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Updated on July 21, 2016, 3:45 pm

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21 Jul: @ 15:40:39 Re: I.d. of owl carcass? [Peter Wilkinson]
20 Jul: @ 21:52:33  I.d. of owl carcass? [Don Roberson]
20 Jul: @ 13:21:49 Re: Empid question [Jeff Gilligan]
20 Jul: @ 09:37:52 Re: Empid question [Steve Hampton]
20 Jul: @ 09:22:03  Empid question [Lethaby, Nick]
19 Jul: @ 18:47:42 Re: empid [Lethaby, Nick]
12 Jul: @ 21:46:44 Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton]
12 Jul: @ 13:39:41 Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Martin Reid]
12 Jul: @ 12:40:44 Re: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Peter Adriaens]
11 Jul: @ 22:16:02  Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA [Steve Hampton]
03 Jul: @ 13:23:14 Re: European Bird ID help [Luis Gordinho]
03 Jul: @ 13:00:35 Re: European Bird ID help [0000012475b985cd-dmarc-request]
03 Jul: @ 08:50:57  European Bird ID help [Franklin Haas]
29 Jun: @ 13:16:10 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Tim Keitt]
28 Jun: @ 18:53:25 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [whoffman]
28 Jun: @ 17:39:30 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur]
28 Jun: @ 16:06:55 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Collinson, Professor Jon M.]
28 Jun: @ 15:28:52 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur]
28 Jun: @ 04:14:37 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Collinson, Professor Jon M.]
28 Jun: @ 00:40:39 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur]
27 Jun: @ 22:11:44 Re: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Kai Schraml]
27 Jun: @ 18:08:10  Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear [Noah Arthur]



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Subject: I.d. of owl carcass?
Date: Thu Jul 21 2016 15:40 pm
From: pjw42 AT waitrose.com
 
Hi All,

It's a Long-eared Owl. Size, wing formula and look at those lovely
flashes on the outer primaries. The Slater Museum collection shows the
wing differences nicely.

Hoping I haven't missed something!

Peter
Herts, England

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 19:52 -0700, Don Roberson wrote:
> Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please look at the eBird checklist linking to this local post
>
> > I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were still intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
> > A Long-eard Owl indeed.
> > We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down the Pajaro River?
> >
>
> > Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> >
> > On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco > wrote:
> >
> >> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk.
> >> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
> >> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those could have been lost.
> >>
> >> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
> >> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
> >> LEOW 36"
> >> SEOW 38"
> >> BAOW 42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
> >> GHOW 44"
> >>
> >> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from shoreline but within high tide wrack line.
>
> This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms of the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
> with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but that is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic.
>
> Thanks, Don Roberson
> Monterey County records compiler
> http://creagrus.home.montereyb...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: I.d. of owl carcass?
Date: Wed Jul 20 2016 21:52 pm
From: creagrus AT montereybay.com
 
Do any of you have expertise in identifying an owl carcass? If so, please look at the eBird checklist linking to this local post

> I collected and cleaned the carcass this morning. The 'long ears' were still intact once cleaned. Photos of head, feet, wing, tail added to http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
> A Long-eard Owl indeed.=20
> We can only imagine what route it took. Lost and died at sea? Washed down the Pajaro River?
>

> Don Glasco. Seaside, CA
> =20
> On Jul 18, 2016, at 05:50 PM, Donald Glasco =
wrote:
>
>> We can narrow down to an owl. Lotsa feathers on head covering an all dark bill. I looked at many pics of feet; feet/claws match owl better than a hawk.
>> Clay Kempf suggests a Great-horned.
>> There was no suggestion of long ear feathers, ala LEOW or GHOW, but those could have been lost.
>>
>> I measured a wingspan of 36-37".
>> Per Sibley, wingspans of pertinent owls are
>> LEOW 36"
>> SEOW 38"
>> BAOW 42" (Note: beak color is white or pink or light yellow - not dark)
>> GHOW 44"
>>
>> No telling where it came from. If it was washed up from the bay, it would have died at sea north of Pajaro. Or it could have floated down the Pajaro River. It was within 10-15m of the south bank of the river, but 100-125 m from shoreline but within high tide wrack line.

