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Updated on October 15, 2020, 6:55 pm

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15 Oct: @ 18:41:18  dark hawk in Ithaca, NY [Kevin J. McGowan]
11 Oct: @ 09:36:06 Re: Guam gull ID link [Amar Ayyash]
11 Oct: @ 07:49:39 Re: Guam gull ID link [Nick Rossiter]
11 Oct: @ 04:53:37 Re: Guam gull ID link [Dick Newell]
11 Oct: @ 04:36:38 Re: Guam gull ID link [Colin Bradshaw]
11 Oct: @ 00:57:02 Re: Guam gull ID link [Dick Newell]
10 Oct: @ 18:03:02 Re: Guam gull ID link [Peter Pyle]
10 Oct: @ 17:47:47 Re: Guam gull ID link [David Irons]
10 Oct: @ 17:42:51 Re: Guam gull ID link [Amar Ayyash]
10 Oct: @ 17:37:04  Guam gull ID link [Doug Pratt]
10 Oct: @ 17:36:49  Guam gull ID [Doug Pratt]
02 Oct: @ 04:07:07 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Harvey Tomlinson]
30 Sep: @ 14:54:02 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Peter Pyle]
30 Sep: @ 11:47:46 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request]
30 Sep: @ 11:15:12 Re: Weird Cape May? [0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request]
30 Sep: @ 09:40:17 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Steve Hampton]
29 Sep: @ 21:09:04 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Mike V.A. Burrell]
29 Sep: @ 17:40:22 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Peter Pyle]
29 Sep: @ 16:52:40 Re: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Nick Lethaby]
29 Sep: @ 14:54:20 Re: Weird Cape May? [Bates Estabrooks]
29 Sep: @ 12:24:05  Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage [Mike V.A. Burrell]
29 Sep: @ 12:06:35 Re: Weird Cape May? [KEVIN KARLSON]
29 Sep: @ 10:39:53 Re: Weird Cape May? [Bates Estabrooks]
29 Sep: @ 10:38:46 Re: Weird Cape May? [Blake Mathys]
29 Sep: @ 10:31:25  Weird Cape May? [Bates Estabrooks]





Subject: dark hawk in Ithaca, NY
Date: Thu Oct 15 2020 18:41 pm
From: kjm2 AT cornell.edu
 
Last weekend was a decent hawk migration day in upstate New York, with lots of birds moving very high. I was censusing tagged crows at the Cornell University compost facility (10 gull species, plus multiple hybrids over 20 years). The crows were watching something up high, and I managed to get onto a very high-flying hawk that was all dark. I got 4 bad photos through my sunroof before it disappeared off to the south.

Through binoculars all I could tell was that it wasn't a Golden Eagle and it looked like a Buteo.

I have the photos in my checklist at https://ebird.org/atlasny/chec...

I am most interested in opinions from western birders about the feel of all-dark (Calurus?) Red-tailed Hawk, vs dark Rough-legged Hawk. I thought early Rough-legged Hawk, but the wings looked too short and wide.

Just as a note, I have had Calurus-type, all-dark Red-tailed Hawks here at least twice before.

Thanks.

Kevin McGowan
Ithaca, NY


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sun Oct 11 2020 9:36 am
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
Dick, it’s difficult to be certain, but the newer scapulars appear to be
2nd generation (i.e., post-juvenile), and indeed it appears to be a 2nd
calendar year bird.

In terms of plumage cycles, we would place this gull in its 1st cycle,
since the assumption is all the flight feathers are still 1st generation.

Amar Ayyash

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:57 AM Dick Newell wrote:

> For my own edification, can I not see 3rd generation feathers in the
> scapulars, also, are not the primaries rather bleached? So why not 2nd
> calendar year? I attach a cropped image.
> Dick
>
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 23:34, Doug Pratt wrote:
>
> > Sorry. forgot the link:
> >
> > >
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
> > <
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
> >
> >
> >
> > "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> > called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> > Norman Rockwell
> >
> > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> > Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> > 1205 Selwyn Lane
> > Cary, NC 27511
> >
> > Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> > North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> > 11 West Jones Street
> > Raleigh NC 27601
> >
> > Phone 919-379-1679
> > Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
> >
> > Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sun Oct 11 2020 7:49 am
From: 0000043caa3f3182-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
I cannot see any candidate other than Glaucous-winged Gull 1st cycle.
Indeed it's a close match on the dark bill, strong structure of the head
and bill, short wings, the relatively dark back and the very bleached
wings. Iceland Gull and variants would show a much slighter structure
and longer wings. Nick

