
>looking at the photos on back-of-camera because the head looks rather dark,
>but now that I've blown up the pics, I'm thinking this may well be a
>Cassin's Vireo. There's no head/back contrast, with the back being grayer
>and the head greener than I'm used to seeing on Blue-headeds in Nebraska.
>The cheek/throat contrast is hard to discern but in at least some of the
>photos, it doesn't look as strong as usual for Blue-headed. Additionally,
>the dark eye-to-bill stripe looks darker than the rest of the head.
>
>What do you all think?
>
>Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE)
>semirelicta@gmail.com
>510-967-2179
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 21:37 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Noah:


Plegadis are fairly readily aged in fall, given good looks and light (see Pyle 2008). Juvs have very dull plumage, usually sport anomalous (can it be anomalous if it's usual?) patches of white somewhere on the head/neck and often have pale ("pinkish") bills. Then, the extent of rufous on the wing can provide excellent cues to age/plumage.


All Oct pix:


Juv: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Subad: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Adult: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


You do own Pyle (1997, 2008), right?


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





-----Original Message-----
From: Noah Arthur
To: Tony Leukering ; BIRDWG01
Sent: Sun, Oct 8, 2017 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Juvenile Plegadis ID



Can they even be aged in fall? If not, then none of them are identifiable unless they're obvious pink-faced/red-eyed adult WFIB...


Noah



On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Tony Leukering <000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:

Hi all (sorry for cross-posting):


While I have been pondering this subject for a while, now, a recent request from Indiana got me to do the photo research that I've been promising myself. It has been my understanding for decades that juvenile Plegadis in the US and Canada are not definitively identifiable by plumage and soft-parts coloration. At least, until the latter starts changing in fall/winter in White-faced (WFIB). Even then, birds cannot be identified as Glossy, as onset of color change in soft-parts coloration is quite individually variable.


So, unless I have missed some recent work that suggests otherwise, I am fairly dismayed by the number of juvenile Plegadis identified as Glossy (GLIB) throughout the US and Canada. While I can understand reports of such on the East Coast, even condone such where the species is particularly common, I have a very difficult time accepting such away from the coast. WFIB is of fairly frequent occurrence in the Lower 48 states and in the Great Lakes portion of southern Canada.


http://ebird.org/ebird/map/whf... 17


With that in mind, I would think that observers and eBird reviewers would be cautious about individual juvenile Plegadis with GLIB-like face patterns. That is because juvenile White-faced Ibis also exhibit such face patterns, as illustrated by these birds:



California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Nevada: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...




Due to the fact that GLIB is an extreme rarity in both Nevada and California, it seems unlikely that the above birds are referable to that species.


So, what is one to make of these birds?


Pennsylvania: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Arkansas: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Virginia: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Ohio: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Ohio (same bird): https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...




Pyle (2008) states: "Juv-HY White-faced Ibis... can sometimes show a very indistinct pale line [sic] but the loral skin quickly becomes unmarked and tinged reddish." Unfortunately, he does not give any parameters for "quickly." However, considering that the above-linked photos of juvenile birds from the West were taken in September (3) and October, it seems certain that such birds could easily cause problems -- and possibly be misidentified -- in the East.


Unless I am way off base above, I suggest more-extensive use of the "Glossy/White-faced Ibis" entry in eBird.


Lit Cited
Pyle, P. 2008. Identification Guide to North American Birds, part II. Slate Creek Press, Bolinas, CA.


Respectfully,


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 21:27 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
Noah et al,

Most of the juvs here at Yolo Bypass (near Sacramento, CA) have red eyes
already. If the juvs have dark eyes, I pass them by. If an adult has dark
eyes (in good sunlight), I get excited-- but that only happens once every
few years here.



On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:

> Can they even be aged in fall? If not, then none of them are identifiable
> unless they're obvious pink-faced/red-eyed adult WFIB...
>
> Noah
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Tony Leukering <
> 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi all (sorry for cross-posting):
> >
> >
> > While I have been pondering this subject for a while, now, a recent
> > request from Indiana got me to do the photo research that I've been
> > promising myself. It has been my understanding for decades that juvenile
> > Plegadis in the US and Canada are not definitively identifiable by
> plumage
> > and soft-parts coloration. At least, until the latter starts changing in
> > fall/winter in White-faced (WFIB). Even then, birds cannot be identified
> > as Glossy, as onset of color change in soft-parts coloration is quite
> > individually variable.
> >
> >
> > So, unless I have missed some recent work that suggests otherwise, I am
> > fairly dismayed by the number of juvenile Plegadis identified as Glossy
> > (GLIB) throughout the US and Canada. While I can understand reports of
> > such on the East Coast, even condone such where the species is
> particularly
> > common, I have a very difficult time accepting such away from the coast.
> > WFIB is of fairly frequent occurrence in the Lower 48 states and in the
> > Great Lakes portion of southern Canada.
> >
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/map/whf...
> > minY=&env.maxX=&env.maxY=&zhse&gpse&ev=Z&mr=112&
> > bmo=1emo&yr=al&byr00&eyr 17
> >
> >
> > With that in mind, I would think that observers and eBird reviewers would
> > be cautious about individual juvenile Plegadis with GLIB-like face
> > patterns. That is because juvenile White-faced Ibis also exhibit such
> face
> > patterns, as illustrated by these birds:
> >
> >
> >
> > California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 265350860.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > Nevada: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 265350860.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Due to the fact that GLIB is an extreme rarity in both Nevada and
> > California, it seems unlikely that the above birds are referable to that
> > species.
> >
> >
> > So, what is one to make of these birds?
> >
> >
> > Pennsylvania: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> .
> > 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > Arkansas: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 232515292.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > Virginia: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 265423564.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > Ohio: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > 265423564.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> > Ohio (same bird): https://macaulaylibrary.org/
> > asset/69028881#_ga=264620268.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pyle (2008) states: "Juv-HY White-faced Ibis... can sometimes show a
> very
> > indistinct pale line [sic] but the loral skin quickly becomes unmarked
> and
> > tinged reddish." Unfortunately, he does not give any parameters for
> > "quickly." However, considering that the above-linked photos of juvenile
> > birds from the West were taken in September (3) and October, it seems
> > certain that such birds could easily cause problems -- and possibly be
> > misidentified -- in the East.
> >
> >
> > Unless I am way off base above, I suggest more-extensive use of the
> > "Glossy/White-faced Ibis" entry in eBird.
> >
> >
> > Lit Cited
> > Pyle, P. 2008. Identification Guide to North American Birds, part II.
> > Slate Creek Press, Bolinas, CA.
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> > Tony Leukering
> > currently Guymon, OK
> > ID columns
> >
> > eBird blog
> > Photo quiz
> > Photos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 21:19 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Can they even be aged in fall? If not, then none of them are identifiable
unless they're obvious pink-faced/red-eyed adult WFIB...