This carcass collected near the high tide wrack at Pajaro River (which forms of the boundary of between Santa Cruz and Monterey Co.). The ebird list is
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
with photos. Collector identifies it as Long-eared -- and maybe it is (but that is rare here) -- while I cannot find a clear character to eliminate Great Horned Owl (common here). So I could use some actual expertise on the topic.

Thanks, Don Roberson
Monterey County records compiler
http://creagrus.home.montereyb...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Empid question
Date: Wed Jul 20 2016 13:21 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 
Yes - it looks like a Pacific slope to me as well.  I think of the eye-ring as being  American football-shaped.  The underparts color is fine for Pacific Slope.  The bill is long and the lower mandible is almost all yellow.

Jeff Gilligan

Oregon/Washington/Arizona


On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:37 AM, Steve Hampton wrote:

> It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
> ring. Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
>> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
>> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail@sbceo.org
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
>> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
>> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
>> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
>> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
>> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
>> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
>> pictures on my Flickr site:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>> http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F
>>>
>>
>> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
>> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
>> the photos beyond cropping.
>>
>> Hugh Ranson
>> Santa Barbara
>>
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Empid question
Date: Wed Jul 20 2016 9:37 am
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
It still seems like a Pac-slope to me, in color tone and teardrop eye
ring. Perhaps the dark bill tip is just aberrant.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:

> All,
>
> Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson.
> Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh.
> If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail@sbceo.org
>
>
> All,
>
> Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
> Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
> area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
> Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
> would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
> mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
> around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
> pictures on my Flickr site:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> http://www3.sbceo.org/web/services/go.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fzonetail%2F
> >
>
> I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
> to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
> the photos beyond cropping.
>
> Hugh Ranson
> Santa Barbara
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Empid question
Date: Wed Jul 20 2016 9:22 am
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
All,

Here is the correct version of the empid id request from Hugh Ranson. Apologies for the accidental post last night when I was replying to Hugh. If you want to reply direct to Hugh, his e-mail is: zonetail@sbceo.org


All,

Yesterday, 7/19/16, I came across a silent empidonax flycatcher in Rocky
Nook Park, coastal Santa Barbara County, California. It was in a riparian
area of oaks and sycamores. The expected species here is Pacific-slope
Flycatcher (they breed at this location), and any other empid in mid-July
would be quite unexpected. As soon as I saw the bird's dusky-tipped lower
mandible, I started taking pictures. Unfortunately the bird only stuck
around for 15 seconds or so before disappearing. I have included the best 4
pictures on my Flickr site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I have received several ideas as to the bird's identity but thought it best
to put the pictures out there for fresh discussion. I have not played with
the photos beyond cropping.

Hugh Ranson
Santa Barbara


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: empid
Date: Tue Jul 19 2016 18:47 pm
From: nlethaby AT ti.com
 
Sucks for you and your son. What a mess.

I was thinking on doing the hack up the Manzana this weekend but the weekend after would work too.

Would Thursday evening work? Aidan is going out to a movie that night so I am completely free (wife and daughter are in the UK).

Frontiers address is: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

On the bright side, it seems that there has been a terrorist attack, a cop ambush, or the cops shooting an unarmed person today.

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:22 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

Late in the day is fine with me.
A Manzana trip sounds like fun. My son has to have ear surgery (again!) soon, so my time is somewhat limited. Let me know when you might go.
I have posted to ID Frontiers before but can't remember how to do it. Any tips?
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
I can do this on weekend or a week day evening. I would prefer not do it at a time on the weekend that knocks out birding/butterfly activity, but am flexible on what your schedule allows.

I am kicking around doing a decent hike up the Manzana one day. Let me know if you are interested.

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:08 PM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Subject: Re: empid

One Vivid Dancer.
Perhaps this weekend on the photos? When is good for you?
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
What odes did you see?

Also when do you want to meet to do the photo caption review?