On 11/10/2020 00:00, Peter Pyle wrote:
> Yes, and I believe this might be the most expected gull and age on
> Guam, give the record in the NW Hawaiian Islands. Peter.
>
> At 03:44 PM 10/10/2020, David Irons wrote:
>> I agree with Amar based on the limited amount that I can see in this
>> set of images.
>>
>> Dave Irons
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> on behalf of Amar Ayyash
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:40 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Guam gull ID link
>>
>> Doug, this looks like a fairly typical 1st cycle Glaucous-winged Gull.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Amar Ayyash
>>
>> www.anythinglarus.com
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:37 PM Doug Pratt wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry.  forgot the link:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've
>> always
>> > called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference
>> is."   -
>> > Norman Rockwell
>> >
>> > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
>> > Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
>> > 1205 Selwyn Lane
>> > Cary, NC  27511
>> >
>> > Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
>> > North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
>> > 11 West Jones Street
>> > Raleigh NC  27601
>> >
>> > Phone 919-379-1679
>> > Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>> >
>> > Website:  http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>> >
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>>
>> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sun Oct 11 2020 4:53 am
From: dick.newell AT gmail.com
 
I am also in the UK. I am stunned that Iceland Gull is a candidate for
this. To my eye, it is too bulky, the wings are nowhere near long enough,
the bill is too strong and the head-shape does not have that Mew Gull look.
Also an Iceland Gull in Guam must be far less likely.
Dick

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 10:34, Colin Bradshaw
wrote:

> It has the relative head/body ratio and wing length of an Iceland Gull.
>
> 1st Alt can have relatively dark bills [contra Glaucous that always has
> that pinky basal 2/3]. They aren't as dark as the stuck on look of this but
> it may be an effects of the light and exposure.
>
> If I saw this bird in the UK I wouldn't hesitate in calling it as an
> Iceland
>
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 23:34, Doug Pratt wrote:
>
> > Sorry. forgot the link:
> >
> > >
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
> > <
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
> >
> >
> >
> > "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> > called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> > Norman Rockwell
> >
> > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> > Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> > 1205 Selwyn Lane
> > Cary, NC 27511
> >
> > Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> > North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> > 11 West Jones Street
> > Raleigh NC 27601
> >
> > Phone 919-379-1679
> > Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
> >
> > Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sun Oct 11 2020 4:36 am
From: drcolbradshaw AT gmail.com
 
It has the relative head/body ratio and wing length of an Iceland Gull.

1st Alt can have relatively dark bills [contra Glaucous that always has
that pinky basal 2/3]. They aren't as dark as the stuck on look of this but
it may be an effects of the light and exposure.

If I saw this bird in the UK I wouldn't hesitate in calling it as an Iceland

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 23:34, Doug Pratt wrote:

> Sorry. forgot the link:
>
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
>
>
>
> "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> Norman Rockwell
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sun Oct 11 2020 0:57 am
From: dick.newell AT gmail.com
 
For my own edification, can I not see 3rd generation feathers in the
scapulars, also, are not the primaries rather bleached? So why not 2nd
calendar year? I attach a cropped image.
Dick

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 23:34, Doug Pratt wrote:

> Sorry. forgot the link:
>
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
>
>
>
> "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> Norman Rockwell
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sat Oct 10 2020 18:03 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Yes, and I believe this might be the most expected gull and age on
Guam, give the record in the NW Hawaiian Islands. Peter.

At 03:44 PM 10/10/2020, David Irons wrote:
>I agree with Amar based on the limited amount that I can see in this
>set of images.
>
>Dave Irons
>
>
>________________________________
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> on behalf of Amar Ayyash
>Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:40 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Guam gull ID link
>
>Doug, this looks like a fairly typical 1st cycle Glaucous-winged Gull.
>
>Cheers,
>Amar Ayyash
>
>www.anythinglarus.com
>
>On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:37 PM Doug Pratt wrote:
>
> > Sorry. forgot the link:
> >
> > >
> > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
> > >
> >
> >
> > "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> > called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> > Norman Rockwell
> >
> > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> > Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> > 1205 Selwyn Lane
> > Cary, NC 27511
> >
> > Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> > North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> > 11 West Jones Street
> > Raleigh NC 27601
> >
> > Phone 919-379-1679
> > Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
> >
> > Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sat Oct 10 2020 17:47 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
I agree with Amar based on the limited amount that I can see in this set of images.

Dave Irons


________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Amar Ayyash
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:40 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Guam gull ID link

Doug, this looks like a fairly typical 1st cycle Glaucous-winged Gull.

Cheers,
Amar Ayyash

www.anythinglarus.com

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:37 PM Doug Pratt wrote:

> Sorry. forgot the link:
>
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
>
>
>
>
> "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> Norman Rockwell
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sat Oct 10 2020 17:42 pm
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
Doug, this looks like a fairly typical 1st cycle Glaucous-winged Gull.