Noah

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 6:49 PM, Tony Leukering <
000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request@listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:

> Hi all (sorry for cross-posting):
>
>
> While I have been pondering this subject for a while, now, a recent
> request from Indiana got me to do the photo research that I've been
> promising myself. It has been my understanding for decades that juvenile
> Plegadis in the US and Canada are not definitively identifiable by plumage
> and soft-parts coloration. At least, until the latter starts changing in
> fall/winter in White-faced (WFIB). Even then, birds cannot be identified
> as Glossy, as onset of color change in soft-parts coloration is quite
> individually variable.
>
>
> So, unless I have missed some recent work that suggests otherwise, I am
> fairly dismayed by the number of juvenile Plegadis identified as Glossy
> (GLIB) throughout the US and Canada. While I can understand reports of
> such on the East Coast, even condone such where the species is particularly
> common, I have a very difficult time accepting such away from the coast.
> WFIB is of fairly frequent occurrence in the Lower 48 states and in the
> Great Lakes portion of southern Canada.
>
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/map/whf...
> minY=&env.maxX=&env.maxY=&zhlse&gplse&ev=Z&mr=112&
> bmo=1emo&yr=al&byr00&eyr 17
>
>
> With that in mind, I would think that observers and eBird reviewers would
> be cautious about individual juvenile Plegadis with GLIB-like face
> patterns. That is because juvenile White-faced Ibis also exhibit such face
> patterns, as illustrated by these birds:
>
>
>
> California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 265350860.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> Nevada: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 265350860.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
>
>
> Due to the fact that GLIB is an extreme rarity in both Nevada and
> California, it seems unlikely that the above birds are referable to that
> species.
>
>
> So, what is one to make of these birds?
>
>
> Pennsylvania: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> Arkansas: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 232515292.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> Virginia: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 265423564.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> Ohio: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> 265423564.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
> Ohio (same bird): https://macaulaylibrary.org/
> asset/69028881#_ga=264620268.25890241.1507509707-334541348.1399337695
>
>
>
>
> Pyle (2008) states: "Juv-HY White-faced Ibis... can sometimes show a very
> indistinct pale line [sic] but the loral skin quickly becomes unmarked and
> tinged reddish." Unfortunately, he does not give any parameters for
> "quickly." However, considering that the above-linked photos of juvenile
> birds from the West were taken in September (3) and October, it seems
> certain that such birds could easily cause problems -- and possibly be
> misidentified -- in the East.
>
>
> Unless I am way off base above, I suggest more-extensive use of the
> "Glossy/White-faced Ibis" entry in eBird.
>
>
> Lit Cited
> Pyle, P. 2008. Identification Guide to North American Birds, part II.
> Slate Creek Press, Bolinas, CA.
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
> Tony
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> currently Guymon, OK
> ID columns
>
> eBird blog
> Photo quiz
> Photos
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Juvenile Plegadis ID
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 20:50 pm
From: 000000b797e8dae8-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hi all (sorry for cross-posting):


While I have been pondering this subject for a while, now, a recent request from Indiana got me to do the photo research that I've been promising myself. It has been my understanding for decades that juvenile Plegadis in the US and Canada are not definitively identifiable by plumage and soft-parts coloration. At least, until the latter starts changing in fall/winter in White-faced (WFIB). Even then, birds cannot be identified as Glossy, as onset of color change in soft-parts coloration is quite individually variable.


So, unless I have missed some recent work that suggests otherwise, I am fairly dismayed by the number of juvenile Plegadis identified as Glossy (GLIB) throughout the US and Canada. While I can understand reports of such on the East Coast, even condone such where the species is particularly common, I have a very difficult time accepting such away from the coast. WFIB is of fairly frequent occurrence in the Lower 48 states and in the Great Lakes portion of southern Canada.


http://ebird.org/ebird/map/whf... 17


With that in mind, I would think that observers and eBird reviewers would be cautious about individual juvenile Plegadis with GLIB-like face patterns. That is because juvenile White-faced Ibis also exhibit such face patterns, as illustrated by these birds:



California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


California: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Nevada: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...




Due to the fact that GLIB is an extreme rarity in both Nevada and California, it seems unlikely that the above birds are referable to that species.


So, what is one to make of these birds?


Pennsylvania: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Arkansas: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Virginia: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Ohio: https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...


Ohio (same bird): https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...




Pyle (2008) states: "Juv-HY White-faced Ibis... can sometimes show a very indistinct pale line [sic] but the loral skin quickly becomes unmarked and tinged reddish." Unfortunately, he does not give any parameters for "quickly." However, considering that the above-linked photos of juvenile birds from the West were taken in September (3) and October, it seems certain that such birds could easily cause problems -- and possibly be misidentified -- in the East.


Unless I am way off base above, I suggest more-extensive use of the "Glossy/White-faced Ibis" entry in eBird.


Lit Cited
Pyle, P. 2008. Identification Guide to North American Birds, part II. Slate Creek Press, Bolinas, CA.


Respectfully,


Tony


Tony Leukering
currently Guymon, OK
ID columns

eBird blog
Photo quiz
Photos





Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 19:04 pm
From: LLSDIRONS AT msn.com
 
Bruce,


I would also call this a Least and lean away from Dusky for essentially all the reasons put forward by Avery Bartels. I would add that the bill seems a bit too broad at the base for a Dusky giving it a more triangular and stubby look. Additionally, Dusky typically shows a more conspicuous and extensive pale supraloral area than what I see on this bird.


Dave Irons

Beaverton, OR


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Avery Bartels
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 10:47 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland

Hi Bruce,


For me this is a Least. The shape of the bird doesn't jive for Dusky, as the tail looks too short, head looks too large and it lacks the longer, more slender appearance of a Dusky. In addition the upperparts seem more olivey/brown than I would expect from a Dusky, even on a Juv (as this bird is).


Cheers,


Avery Bartels

British Columbia, CA


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bruce Mactavish
Sent: October 8, 2017 7:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland

On 5 Oct 2017 I came across an empidonax flycatcher near Cape Race in the
southeastern corner of Newfoundland. I initially identified it as an Alder
in haste and then began taking as many photos as I could before it blew away
in the wind. After looking at the pictures on computer the short primary
projection and bill not looking so long, weakened my confidence in the
identification. I sent some pictures to a few birders who had far more
experience with empidonax flycatchers than I living in a basically One
Horse (Yellow-belly Flycatcher) Province. The answers came back mixed and
included the possibility of Dusky Flycatcher. With the identification still
up for grabs I am posting the pictures on my blog site and look forward to
any ideas. Note that any species of flycatcher would be very unusual at the
location and the time of year.

http://brucemactavish1.blogspo...
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iz8F...

The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding Blog
brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
Took the day off work to do some warblering in the alders of Biscay Bay and Powles Head. By 10:40 the slowness of the morning was starting to take its toll on my ...



[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iz8F...

The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding Blog
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iz8F...

The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding Blog
brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
Took the day off work to do some warblering in the alders of Biscay Bay and Powles Head. By 10:40 the slowness of the morning was starting to take its toll on my ...



brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
Took the day off work to do some warblering in the alders of Biscay Bay and Powles Head. By 10:40 the slowness of the morning was starting to take its toll on my ...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 18:36 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Bruce,

I agree this looks fine for Least. In addition to those marks noted
by Avery, the wings are blacker and with more contrasting edging than
is found in western Empidonax, the bill looks stout and triangular,
and the outer webs of the outer rectrices lack the white edges found
in Dusky and Hammond's.It's a first-fall bird by the fresh plumage
(adults molt on the winter grounds) and molt limit in the greater
coverts, the inner 4-5 feathers replaced.