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:17 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: David Compton; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Just been out looking but with no success. It's already hot and the birds are very quiet. I did see one typical Pac-slope. By the way, there's a surprising amount of water in the creek bed. I left Bill Murdoch there looking.
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
I don’t agree that Least has a broad bill. Pac-slope has a much broader bill than Least. I am willing to buy that the angle of the photo is perhaps making the bill look narrower than it really is. Plumage-wise, the bird looks OK for a Pac-slope to me and odd for the others, but that could be a lighting effect.

From: David Compton [mailto:davcompton@verizon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:47 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Hugh Ranson; Peter Gaede; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

Bill looks long and narrow for Least to me, as Least bill is broad and not terribly long. Definitely not a Hammond's bill, and Hammond's/Dusky would be really strange for the date, as we all know. I agree with Peter. Certainly the eye ring looks Pac-slopish (to me) in the photos. Plumage looks mostly right, although the underparts are weird. I don't think the bill is so off for Pac-slope. I would say it's not a juv, as Hugh says.

I could be wrong, but I feel like there's enough to think it's the only expected empid at this location and date. If other photos or vocalizations prove otherwise, that will be great.

Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 19, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
I think the bill shape looks better for Least than Hammond’s or Dusky in that it is somewhat concave.

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:05 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

The tail is pretty worn which would indicate adult, I think.

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
The dingy appearance is Pac-slopish. I noticed on the photos seems to hint at spotting on the scapulars and was wondering if it might be a juv and that juvs could show a dusky bill tip.

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:48 AM
To: Lethaby, Nick
Cc: Peter Gaede; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: Re: empid

I will go look again this morning after I drop Nico off. Peter thinks it's a good fit for Pac Slope, but the dusky-tipped bill would surely be an anomaly for that species. The bill seems too long for Hammond's. More to come...
Hugh

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote:
I took another look at this and cannot decide what it is. The lighting on the photo is too poor to really understand the colors and the angle on the primary projection may be foreshortening it. I would like to see a more obvious white throat to jump firmly in the Least camp. I am pretty certain the bill is too narrow for a Pac-slope, in addition to the dark tip. We are surely in the Least/Hammond’s/Dusky zone.

From: Hugh Ranson [mailto:hranson@goleta.k12.ca.us]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 8:31 PM
To: Peter Gaede; Lethaby, Nick; Dave Compton; Wes Fritz
Subject: empid

Fellas,
I posted to sbcobirding but for some reason it hasn't appeared. Check out these photos of a briefly-seen and silent empid from Rocky Nook late this afternoon.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Hugh






Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
Date: Tue Jul 12 2016 21:46 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
Thanks all.

I've changed it to Pacific and added a few more pics to my eBird report
(including an undertail shot). See
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

This marks the 4th mid-summer golden-plover in Yolo County in as many
years. The other three were 2 Americans and 1 Pacific. They were all in
full (or nearly so) breeding plumage. Pics of them can be seen here:

American Golden-Plover
July 21, 2013
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

June 24, 2014
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

Pacific Golden-Plover
July 27, 2015
http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...


good birding,

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Martin Reid wrote:

> Dear Steve,
> I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
> Martin.
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton <
> stevechampton@GMAIL.COM > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento: http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
>


--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
Date: Tue Jul 12 2016 13:39 pm
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Dear Steve,
I am completely in line with Peter A. on this bird.
Martin.

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com



> On Jul 11, 2016, at Jul 11, 10:15 PM, Steve Hampton wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
> Sacramento: http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...
>
> I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
> 1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
> call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
> variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
> decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
> 2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
> makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
> intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
> this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
> the breast seemed very good for American.
> 3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
> American.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Steve Hampton
> Davis, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
Date: Tue Jul 12 2016 12:40 pm
From: 00000136671ecde4-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 



Subject: Golden-Plover near Sacramento, CA
Date: Mon Jul 11 2016 22:16 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
All,

Attached are several pics of a golden-plover found yesterday near
Sacramento: http://ebird.org/ebird/view/ch...