Peter

At 03:47 PM 10/8/2017, Avery Bartels wrote:
>Hi Bruce,
>
>
>For me this is a Least. The shape of the bird doesn't jive for
>Dusky, as the tail looks too short, head looks too large and it
>lacks the longer, more slender appearance of a Dusky. In addition
>the upperparts seem more olivey/brown than I would expect from a
>Dusky, even on a Juv (as this bird is).
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Avery Bartels
>
>British Columbia, CA
>
>
>________________________________
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> on behalf of Bruce Mactavish
>
>Sent: October 8, 2017 7:31 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland
>
>On 5 Oct 2017 I came across an empidonax flycatcher near Cape Race in the
>southeastern corner of Newfoundland. I initially identified it as an Alder
>in haste and then began taking as many photos as I could before it blew away
>in the wind. After looking at the pictures on computer the short primary
>projection and bill not looking so long, weakened my confidence in the
>identification. I sent some pictures to a few birders who had far more
>experience with empidonax flycatchers than I living in a basically One
>Horse (Yellow-belly Flycatcher) Province. The answers came back mixed and
>included the possibility of Dusky Flycatcher. With the identification still
>up for grabs I am posting the pictures on my blog site and look forward to
>any ideas. Note that any species of flycatcher would be very unusual at the
>location and the time of year.
>
>http://brucemactavish1.blogspo...
>[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iz8F...
>
>The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding
>Blog
>brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
>Took the day off work to do some warblering in the alders of Biscay
>Bay and Powles Head. By 10:40 the slowness of the morning was
>starting to take its toll on my ...
>
>
>
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 17:47 pm
From: averybartels AT hotmail.com
 
Hi Bruce,


For me this is a Least. The shape of the bird doesn't jive for Dusky, as the tail looks too short, head looks too large and it lacks the longer, more slender appearance of a Dusky. In addition the upperparts seem more olivey/brown than I would expect from a Dusky, even on a Juv (as this bird is).


Cheers,


Avery Bartels

British Columbia, CA


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bruce Mactavish
Sent: October 8, 2017 7:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland

On 5 Oct 2017 I came across an empidonax flycatcher near Cape Race in the
southeastern corner of Newfoundland. I initially identified it as an Alder
in haste and then began taking as many photos as I could before it blew away
in the wind. After looking at the pictures on computer the short primary
projection and bill not looking so long, weakened my confidence in the
identification. I sent some pictures to a few birders who had far more
experience with empidonax flycatchers than I living in a basically One
Horse (Yellow-belly Flycatcher) Province. The answers came back mixed and
included the possibility of Dusky Flycatcher. With the identification still
up for grabs I am posting the pictures on my blog site and look forward to
any ideas. Note that any species of flycatcher would be very unusual at the
location and the time of year.

http://brucemactavish1.blogspo...
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iz8F...

The Bruce Mactavish Newfoundland Birding Blog
brucemactavish1.blogspot.ca
Took the day off work to do some warblering in the alders of Biscay Bay and Powles Head. By 10:40 the slowness of the morning was starting to take its toll on my ...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Least vs Dusky Flycatcher in Newfoundland
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 17:31 pm
From: bruce.mactavish1 AT nf.sympatico.ca
 
On 5 Oct 2017 I came across an empidonax flycatcher near Cape Race in the
southeastern corner of Newfoundland. I initially identified it as an Alder
in haste and then began taking as many photos as I could before it blew away
in the wind. After looking at the pictures on computer the short primary
projection and bill not looking so long, weakened my confidence in the
identification. I sent some pictures to a few birders who had far more
experience with empidonax flycatchers than I living in a basically One
Horse (Yellow-belly Flycatcher) Province. The answers came back mixed and
included the possibility of Dusky Flycatcher. With the identification still
up for grabs I am posting the pictures on my blog site and look forward to
any ideas. Note that any species of flycatcher would be very unusual at the
location and the time of year.

http://brucemactavish1.blogspo...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 13:26 pm
From: LLSDIRONS AT msn.com
 
Noah,


I can't offer a strong opinion on this bird, but want point out that by this date vireos in the "Solitary" complex should have recently molted and ought to be in comparatively fresh plumage. At this season a Cassin's should be at the apex of plumage contrast and brightness, perhaps presenting a more Blue-headed Vireo like appearance. Along those same lines, a Blue-headed should not be looking "drab" or duller than normal in October. These species are at their dullest during the breeding season and through the summer before they go through their annual prebasic molt. Given the shading in these images, it's hard to get a good feel for the throat to hood contrast or how dark and blue the head is, but this bird doesn't seem to be outside the bounds of the brightest and most contrasty Cassin's that I've seen.


Dave Irons

Beaverton, OR


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Noah Arthur
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 6:05 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska

This drab and getting-late Solitary Vireo was at Wilderness Park in
Lincoln, Nebraska, yesterday afternoon. Blue-headed is a regular migrant
here; Cassin's would be exceedingly rare.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I was initially unimpressed with this bird as a Cassin's candidate when
looking at the photos on back-of-camera because the head looks rather dark,
but now that I've blown up the pics, I'm thinking this may well be a
Cassin's Vireo. There's no head/back contrast, with the back being grayer
and the head greener than I'm used to seeing on Blue-headeds in Nebraska.
The cheek/throat contrast is hard to discern but in at least some of the
photos, it doesn't look as strong as usual for Blue-headed. Additionally,
the dark eye-to-bill stripe looks darker than the rest of the head.

What do you all think?

Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE)
semirelicta@gmail.com
510-967-2179

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Cassin's vs. Blue-headed in Nebraska
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 13:05 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
This drab and getting-late Solitary Vireo was at Wilderness Park in
Lincoln, Nebraska, yesterday afternoon. Blue-headed is a regular migrant
here; Cassin's would be exceedingly rare.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I was initially unimpressed with this bird as a Cassin's candidate when
looking at the photos on back-of-camera because the head looks rather dark,
but now that I've blown up the pics, I'm thinking this may well be a
Cassin's Vireo. There's no head/back contrast, with the back being grayer
and the head greener than I'm used to seeing on Blue-headeds in Nebraska.
The cheek/throat contrast is hard to discern but in at least some of the
photos, it doesn't look as strong as usual for Blue-headed. Additionally,
the dark eye-to-bill stripe looks darker than the rest of the head.

What do you all think?

Noah Arthur (Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE)
semirelicta@gmail.com
510-967-2179

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Snowy? Cattle? Little Blue? All of the above? Clarity desired in Oregon....
Date: Sun Oct 8 2017 9:00 am
From: 00000425a88ba075-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Juvenile Cattle Egrets have dark soft parts that quickly become paler with age.
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...

Floyd HayesProfessor of Biology


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, October 7, 2017, 9:46 PM, Jay Withgott wrote:

Hello All -- An odd egret at Malheur NWR in Oregon has been the subject of debate for some weeks now. I don't believe this group has been consulted yet, and we could honestly use some additional input at this point. Given nicknames like the "Hegret" and the "Cattlish Egret," it has been variously conjectured to be a juvenile pure Snowy, a Snowy x Cattle, a Cattle x Little Blue, Something Else, or an Aberrant Individual of X Species. It shows darkish coloration on a number of wing and tail feathers, and even a bit at the back of the neck, but not at the primary tips where an imm. LIttle Blue would show dark color. Its behavior to my eye did not definitively rule out any particular species. I have my own thoughts, but let's go straight to some of my photos and videos (from 18 Sept), posted here.....
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0n6...


And among various photos from other observers, some good ones (from 25 Sept) can be viewed here:
ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S39396264.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Jay Withgott
Portland, OR

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Withgott
Author, Environment: The Science behind the Stories,
Essential Environment, and
Environment: Your World, Your Turn
Portland, Oregon
withgott@comcast.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Snowy? Cattle? Little Blue? All of the above? Clarity desired in Oregon....
Date: Sat Oct 7 2017 23:46 pm
From: withgott AT comcast.net
 
Hello All --  An odd egret at Malheur NWR in Oregon has been the subject of debate for some weeks now.  I don't believe this group has been consulted yet, and we could honestly use some additional input at this point.  Given nicknames like the "Hegret" and the "Cattlish Egret," it has been variously conjectured to be a juvenile pure Snowy, a Snowy x Cattle, a Cattle x Little Blue, Something Else, or an Aberrant Individual of X Species.  It shows darkish coloration on a number of wing and tail feathers, and even a bit at the back of the neck, but not at the primary tips where an imm. LIttle Blue would show dark color.  Its behavior to my eye did not definitively rule out any particular species.  I have my own thoughts, but let's go straight to some of my photos and videos (from 18 Sept), posted here.....
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0n6...


And among various photos from other observers, some good ones (from 25 Sept) can be viewed here:
ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist/S39396264.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Jay Withgott
Portland, OR

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Withgott
Author, Environment: The Science behind the Stories,
Essential Environment, and
Environment: Your World, Your Turn
Portland, Oregon
withgott@comcast.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: David Dortch
Date: Fri Oct 6 2017 1:09 am
From: DPratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Hi everyone:

I am trying to track down a birder and photographer named David Dortch, who used to live in Alabama, but I think then moved to Florida. That's where the trail grows cold. It's important because in 2010 he photographed an unmistakable Wedge-rumped Storm Petrel from a cruise ship near the equator in the central Pacific, which would constitute a first record for the region. He sent the photos to a contact in Hawaii, who posted them to the HawaiiBirding listserv. The photos are well documented as to time and location, and ought to be published, but I need the photographer's permission as well as his confirmation of the metadata. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Doug Pratt
Cary, NC

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Mon Oct 2 2017 14:41 pm
From: 000003fc6e73b46b-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Robert,

Thanks, I was having the same problem.

I think it's clear it's a Semipalmated Sandpiper rather than a Red-necked Stint, based on the palmations, well-defined supercilium and anchor marks in the scapulars, etc.

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Lewis
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 12:26 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [BIRDWG01] New Photos - RE: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona

I couldn™t use your link. Here is a better one:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Bob Lewis


> On Oct 2, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Jason A Wilder wrote:
>
> The bird showed very well this morning. I got many additional pictures that should be useful. A few clearly show three primary tips beyond the tertials, plus additional angles on the bird in good light. I do have pics of the feet. I'll let experts on palmation patterns weigh in on whether or not it is conclusive. Pics here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm5nKQko
>
> Jason
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
> From: Andrew Baksh [mailto:birdingdude@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:14 AM
> To: Jason A Wilder
> Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Excellent photos and well documented for review.
>
> There are several things that rule out Stint for me. I'll cite the bill and tertials. In several of your photos, the bill on this bird is more in line with Semipalmated Sandpiper than a Stint.
>
> A few of your head on shots show that bulbous tip expected in SESAs whereas a Stint would be more finely tapered. In one shot where the bird is looking left (on my phone) the bill is dead on for SESA showing that typical structure.
>
> On the plumage, the tertials lack the warm rufous tones I would expect to see on a Stint even with some wear.
>
> Looking forward to reading what others have to say on this bird.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Mon Oct 2 2017 14:25 pm
From: 000003c10156bb77-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
I couldn™t use your link.  Here is a better one:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Bob Lewis


> On Oct 2, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Jason A Wilder wrote:
>
> The bird showed very well this morning. I got many additional pictures that should be useful. A few clearly show three primary tips beyond the tertials, plus additional angles on the bird in good light. I do have pics of the feet. I'll let experts on palmation patterns weigh in on whether or not it is conclusive. Pics here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm5nKQko
>
> Jason
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
> From: Andrew Baksh [mailto:birdingdude@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:14 AM
> To: Jason A Wilder
> Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> Excellent photos and well documented for review.
>
> There are several things that rule out Stint for me. I'll cite the bill and tertials. In several of your photos, the bill on this bird is more in line with Semipalmated Sandpiper than a Stint.
>
> A few of your head on shots show that bulbous tip expected in SESAs whereas a Stint would be more finely tapered. In one shot where the bird is looking left (on my phone) the bill is dead on for SESA showing that typical structure.
>
> On the plumage, the tertials lack the warm rufous tones I would expect to see on a Stint even with some wear.
>
> Looking forward to reading what others have to say on this bird.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Mon Oct 2 2017 13:14 pm
From: Jason.Wilder AT nau.edu
 
The bird showed very well this morning. I got many additional pictures that should be useful. A few clearly show three primary tips beyond the tertials, plus additional angles on the bird in good light. I do have pics of the feet. I'll let experts on palmation patterns weigh in on whether or not it is conclusive. Pics here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm5nKQko

Jason
Flagstaff, AZ

From: Andrew Baksh [mailto:birdingdude@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 4:14 AM
To: Jason A Wilder
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona

Hi Jason,

Excellent photos and well documented for review.

There are several things that rule out Stint for me. I'll cite the bill and tertials. In several of your photos, the bill on this bird is more in line with Semipalmated Sandpiper than a Stint.

A few of your head on shots show that bulbous tip expected in SESAs whereas a Stint would be more finely tapered. In one shot where the bird is looking left (on my phone) the bill is dead on for SESA showing that typical structure.

On the plumage, the tertials lack the warm rufous tones I would expect to see on a Stint even with some wear.

Looking forward to reading what others have to say on this bird.
--------
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick Douglass


Swift as the wind
—Quiet as the forest
Conquer like the fire
Steady as the mountain
Sun Tzu The Art of War

(__/)
(= '.'=)
(") _ (")
Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device!

Andrew Baksh
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

On Oct 1, 2017, at 11:57 PM, Jason A Wilder > wrote:
A black-legged Calidris sandpiper was in Northern AZ today with a short and straight bill that seems to rule out Western Sandpiper. The subject bird has rather warm rufous tones above in the mantle and scapulars and a bill that seems quite finely tapered for Semipalmated. I am curious on opinions as to whether the bird is a bright Semipalmated or perhaps a Red-necked Stint.

Pictures here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm3JMrWd

Thanks,
Jason Wilder
Flagstaff, AZ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Mon Oct 2 2017 6:14 am
From: birdingdude AT gmail.com
 
Hi Jason,

Excellent photos and well documented for review.

There are several things that rule out Stint for me. I'll cite the bill and tertials. In several of your photos, the bill on this bird is more in line with Semipalmated Sandpiper than a Stint.

A few of your head on shots show that bulbous tip expected in SESAs whereas a Stint would be more finely tapered. In one shot where the bird is looking left (on my phone) the bill is dead on for SESA showing that typical structure.

On the plumage, the tertials lack the warm rufous tones I would expect to see on a Stint even with some wear.

Looking forward to reading what others have to say on this bird.

--------
"I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence." ~ Frederick Douglass

Swift as the wind
Quiet as the forest
onquer like the fire
Steady as the mountain
Sun Tzu The Art of War

> (__/)
> (= '.'=)
> (") _ (")
> Sent from somewhere in the field using my mobile device!