I've called it an American for these reasons, but seek further input:
1) It called several times, a soft "chirrip". I'm not familiar with either
call, but based on the various recordings at xeno-canto (and they are
variable), it seemed much closer in tone to American. The call was
decidedly soft, with a little warble in it, and not strident.
2) As can be seen, the bird is in active molt from summer to winter. This
makes evaluating the plumage difficult. Hayman et al. Shorebird guide shows
intermediate Am with white undertail and white down the flanks just like
this bird, thus mimicking Pacific attributes. The large bulge of white at
the breast seemed very good for American.
3) I thought the rather blocky head shape and short tibia seemed better for
American.

thanks,


--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: European Bird ID help
Date: Sun Jul 3 2016 13:23 pm
From: 00000125bf57f9cc-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
Hi Frank,
I agree with Lee Evans regarding birds 1 to 3. In my opinion, Bird 4 is probably a Bonelli's Warbler (Western BW, given place & date) but, like Lee said, it's better to consider this ID uncertain.
Cheers, Luís Gordinho

From: "0000012475b985cd-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Sunday, 3 July 2016, 19:00
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] European Bird ID help

In a message dated 03/07/2016 14:50:56 GMT Daylight Time, 
fhaasbirds@GMAIL.COM writes:

http://www.franklinhaas.com/Eu...
Hi Frank

Just had a quick look at your images

Bird 1 appears to be a WESTERN REED WARBLER

Bird 2 is a (WESTERN) BLACK KITE

Bird 3 is a juvenile COMMON STONECHAT

Bird 4 is unidentifiable without more information/better images

All the very best 

Lee

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at  LeeEvansBirding



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant,  Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
British  Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
Professional  Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking  News/Bird Information/Announcements -
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
Rare  Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western  Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items  For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local  Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire  Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire  Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds  of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham  Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html




Subject: European Bird ID help
Date: Sun Jul 3 2016 13:00 pm
From: 0000012475b985cd-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
In a message dated 03/07/2016 14:50:56 GMT Daylight Time,
fhaasbirds@GMAIL.COM writes:

http://www.franklinhaas.com/Eu...
Hi Frank

Just had a quick look at your images

Bird 1 appears to be a WESTERN REED WARBLER

Bird 2 is a (WESTERN) BLACK KITE

Bird 3 is a juvenile COMMON STONECHAT

Bird 4 is unidentifiable without more information/better images

All the very best

Lee

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
Western Palearctic Bird News -
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
Items For Sale or Exchange -
http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...

Local Websites
Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: European Bird ID help
Date: Sun Jul 3 2016 8:50 am
From: fhaasbirds AT gmail.com
 
We just returned from a two-week trip to Switzerland and France.

We encountered a few birds which we could not identify (two warblers, a
raptor, and a juvenile passerine).

They can be seen at http://www.franklinhaas.com/Eu...

Can anyone help identify these birds?

Thanks

Frank

--
Frank Haas

Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Wed Jun 29 2016 13:16 pm
From: tkeitt AT utexas.edu
 
http://www.keittlab.org/

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:

> Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video
> either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors
> interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the
> Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists,
> that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a
> very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very
> hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as
> misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual
> PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics...
>

Nothing against those involved but eyewitness testimony is notoriously
unreliable. We are complex creatures and sometimes we see what we want to
see. I believe this case is a truly fascinating lesson in psychology and
social dynamics. My impression is that many folks with entirely good
intentions came to believe something not true. Would not be the first time
in human history... ;-)

THK



>
> Noah
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but
> > there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the
> > Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential
> frames
> > of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the
> > Arkansas claimed IBWO. It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could
> have
> > been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in
> > fact was.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
> > m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
> >
> > Room 4.37
> > School of Medical Sciences
> > University of Aberdeen
> > Institute of Medical Sciences
> > Foresterhill
> > Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> > UK
> >
> > Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
> > Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want
> > my Telex too?
> > Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
> >
> > Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> >
> http://www.thenakedscientists....
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Noah Arthur
> > *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32
> > *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01@listserv.ksu.edu
> > *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
> >
> > The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
> > edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
> > that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
> > and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
> > Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
> > trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an
> aberrant
> > Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat,
> due
> > to feather wear.
> >
> > The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
> > can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
> > we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
> > well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges
> and
> > fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
> > SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
> > interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
> > various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
> > noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...
> >
> > Noah Arthur
> > Oakland, CA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> > m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >>
> >> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
> >> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
> >> patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill
> can
> >> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now old stuff, here
> >> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and
> here
> >> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
> >> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
> >>
> >> Room 4.37
> >> School of Medical Sciences
> >> University of Aberdeen
> >> Institute of Medical Sciences
> >> Foresterhill
> >> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> >> UK
> >>
> >> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
> >> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you
> >> want my Telex too?
> >> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
> >>
> >> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> >>
> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> >> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
> >> semirelicta@GMAIL.COM>
> >> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
> >> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
> >>
> >> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> >> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> >> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
> >>
> >> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> >> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite
> as
> >> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
> >> more
> >> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
> >>
> >> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> >> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It
> would
> >> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> >> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> >> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> >> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> >> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with
> white
> >> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
> >>
> >> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were
> misidentified.
> >> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out
> to
> >> be?
> >>
> >> Noah Arthur
> >> Oakland, CA
> >>
> >> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >>
> >>
> >> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> >> SC013683.
> >> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> >> SC013683.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> > SC013683.
> > Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> > SC013683.
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 18:53 pm
From: whoffman AT peak.org
 
Hi - 

I think we need to be careful about how we express views on this issue. Far too often since the Arkansas reports, arguments have included unnecessary denigration of the individuals making reports,and/or unnecessary adulation of the individuals critiquing reports.

IBWO has not been documented to universal satisfaction for several decades, and I think it is appropriate to say that claims of its occurrence are extraordinary, and therefore demand an extraordinary level of documentation. It is very appropriate to discuss whether a particular set of photos, video, recording, or other offered evidence meets the high standard of "extraordinary level of documentation," and whether the features proposed to distinguish it from a Pileated Woodpecker are ABSOLUTELY diagnostic. It is not so appropriate to turn the discussion into a referendum on the great skills, mediocre skills, irrational obsessions, etc. of the providers and/or critiquers of such evidence. This discussion in past years has gotten way too personal.

I would rather see people write (and justify their point) that the evidence does or does not meet the "extraordinary level" standard, without discussing the skills or lack thereof, of the information providers.

Wayne


From: "Noah Arthur"
To: "BIRDWG01"
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:39:16 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video
either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors
interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the
Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists,
that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a
very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very
hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as
misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual
PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics...

Noah

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:

> I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but
> there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the
> Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames
> of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the
> Arkansas claimed IBWO. It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have
> been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in
> fact was.
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
>
> Room 4.37
> School of Medical Sciences
> University of Aberdeen
> Institute of Medical Sciences
> Foresterhill
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> UK
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want
> my Telex too?
> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
>
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> http://www.thenakedscientists....
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Noah Arthur
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32
> *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01@listserv.ksu.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>
> The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
> edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
> that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
> and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
> Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
> trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant
> Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due
> to feather wear.
>
> The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
> can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
> we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
> well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and
> fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
> SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
> interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
> various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
> noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>>
>> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
>> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
>> patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can
>> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
>>
>>
>> Now old stuff, here
>> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and here
>> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
>> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
>>
>> Room 4.37
>> School of Medical Sciences
>> University of Aberdeen
>> Institute of Medical Sciences
>> Foresterhill
>> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
>> UK
>>
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you
>> want my Telex too?
>> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
>>
>> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
>> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
>> semirelicta@GMAIL.COM>
>> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
>> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>>
>> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
>> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
>> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>>
>> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
>> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
>> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
>> more
>> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>>
>> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
>> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
>> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
>> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
>> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
>> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
>> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
>> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>>
>> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
>> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
>> be?
>>
>> Noah Arthur
>> Oakland, CA
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
>> SC013683.
>> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
>> SC013683.
>>
>
>
>
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> SC013683.
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> SC013683.
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 17:39 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Yeah, I agree, I probably wouldn't argue strongly for the Luneau video
either way. It seems like very imperfect evidence, with some authors
interpreting it as 100% IBWO, others 100% PIWO. It's the
Arkansas sightings, reported by knowledgeable birders and ornithologists,
that have me convinced IBWO wasn't extinct as of 2005, or else there was a
very unusual PIWO kicking around the swamp fooling everyone. I have a very
hard time with just dismissing these people's sightings as
misidentifications, unless they were misidentifications of a highly unusual
PIWO that had multiple IBWO characteristics...