Andrew Baksh
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

> On Oct 1, 2017, at 11:57 PM, Jason A Wilder wrote:
>
> A black-legged Calidris sandpiper was in Northern AZ today with a short and straight bill that seems to rule out Western Sandpiper. The subject bird has rather warm rufous tones above in the mantle and scapulars and a bill that seems quite finely tapered for Semipalmated. I am curious on opinions as to whether the bird is a bright Semipalmated or perhaps a Red-necked Stint.
>
> Pictures here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm3JMrWd
>
> Thanks,
> Jason Wilder
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: IBWO evidence published
Date: Mon Oct 2 2017 4:24 am
From: mike AT fishcrow.com
 
Since the announcement of the rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker in 2005, there have been many posts on this forum by critics. It is only fair that both sides should have an opportunity to present their cases, and I thank the listowner for allowing posts about evidence. All of my evidence for the persistence of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker has now been published in the following papers:
Paper #1 discusses audio recordings and some of the evidence.
http://fishcrow.com/JASAv129p1...
http://ftp.aip.org/epaps/journ...
Paper #2 discusses conservation issues and all of the evidence.
http://www.heliyon.com/article...
Paper #3 (which came out today) discusses double knocks, wingbeats, and some of the evidence.
http://www.nature.com/articles...
This work was recommended for publication by experts in ornithology, conservation, avian flight, and bioacoustics. The evidence consists of video footage of several events involving flights, behaviors, field marks, and other characteristics that are consistent with the Ivory-billed Woodpecker but no other species. There was a claim on this forum that the evidence has been refuted, but nobody has identified any flaws in the analysis or proposed a plausible alternative explanation for any of the events in the videos, which were obtained during encounters with birds that were identified in the field as Ivory-billed Woodpeckers at sites where these birds had been reported.
Anyone who wishes to get at the truth would be wise to ignore unsupported opinions, study the evidence, and come to their own conclusions. Presentations of the evidence in lecture format may be accessed at my website. I am about to depart for a month at sea in the Arctic and won™t be available for questions, but the answers are contained in those papers.
Mike CollinsAlexandria, Virginiahttp://fishcrow.com



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Sun Oct 1 2017 23:01 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I've only just begun (this year) to make any headway with learning juvenile
black-legged peep ID, but my impression is that this bird is oddly-plumaged
but the primary projection might be too short for a stint...?

Noah

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Jason A Wilder wrote:

> A black-legged Calidris sandpiper was in Northern AZ today with a short
> and straight bill that seems to rule out Western Sandpiper. The subject
> bird has rather warm rufous tones above in the mantle and scapulars and a
> bill that seems quite finely tapered for Semipalmated. I am curious on
> opinions as to whether the bird is a bright Semipalmated or perhaps a
> Red-necked Stint.
>
> Pictures here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm3JMrWd
>
> Thanks,
> Jason Wilder
> Flagstaff, AZ
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Calidris sandpiper in Northern Arizona
Date: Sun Oct 1 2017 22:57 pm
From: Jason.Wilder AT nau.edu
 
A black-legged Calidris sandpiper was in Northern AZ today with a short and straight bill that seems to rule out Western Sandpiper. The subject bird has rather warm rufous tones above in the mantle and scapulars and a bill that seems quite finely tapered for Semipalmated. I am curious on opinions as to whether the bird is a bright Semipalmated or perhaps a Red-necked Stint.

Pictures here: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm3JMrWd

Thanks,
Jason Wilder
Flagstaff, AZ

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: NO SIGHTING – RFI birding Barrow, Nome
Date: Sun Oct 1 2017 14:27 pm
From: StarrettDA AT hotmail.com
 
Birding colleagues,

Apologies for cross-listing. In checking off a bucket list item, I am looking at driving the Alaska Highway next summer (Mid-June). Would of course do some birding along the way. But more importantly, we are thinking of short trips to Barrow and Nome after we get there. Probably a whole day at each. Does anyone have suggestions for birding in either place? We don’t need a tour or guide necessarily, though wouldn’t be opposed. Mostly I am wondering about places to bird in either place. In both we can get a local rental vehicle. We have about 30 target lifers for the trip; 2/3 of them are going to be on the coast or lake. I see eBird postings and hotspots which gives me some ideas, but if anyone has direct experience and advice/suggestions it is much appreciated.

Thank you,

Dave Starrett


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Starrett
Columbia, MO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Sun Oct 1 2017 6:41 am
From: ktmullarney AT gmail.com
 
I have good experience of Cape Verde, Cory's and Scopoli's Shearwaters,
though that is not to say I couldn't do with seeing more of all three! This
latest candidate Cape Verde Shearwater has a lot in common with several
previous candidates that have been discussed on ID-Frontiers and elsewhere,
mainly in that the proposed identification relies heavily on *a few poor
quality photos of a bird that is strongly backlit*. In these circumstances,
it is much more difficult to reliably determine the colour and 'weight' (as
in thickness/thinness) of the bill, arguably the most useful single feature
when it comes to identifying a lone Cape Verde Shearwater that cannot be
compared directly with either Cory's or Scopoli's.

I would advise great caution in interpreting images like the ones available
in this case as it is precisely this combination of strongly backlit
conditions and lack of sharpness that can create an impression of a bill
that lacks the characteristic yellowish colour of Cory's/Scopoli's and
appears slimmer than in Cory's, the latter due to the 'burned out' upper
contour of the bill effectively disappearing into the light background.

I don't see anything pro-Cape Verde Shearwater in the relative wing-width
and tail-length of the bird in question. I'm not sure, but when I enlarge
the side-on image and look closely at the bill I sense that there is a hint
of yellowish toward the base and that the apparent dullness is due to
strong shadow. Importantly, as Julian pointed out very early on in this
discussion, the photo that shows the undersurface of the far wing reveals
whitish inner webs on the outermost primaries; this feature is much more
usual in Scopoli's Shearwater than in the other two taxa, though it does
seem to occur to a limited extent in *borealis *Cory's. In conclusion, I
consider there to be no real evidence that this bird is anything other than
the expected Cory's/Scopoli's Shearwater.

Anyone interested in seeing a lovely series of photos of Cape Verde and
Cory's Shearwaters together should have a look at Gorka Ocio's blog, here:

http://gorkaocio.blogspot.ie/2...

Killian Mullarney


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Defos du rau Pierre <
pierre.defosdurau@oncfs.gouv.fr> wrote:

> Hello
>
> Having seen numerous individuals of all 3 taxa at sea, I agree with Ricard
> in particular with regards to the ratio width/length of wings and to colour
> and shape of the bill. Indeed if the bill was thin & olive as initially
> noted by Will and as the photos seem to show, then I would argue that Cape
> Verde should be considered.
> Best regards
>
> -------
> Pierre Defos du Rau
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de [ Ricard Gutirrez ]
> Envoy : dimanche 1 octobre 2017 01:01
> : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater
>
> I've never seen Cape Verde's at sea but considerable numbers of Cory's -
> borealis-(Azores, Madeira, Canaries, Atlantic Spain) and Scopoli's
> -diomedea- (Mediterranean, also in the Atlantic at the Canaries). The quiz
> bird looks too longer tailed. Tails seems to me rather rhomboid, unlike
> either Cory's or Scopoli's. The relationship width/length of wings also
> fits more edwarsii and, if you check the photos from rarebirdspain.net,
> it certainly seems to be a slimmer bird compared with both diomedea and the
> bulkier and heavier borealis (Cory's). The bill is also rather slim
> compared with any borealis. I have not studied the edwarsii underwing so I
> cannot properly comment on the subject. Regarding the separation
> diomedea/borealis on the basis of underwing, we're currently dealing with a
> paper on the subject that -if nothing happens- will appear in British
> Birds, due 2018. It will get deeper into the initial thoughts I published
> many years ago in Dutch Birding.
> Best wishes
>
> Ricard Gutirrez
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de jrhough1@snet.net
> Enviado el: sbado, 30 de septiembre de 2017 22:47
> Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater
>
> Hi Richard,
> I understand your point on the structure. Having never seen Cape Verde, I
> was struck by the under primary pattern that appeared to be Scopoli's-like
> (diomedea), rather than Cory's (borealis). That seemed to be the one
> feature that seemed at odds with my memory of the literature, so I wonder
> what your thoughts are on that aspect of the bird?
> Regards,
> Julian
>
>
> Sent from my LG Phoenix 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
> ------ Original message------From: [ Ricard Gutirrez ]Date: Sat, Sep 30,
> 2017 1:10 PMTo: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;Cc: Subject:Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd
> Calconectris shearwater Hello I would not rule out Cape Verde either
> despite bill colour is difficult to assess in the enclosed photos. Anyway
> it does not look strikingly yellow.
> Structure, on the other hand looks fine
> See these photos from Cape Verde's found in the Canary Islands
> http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
> http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
>
> Best wishes
>
> Ricard Gutirrez
> www.rarebirdspain.net
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de Defos du rau Pierre Enviado el:
> martes, 26 de septiembre de 2017 11:01
> Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater
>
> Hello
>
> While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed
> bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in
> immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed
> individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker
> white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape
> Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most
> importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and
> thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the
> bill looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out
> Cape Verde Shearwater.
> best
>
> -------
> Pierre Defos du Rau
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough Envoy : lundi
> 25 septembre 2017 21:30 : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Objet : Re:
> [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater
>
> Will,
>
>
>
> Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source
> of scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the
> Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast
> Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's
> Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.
>
>
>
>
> The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are
> generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more
> white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis
> have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called
> "tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and
> birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should
> they be assigned??
>
>
>
> Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:
>
>
>
> http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
> shearwater-variation.ht
> ml
>
> https://naturescapeimages.word...
>
>
>
> So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that
> is a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other
> images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its
> underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer
> build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a
> capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different
> from this bird.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Julian
>
> Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com
>
> On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor
> wrote:
>
>
> Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
> Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout
> the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a
> longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more
> heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough
> experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out
> Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of
> the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much
> thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first
> bird.
>
>
> http://www.livingworldphotogra...
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Will Chatfield-Taylor
>
> Palm City, FL
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Sun Oct 1 2017 1:19 am
From: pierre.defosdurau AT oncfs.gouv.fr
 
Hello

Having seen numerous individuals of all 3 taxa at sea, I agree with Ricard in particular with regards to the ratio width/length of wings and to colour and shape of the bill. Indeed if the bill was thin & olive as initially noted by Will and as the photos seem to show, then I would argue that Cape Verde should be considered.
Best regards

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de [ Ricard Gutirrez ]
Envoy: dimanche 1 octobre 2017 01:01
: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Objet: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

I've never seen Cape Verde's at sea but considerable numbers of Cory's - borealis-(Azores, Madeira, Canaries, Atlantic Spain) and Scopoli's -diomedea- (Mediterranean, also in the Atlantic at the Canaries). The quiz bird looks too longer tailed. Tails seems to me rather rhomboid, unlike either Cory's or Scopoli's. The relationship width/length of wings also fits more edwarsii and, if you check the photos from rarebirdspain.net, it certainly seems to be a slimmer bird compared with both diomedea and the bulkier and heavier borealis (Cory's). The bill is also rather slim compared with any borealis. I have not studied the edwarsii underwing so I cannot properly comment on the subject. Regarding the separation diomedea/borealis on the basis of underwing, we're currently dealing with a paper on the subject that -if nothing happens- will appear in British Birds, due 2018. It will get deeper into the initial thoughts I published many years ago in Dutch Birding.
Best wishes

Ricard Gutirrez


-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de jrhough1@snet.net
Enviado el: sbado, 30 de septiembre de 2017 22:47
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hi Richard,
I understand your point on the structure. Having never seen Cape Verde, I was struck by the under primary pattern that appeared to be Scopoli's-like (diomedea), rather than Cory's (borealis). That seemed to be the one feature that seemed at odds with my memory of the literature, so I wonder what your thoughts are on that aspect of the bird?
Regards,
Julian


Sent from my LG Phoenix 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
------ Original message------From: [ Ricard Gutirrez ]Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2017 1:10 PMTo: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;Cc: Subject:Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater Hello I would not rule out Cape Verde either despite bill colour is difficult to assess in the enclosed photos. Anyway it does not look strikingly yellow.
Structure, on the other hand looks fine
See these photos from Cape Verde's found in the Canary Islands http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...

Best wishes

Ricard Gutirrez
www.rarebirdspain.net



-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de Defos du rau Pierre Enviado el: martes, 26 de septiembre de 2017 11:01
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hello

While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the bill looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out Cape Verde Shearwater.
best

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough Envoy : lundi
25 septembre 2017 21:30 : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Will,



Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.




The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called "tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
ml

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that is a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor
wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Sat Sep 30 2017 18:01 pm
From: rgutierrez AT gutarb.jazztel.es
 
I've never seen Cape Verde's at sea but considerable numbers of Cory's - borealis-(Azores, Madeira, Canaries, Atlantic Spain) and Scopoli's -diomedea- (Mediterranean, also in the Atlantic at the Canaries). The quiz bird looks too longer tailed. Tails seems to me rather rhomboid, unlike either Cory's or Scopoli's. The relationship width/length of wings also fits more edwarsii and, if you check the photos from rarebirdspain.net, it certainly seems to be a slimmer bird compared with both diomedea and the bulkier and heavier borealis (Cory's). The bill is also rather slim compared with any borealis. I have not studied the edwarsii underwing so I cannot properly comment on the subject. Regarding the separation diomedea/borealis on the basis of underwing, we're currently dealing with a paper on the subject that -if nothing happens- will appear in British Birds, due 2018. It will get deeper into the initial thoughts I published many years ago in Dutch Birding. 
Best wishes

Ricard Gutirrez


-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de jrhough1@snet.net
Enviado el: sbado, 30 de septiembre de 2017 22:47
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hi Richard,
I understand your point on the structure. Having never seen Cape Verde, I was struck by the under primary pattern that appeared to be Scopoli's-like (diomedea), rather than Cory's (borealis). That seemed to be the one feature that seemed at odds with my memory of the literature, so I wonder what your thoughts are on that aspect of the bird?
Regards,
Julian


Sent from my LG Phoenix 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
------ Original message------From: [ Ricard Gutirrez ]Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2017 1:10 PMTo: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;Cc: Subject:Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater Hello I would not rule out Cape Verde either despite bill colour is difficult to assess in the enclosed photos. Anyway it does not look strikingly yellow.
Structure, on the other hand looks fine
See these photos from Cape Verde's found in the Canary Islands http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...

Best wishes

Ricard Gutirrez
www.rarebirdspain.net



-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de Defos du rau Pierre Enviado el: martes, 26 de septiembre de 2017 11:01
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hello

While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the bill looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out Cape Verde Shearwater.
best

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough Envoy : lundi
25 septembre 2017 21:30 : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Will,



Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.