Noah

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:

> I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but
> there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the
> Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames
> of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the
> Arkansas claimed IBWO. It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have
> been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in
> fact was.
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
>
> Room 4.37
> School of Medical Sciences
> University of Aberdeen
> Institute of Medical Sciences
> Foresterhill
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> UK
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want
> my Telex too?
> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
>
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> http://www.thenakedscientists....
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Noah Arthur
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 21:28:32
> *To:* Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01@listserv.ksu.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>
> The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
> edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
> that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
> and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
> Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
> trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant
> Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due
> to feather wear.
>
> The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
> can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
> we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
> well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and
> fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
> SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
> interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
> various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
> noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>>
>> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
>> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
>> patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can
>> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
>>
>>
>> Now old stuff, here
>> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and here
>> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
>> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
>>
>> Room 4.37
>> School of Medical Sciences
>> University of Aberdeen
>> Institute of Medical Sciences
>> Foresterhill
>> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
>> UK
>>
>> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
>> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you
>> want my Telex too?
>> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
>>
>> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
>> http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
>> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur <
>> semirelicta@GMAIL.COM>
>> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
>> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>>
>> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
>> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
>> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>>
>> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
>> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
>> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
>> more
>> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>>
>> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
>> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
>> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
>> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
>> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
>> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
>> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
>> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>>
>> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
>> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
>> be?
>>
>> Noah Arthur
>> Oakland, CA
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>>
>> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
>> SC013683.
>> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
>> SC013683.
>>
>
>
>
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> SC013683.
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> SC013683.
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 16:06 pm
From: m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
 
I guess it's all a matter of interpretation of very imperfect data, but there are videos of Pileated Woodpecker with wingbeats as fast as the Luneau bird, and in my paper I published a sequence of 36 sequential frames of Pileated in flight that matched frame for frame 36 frames of the Arkansas claimed IBWO.  It's pretty clear that the Arkansas bird could have been a Pileated so the balance of probability is that that is what it in fact was.


Best wishes

Martin


---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex too?
Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists....
________________________________
From: Noah Arthur
Sent: 28 June 2016 21:28:32
To: Collinson, Professor Jon M.; BIRDWG01@listserv.ksu.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports, and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due to feather wear.

The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA





On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. wrote:

Hi All


Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.


Now old stuff, here http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and here http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...


Best wishes

Martin



---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex too?
Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/1784/


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Noah Arthur
Sent: 28 June 2016 00:07
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas cl?raichte ann an Alba, ?ir. SC013683.



The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas cl?raichte ann an Alba, ?ir. SC013683.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 15:28 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
The 2005/2006 Arkansas sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing
edges on the spread wing cannot be explained by normal Pileateds. Add to
that the fast, duck-like wingbeat described in some of the reports,
and you've got two strong strikes against the bird(s) being normal
Pileateds. Ivory-bill fits the bill for these birds, having both a white
trailing edge and a fast wingbeat. But what I'm wondering is if an aberrant
Pileated could have both the white secondaries AND the faster wingbeat, due
to feather wear.

The Arkansas video seems ambiguous to me; it's very poor quality and I
can't seem to tell if we ever see the bird's upperside. It seems like
we might be seeing the underside throughout the whole video. But the
well-described sightings of large woodpeckers with white trailing edges and
fast wingbeat in Arkansas have convinced me, at least, that there was
SOMETHING other than a typical Pileated out there... It would be very
interesting to see close-up photos of white-winged aberrant Pileateds at
various times of year, and see if their flight feathers ever look
noticeably more worn than those of typical birds...