The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called "tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
ml

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that is a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519 www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor
wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Sat Sep 30 2017 15:47 pm
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
Hi Richard,
I understand your point on the structure. Having never seen Cape Verde, I was struck by the under primary pattern that appeared to be Scopoli's-like (diomedea), rather than Cory's (borealis). That seemed to be the one feature that seemed at odds with my memory of the literature, so I wonder what your thoughts are on that aspect of the bird?
Regards,
Julian


Sent from my LG Phoenix 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
------ Original message------From: [ Ricard Gutirrez ]Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2017 1:10 PMTo: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU;Cc: Subject:Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater
Hello
I would not rule out Cape Verde either despite bill colour is difficult to
assess in the enclosed photos. Anyway it does not look strikingly yellow.
Structure, on the other hand looks fine
See these photos from Cape Verde's found in the Canary Islands
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...

Best wishes

Ricard Gutirrez
www.rarebirdspain.net



-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de Defos du rau Pierre
Enviado el: martes, 26 de septiembre de 2017 11:01
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hello

While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed
bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in
immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed
individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker
white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape
Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most
importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and
thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the bill
looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out Cape
Verde Shearwater.
best

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough Envoy: lundi
25 septembre 2017 21:30 : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Objet: Re: [BIRDWG01]
Odd Calconectris shearwater

Will,



Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of
scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the
Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast
Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's
Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.




The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are
generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more
white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis
have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called
"tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and
birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should
they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
ml

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that is
a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other
images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its
underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer
build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a
capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different
from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor
wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout the
day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a longer
tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more heavily
marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough experience
with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out Cape Verde
Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of the bird
and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much thicker,
yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Sat Sep 30 2017 12:10 pm
From: rgutierrez AT gutarb.jazztel.es
 
Hello
I would not rule out Cape Verde either despite bill colour is difficult to
assess in the enclosed photos. Anyway it does not look strikingly yellow.
Structure, on the other hand looks fine
See these photos from Cape Verde's found in the Canary Islands
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...
http://www.rarebirdspain.net/a...

Best wishes

Ricard Gutirez
www.rarebirdspain.net



-----Mensaje original-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] En nombre de Defos du rau Pierre
Enviado el: martes, 26 de septiembre de 2017 11:01
Para: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Asunto: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Hello

While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed
bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in
immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed
individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker
white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape
Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most
importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and
thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the bill
looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out Cape
Verde Shearwater.
best

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough Envoy lundi
25 septembre 2017 21:30 : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU Objet: Re: [BIRDWG01]
Odd Calconectris shearwater

Will,



Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of
scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the
Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast
Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's
Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.




The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are
generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more
white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis
have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called
"tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and
birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should
they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
ml

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that is
a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other
images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its
underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer
build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a
capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different
from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor
wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout the
day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a longer
tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more heavily
marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough experience
with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out Cape Verde
Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of the bird
and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much thicker,
yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Tue Sep 26 2017 4:01 am
From: pierre.defosdurau AT oncfs.gouv.fr
 
Hello

While I would be prudent with the underwing pattern of the thicker-billed bird (but then clearly not a Cape Verde), I would have difficulties in immediately discarding Cape Verde shearwater for the thinner-billed individual. Was this bird on average darker above? Did you notice a thicker white eye-ring? The underwing primary pattern seems OK to me for a Cape Verde (though admittedly not on the darker side of the range). Most importantly, I have difficulties in assessing the correct darkness and thinness of the bill due to not optimal photo quality but if indeed the bill looked that thin and dark, then I would find difficult to rule out Cape Verde Shearwater.
best

-------
Pierre Defos du Rau


-----Message d'origine-----
De: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] De la part de julian hough
Envoy lundi 25 septembre 2017 21:30
: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Objet: Re: [BIRDWG01] Odd Calconectris shearwater

Will,



Cory's, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli's Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.



The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli's are generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli's. Borealis have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called "tweeners", that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and birder's are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here's some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled "Cory's" has an underwing that is a better fit for Scopoli's. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli's based on its underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon'sslightly smaller, slimmer build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory's,and thus different from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout
the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a
longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more
heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough
experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out
Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of
the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much
thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first
bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Mon Sep 25 2017 14:31 pm
From: jrhough1 AT snet.net
 
Will,



Cory™s, and the races thatoccur off the US east coast, have been a source of scrutiny for birders in recentyears. The nominate diomedea breeds in the Mediterranean, while the larger,bulkier borealis breeds in the northeast Atlantic. The nominate form iscolloquially referred to as Scopoli™s Shearwater but it is the larger, morehulking borealis that is most numerous.



The main differences toutedin the literature are that Scopoli™s are generally smaller and slimmer, withthe main point of distinction being more white intruding down the bases of theouter primaries in Scopoli™s. Borealis have more restricted white here, butthere are a few birds, so-called tweeners, that seem to have a smaller amountof white in this area and birder™s are unsure about what to do about these and towhich race should they be assigned??



Lots of questions, but here™s some recent currentmusings on this issue:



http://www.shorebirder.com/201...

https://naturescapeimages.word...



So, based on your photos, the one labelled Cory™s has an underwing that is a better fit for Scopoli™s. The bird inquestion, if I assume the other images refer to that individual, also appearsto be a Scopoli™s based on its underwing pattern, and would fit with that taxon™sslightly smaller, slimmer build. I think Cape Verde can be ruled out, sincefrom memory, they have a capped look and an underwing similar to borealis Cory™s,and thus different from this bird.



Regards,



Julian

Julian Hough New Haven, CT 06519www.naturescapeimages.wordpress.com

On Monday, September 25, 2017 2:31 PM, Will Chatfield-Taylor wrote:


Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout
the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a
longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more
heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough
experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out
Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of
the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much
thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first
bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Odd Calconectris shearwater
Date: Mon Sep 25 2017 13:31 pm
From: wchatfieldtaylor AT gmail.com
 
Could I get opinions on this Cory's type shearwater seen on a pelagic off
Miami yesterday (9/24/2017). We saw several definitive Cory's throughout
the day, but this first bird seems to have a thinner, olive bill, and a
longer tail with a distinct white band. The head also looks capped and more
heavily marked on the sides than the other birds. I don't have enough
experience with Cory's to say for sure what it is, but I want to rule out
Cape Verde Shearwater as a possibility. Here's the link two three photos of
the bird and one definite Cory's later in the day. That bird had a much
thicker, yellow bill and much less streaking on the sides than the first
bird.


http://www.livingworldphotogra...


Thanks

Will Chatfield-Taylor

Palm City, FL

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler-Another Response
Date: Mon Sep 25 2017 7:32 am
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Here's another response (below) that I received, for the group's consideration, on the question of whether my warbler was Bay-breasted or Blackpoll.

I would appreciate people's thoughts on this input.

Thanks.

Bates

---
"The overall brightness of the back, more open-faced look, stout-looking bill are all pro-Bay- breasted.


One feature that will often clinch it, and i believe it is visible on your bird is the innermost two greater converts are boldly tipped white like the rest...in Blackpool they are diffuse and duller. What this amounts to is a longer, lower wingbar in Bay-breast.Check it out..it is easier to gauge than color and streaking density."


Get Outlook for Android


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler-Responses I Have Received
Date: Sun Sep 24 2017 15:40 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Several folks have asked what feedback I have received from people on this group.  Well, in the order they were received, the responses are listed below.  I have removed ID info. to protect the guilty.  ˜


Presently, there seems to be a difference of opinion. I will have some more thoughts of my own later. Thanks for the responses.