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA





On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Collinson, Professor Jon M. <
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi All
>
>
> Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida
> Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage
> patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can
> easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.
>
>
> Now old stuff, here
> http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and here
> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
> m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk
>
> Room 4.37
> School of Medical Sciences
> University of Aberdeen
> Institute of Medical Sciences
> Foresterhill
> Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
> UK
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
> Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want
> my Telex too?
> Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385
>
> Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
> http://www.thenakedscientists....
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification <
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> on behalf of Noah Arthur >
> *Sent:* 28 June 2016 00:07
> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
>
> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>
> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>
> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>
> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
> be?
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>
> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No
> SC013683.
> Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clàraichte ann an Alba, Àir.
> SC013683.
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 4:14 am
From: m.collinson AT abdn.ac.uk
 
Hi All


Think it's pretty well accepted now that the Arkansas and Florida Ivory-billed sightings were misidentifications and that the plumage patterns recorded on video and fast wingbeats of the claimed Ivorybill can easily be matched by 'normal' Pileateds.


Now old stuff, here http://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.c... and here http://www.abdn.ac.uk/ims/prof...


Best wishes

Martin



---------------------------------------------------------------
J. Martin Collinson, Professor in Genetics
m.collinson@abdn.ac.uk

Room 4.37
School of Medical Sciences
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Medical Sciences
Foresterhill
Aberdeen AB25 2ZD
UK

Tel: +44 (0) 1224 437515
Fax: +44 (0) 1224 437465, but c'mon... Fax? seriously? Do you want my Telex too?
Mobile: +44 (0) 7572 055385

Aberdeen Clubfoot Consortium - Naked Scientist Interview.
http://www.thenakedscientists....


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Noah Arthur
Sent: 28 June 2016 00:07
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear

I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
Tha Oilthigh Obar Dheathain na charthannas clraichte ann an Alba, ir. SC013683.

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Tue Jun 28 2016 0:40 am
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Pretty tough to test, but if a white-winged Pileated could be found and
consistently re-found in the same area, then feather wear and wingbeat
speed could be thoroughly documented, with videos of the bird in flight
combined with close-up photos showing feather condition...

Noah

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Kai Schraml wrote:

> Interesting idea. How could such an idea be tested?
>
>
>
> > On 28 Jun 2016, at 9:07 am, Noah Arthur wrote:
> >
> > I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> > something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> > Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
> >
> > The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> > worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> > worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray
> more
> > quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
> >
> > What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> > occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> > make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> > secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> > reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> > while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> > result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with
> white
> > secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
> >
> > I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were
> misidentified.
> > But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out
> to
> > be?
> >
> > Noah Arthur
> > Oakland, CA
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Mon Jun 27 2016 22:11 pm
From: kaischraml AT gmail.com
 
Interesting idea. How could such an idea be tested?



> On 28 Jun 2016, at 9:07 am, Noah Arthur wrote:
>
> I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
> something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
> Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.
>
> The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
> worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
> worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
> quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).
>
> What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
> occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
> make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
> secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
> reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
> while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
> result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
> secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.
>
> I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
> But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
> be?
>
> Noah Arthur
> Oakland, CA
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdwg01.html



Subject: Ivory-bills, Iceland Gulls, and Feather Wear
Date: Mon Jun 27 2016 18:08 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I recently realized that my #1 favorite bird (Iceland Gull) might have
something interesting to tell me about my #2 favorite bird (Ivory-billed
Woodpecker), having to do with feather wear.

The flight feathers of large pale gulls such as Iceland become extremely
worn in late winter/spring, while dark-winged gulls don't become quite as
worn. This is because whitish feathers (lacking pigment) wear and fray more
quickly than dark feathers (with pigment).

What does this have to do with Ivory-bills? Well, we know there are
occasional aberrant Pileated Woodpeckers with white secondaries. It would
make sense that these secondaries would become more worn than the black
secondaries of typical individuals. And if they became worn enough to
reduce the bird's total wing area, it would likely flap its wings faster
while flying (I've seen this with crows missing secondaries). This would
result in the perfect Ivory-bill mimic -- a Pileated Woodpecker with white
secondaries and an unusually fast wingbeat.

I'm not saying I think the recent Ivory-bill sightings were misidentified.
But might wingbeat speed not be as diagnostic for IBWO as it's made out to
be?

Noah Arthur
Oakland, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


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