Bates E.


Here's what I have received:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Some Blackpolls only have paler (flesh/yellowish) color on the soles of their feet - I can't zoom in enough on Flickr to see, but you probably can with the original photos. The dark legs aren't necessarily a deal-breaker for Blackpoll. Then again, if it's feet are truly black I think I'd want to call it a first fall female Bay-breasted.



The leg color is diagnostic for Bay-breasted.



Blackpoll. Very streaky. Leg color is not the best mark to go by, I have found.



No dark transocular line or pale supercillium to me
means Bay-breasted Warbler, Blackpoll virtually always
shows these features. I also get a hint of bayish on
the sides, and the very limited very diffuse streaking
is OK as well for Bay-breasted, Blackpolls is more distinct.



I would lean Bay-breasted on this bird. It seems greener overall and dingier below than what I've typically experienced with HY Blackpoll. The wingbars seem broad and the streaking below (if you can call it that) is quite diffuse. This bird seems buffy down the flanks and in general the underparts seem a bit too uniform in color for a Blackpoll. I think of Blackpolls as showing more yellow to whitish contrast between the breast and the belly and vent, along with being more streaked on the breast.



I would suggest Bay-breasted as well.





Bates, I only saw one response which was for Bay-breasted. I think this is a Blackpoll, although it does have a mix of features which makes it tough. But the black eye line, streaking underneath, limited buff in the flanks and gleaming white under tail coverts all point to Blackpoll for me. Sometimes the yellow on the legs/feet is just the soles, which can™t be seen in these photos.



Tough bird, Bay-breasted and Blackpoll have some fall birds that almost fall right in the middle like that! Did you see the bird Maureen posted from Gibson Co on the Tennessee Birding page? It was very similar to yours overall, they can be tricky! She took a lot of photos of her bird luckily, I don't think she knew it might be a Blackpoll at the time, she just couldn't quite figure it out. Several shots do show the yellow on feet and back of legs, as well as somewhat distinct streaking on breast and yellowish of breast coming down to flanks contrasting with white undertail. Overall, pretty similar to your bird though!





________________________________
From: Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Mystery Warbler


I found this bird today in the Cumberland Mts., northwest of Knoxville, TN. Bay-breasted or Blackpoll? I have convinced myself (sorta) that it's Blackpoll, except for the leg color. ˜


Any thoughts? Corrections?


Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee


https://photos.google.com/shar...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler
Date: Sun Sep 24 2017 10:14 am
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Thanks to everyone who responded. This has been very instructive and points up the limitations of working solely from field guides.

Bates Estabrooks

Get Outlook for Android

________________________________
From: Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:55:14 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Mystery Warbler


I found this bird today in the Cumberland Mts., northwest of Knoxville, TN. Bay-breasted or Blackpoll? I have convinced myself (sorta) that it's Blackpoll, except for the leg color. ˜


Any thoughts? Corrections?


Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee


https://photos.google.com/shar...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler
Date: Sat Sep 23 2017 23:10 pm
From: LLSDIRONS AT msn.com
 
Bates,


I would lean Bay-breasted on this bird. It seems greener overall and dingier below than what I've typically experienced with HY Blackpoll. The wingbars seem broad and the streaking below (if you can call it that) is quite diffuse. This bird seems buffy down the flanks and in general the underparts seem a bit too uniform in color for a Blackpoll. I think of Blackpolls as showing more yellow to whitish contrast between the breast and the belly and vent, along with being more streaked on the breast.


Dave Irons

Portland, OR


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 8:55 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Warbler

I found this bird today in the Cumberland Mts., northwest of Knoxville, TN. Bay-breasted or Blackpoll? I have convinced myself (sorta) that it's Blackpoll, except for the leg color. ˜


Any thoughts? Corrections?


Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee


https://photos.google.com/shar...
[https://lh3.googleusercontent....

Cumberland Mts. Warbler
photos.google.com
4 new photos added to shared album




Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Mystery Warbler
Date: Sat Sep 23 2017 15:55 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
I found this bird today in the Cumberland Mts., northwest of Knoxville, TN.  Bay-breasted or Blackpoll?  I have convinced myself (sorta) that it's Blackpoll, except for the leg color.  ˜


Any thoughts? Corrections?


Thanks.


Bates Estabrooks

Tennessee


https://photos.google.com/shar...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Wisconsin Jaeger (trying again)
Date: Fri Sep 22 2017 16:55 pm
From: kevinmclaughlin05 AT gmail.com
 
Hi Nick. Great effort on your part as I find jaegers, especially juveniles,
to be fascinating, and for over four decades, if I may date myself. Some
excellent photos there I should add. There is a discussion on the Facebook
group "Advanced Birding ID" today with comments from myself and others,
including Cameron Cox and Steve Arena................Kevin.

P.S. As the photos are so good, I will continue to study them. If you need
any formal comments from me, don't hesitate to ask. I am curious as to how
many accepted records there are for LTJ from your state and from
Minnesota.....

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Nick Anich <
00000417805c5fbb-dmarc-request@listserv.ksu.edu> wrote:

> Sorry, it looks like the listserv/yahoo killed the formatting. Let me see
> if I can get it to not munch the links.
> To the best of my knowledge, all of these are photos of the bird in
> question:
> Here are Kevin's 5:
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> Here are some other closeups:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> album-72157686926943804/
> space
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> album-72157686926943804/
> space
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> album-72157686926943804/
> space
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> album-72157686926943804/
>
> What really throws people, is seeing this bird next to other known
> jaegers, quite big for a Long-tailed
> Here it is in front of a Parasitic:
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> Here it is with a light-morph juv LT:
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> album-72157686926943804/
> And finally, here are a couple crushing closeups from another checklist
> that didn't get posted yet:
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> space
> https://download.ams.birds.cor...
> Nick
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Wisconsin Jaeger (trying again)
Date: Fri Sep 22 2017 16:36 pm
From: 00000417805c5fbb-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Sorry, it looks like the listserv/yahoo killed the formatting. Let me see if I can get it to not munch the links.
To the best of my knowledge, all of these are photos of the bird in question:
Here are Kevin's 5:
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Here are some other closeups:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
space
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
space
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
space
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

What really throws people, is seeing this bird next to other known jaegers, quite big for a Long-tailed
Here it is in front of a Parasitic:
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Here it is with a light-morph juv LT:
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
And finally, here are a couple crushing closeups from another checklist that didn't get posted yet:
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
space
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Nick

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Wisconsin jaeger
Date: Fri Sep 22 2017 14:00 pm
From: 00000417805c5fbb-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
To the best of my knowledge, all of these are photos of the bird in question:
Here are Kevin's 5:https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Here are some other closeups:https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
What really throws people, is seeing this bird next to other known jaegers, quite big for a Long-tailed
Here it is in front of a Parasitic:https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Here it is with a light-morph juv LT:https://download.ams.birds.cor...
And finally, here are a couple crushing closeups from another checklist that didn't get posted yet:
https://download.ams.birds.cor...
Nick

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


American Birding Podcast





ABA RBA



ABA's FREE Birder's Guide. Get the most recent issue now >>



If you live nearby, or are travelling in the area, come visit the ABA Headquarters in Delaware City. Beginning this spring we will be having bird walks, heron watches and evening cruises, right from our front porch!

Click here to view the full calender, and register for events >>



Get Flight Calls, the ABA newsletter, delivered to your inbox each month...




Contact us.