Cheers,
Amar Ayyash

www.anythinglarus.com

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 5:37 PM Doug Pratt wrote:

> Sorry. forgot the link:
>
> >
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...
>
>
>
> "Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always
> called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." -
> Norman Rockwell
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID link
Date: Sat Oct 10 2020 17:37 pm
From: dpratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Sorry.  forgot the link:

> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ym8...


"Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." - Norman Rockwell

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC 27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC 27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...










Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Guam gull ID
Date: Sat Oct 10 2020 17:36 pm
From: dpratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Hi Everyone:

Gary Wiles and I need your help to ID a gull photographed in Cocos Lagoon, Guam by Martin Kastner on 16 March 2016. Whatever the species, it is a significant record because gulls of any kind are rare in Micronesia. The photos are badly overexposed, but can be blown up a lot before pixelating. We are assuming that it is one of the “white-winged” gulls, a bleached and worn 1st winter bird. The bill looks all black, but in a few shots may show a bit of paleness at the base. We are mostly concerned with the bill size. Any ideas or comments will be welcome.

Doug Pratt
"Some people have been kind enough to call me a fine artist. I've always called myself an illustrator. I'm not sure what the difference is." - Norman Rockwell

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC 27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC 27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...










Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Fri Oct 2 2020 4:07 am
From: 000004240273d5fd-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
All,The link below is the same bird Peter posted. Cape May NJ 9-24-14. It had a lot of us puzzledDon't know if any of my shots will helpHarvey TomlinsonDel Haven NJhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/... a message dated 9/30/2020 4:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU writes:
All:
My first experience with a similar bird came in Cape May, but years before the bird in the photo to which Peter linked.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Since then, I have run across a number of similar birds (10
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2020 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage

Hi Nick and all -

As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
(though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.

However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.

In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.

Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
color it may have to be left unidentified.

I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
alternate plumages.

Peter

At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
>I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
>difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
>alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
>and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
>
>I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
>it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
>
>The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
>bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
>some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species at
>this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call that
>it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
>of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
>they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
>that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
>
>FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
>BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
>breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
>Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
>breeding records.
>
>Nick Lethaby
>
>On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
>mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
> > have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to the
> > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> >
> > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > questions arising:
> >
> > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one species
> > over the other?
> > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> >
> > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > question here:
> > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> >
> > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
> > there.
> >
> > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> >
> > Mike Burrell
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Mike Burrell*
> > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > <
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > >
> > !
> > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>
>--
>Nick Lethaby
>Goleta, CA
>
>nlethaby@gmail.com
>Mobile: 805 284 6200
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

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Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Wed Sep 30 2020 14:54 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Thanks Tony,

Certainly alternate BWTE can have rufous breasts,
and in now looking back at the initial Toronto bird,
ML259341611
I see nothing wrong with it being within range for a pure BWTE.

But I'm still curious if BWTE can show unmarked
cinnamon flank feathers. Here's a larger shot of
the Chatham-Kent bird under discussion.
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
The unmarked rufous flank and sides-of-breast
feathers seem a good fit for incoming formative
feathers in an HY CITE but would seem incorrect
for an HY BWTE (which tend to have more black
scalloping to these feathers). Considering the
bill and head pattern, I still would not rule out a hybrid.

Peter

At 09:43 AM 9/30/2020, 0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU wrote:
>All:
>My first experience with a similar bird came in
>Cape May, but years before the bird in the photo to which Peter linked.
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>Since then, I have run across a number of
>similar birds (10Colorado, all in the Aug-Sep time frame, and
>with the amount and distribution of "cinnamon"
>being quite variable. I studied most of those
>birds and could find no definitive traits (head
>pattern, bill size and shape, head shape) that
>suggested anything other than Blue-winged Teal.
>In 10 minutes of going through Aug-Sep photos of
>BWTE in the eBird/Macaulay archive, I found
>these four photos scattered across the East,
>with the second being particularly telling:
>https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
>https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
>https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
>https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
>
>Given the distribution of the photo'ed birds
>(above), this is either a rare-but-widespread
>variant of BWTE plumage or there are an awful
>lot more CITE genes floating around in the
>eastern BWTE population. Given the rarity of
>pure CITE in the East, I think that Occam would go for the first option.
>Sincerely,
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukeringcurrently Fairborn, OHID columns
>eBird blogPhoto quizPhotos
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Pyle
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2020 6:37 pm
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blue-winged/Cinnamon
>Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
>
>Hi Nick and all -
>
>As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
>Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
>plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
>breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
>(though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
>alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
>which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
>size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
>a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
>https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
>so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.
>
>However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
>cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
>cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
>basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
>show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
>shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
>same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
>rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
>these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
>may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.
>
>In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
>CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
>this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.
>
>Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
>have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
>through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
>this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
>color it may have to be left unidentified.
>
>I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
>alternate plumages.
>
>Peter
>
>At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
> >I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
> >difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
> >alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
> >and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
> >
> >I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
> >it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
> >
> >The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
> >bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
> >some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species at
> >this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call that
> >it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
> >of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
> >they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
> >that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
> >
> >FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
> >BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
> >breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
> >Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
> >breeding records.
> >
> >Nick Lethaby
> >
> >On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
> >mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
> > > have shown very reddish underparts,
> brightest on the breast leading to the
> > > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> > >
> > > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > > questions arising:
> > >
> > > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > > b) If it is real, is this reddish
> colouration characteristic of one species
> > > over the other?
> > > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> > >
> > > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > > question here:
> > > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> > >
> > > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> > >
> > > Mike Burrell
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > *Mike Burrell*
> > > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > > >
> > > !
> > > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Nick Lethaby
> >Goleta, CA
> >
> >nlethaby@gmail.com
> >Mobile: 805 284 6200
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Wed Sep 30 2020 11:47 am
From: 0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
All:
My first experience with a similar bird came in Cape May, but years before the bird in the photo to which Peter linked.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Since then, I have run across a number of similar birds (10
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2020 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage

Hi Nick and all -

As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
(though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.

However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.

In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.

Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
color it may have to be left unidentified.

I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
alternate plumages.

Peter

At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
>I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
>difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
>alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
>and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
>
>I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
>it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
>
>The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
>bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
>some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species at
>this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call that
>it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
>of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
>they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
>that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
>
>FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
>BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
>breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
>Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
>breeding records.
>
>Nick Lethaby
>
>On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
>mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
> > have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to the
> > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> >
> > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > questions arising:
> >
> > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one species
> > over the other?
> > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> >
> > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > question here:
> > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> >
> > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
> > there.
> >
> > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> >
> > Mike Burrell
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Mike Burrell*
> > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > <
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > >
> > !
> > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>
>--
>Nick Lethaby
>Goleta, CA
>
>nlethaby@gmail.com
>Mobile: 805 284 6200
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Wed Sep 30 2020 11:15 am
From: 0000012933c40dff-dmarc-request AT listserv.ksu.edu
 
This bird looks like the typical dull end of CMWA plumage. Streaking extending up onto the throat is virtually diagnostic for Cape May.
https://ebird.org/media/catalo...
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...

Tony

Tony Leukeringcurrently Fairborn, OHID columns
eBird blogPhoto quizPhotos


-----Original Message-----
From: Bates Estabrooks
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tue, Sep 29, 2020 11:37 am
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

Blake,

Thanks for the quick response. Do you see this type of markings in the head? Is this common>

Thanks.

Bates
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Blake Mathys
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:34 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

In my opinion, I would be comfortable calling this a Cape May Warbler and don't see anything obvious to indicate otherwise.

Blake Mathys
------------------------------------------------------
https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
------------------------------------------------------

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:26 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this. I don't have a lot of experience with this species.

A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.

Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.

Thanks.

Bates Estabrooks
Tennessee

https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Wed Sep 30 2020 9:40 am
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
Interesting coloration, though the eye stripe and bill size still make me
think BWTE. Here's a photo feature ID discussion we did on female Cinnamon
and Blue-winged Teal in Sacramento, where dozens occur together in a
residential pond.

http://www.cvbirds.org/wp-cont...


On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 7:04 PM Mike V.A. Burrell
wrote:

> Thanks Nick and Peter,
>
> Just want to add that unfortunately Peter (and others) were put at a
> disadvantage and tried to age/sex these birds before the "full" set of
> photos was available...it was a fairly fluid situation. On this theme, I
> just received a new photo of the first (Toronto) bird which shows the open
> wing - it's very blurry but I believe it shows an adult male wing pattern.
> I've added it into the blog post labelled "6a".
>
> Unfortunately, I have only had a very short amount of time with one of
> these birds and as stated on the blog I can't be sure if all of the Rondeau
> (bird 2) are of the same individual. I've been reassured by some who did
> get more time with that/those birds that the bird in flight (photos 15/16)
> is the same individual on the water in the photos 7-14. So it appears to me
> that bird two is a young female. The second bird in photo 12 is unknown
> age/sex and same with the third bird, from Forest (Lambton County).
>
> Hope that clears a bit up...but probably not!
>
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:37 PM Peter Pyle wrote:
>
> > Hi Nick and all -
> >
> > As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
> > Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
> > plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
> > breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
> > (though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
> > alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
> > which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
> > size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
> > a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
> > https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> > so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.
> >
> > However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
> > cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
> > cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
> > basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
> > show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
> > shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
> > same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
> > rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
> > these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
> > may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.
> >
> > In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
> > CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
> > this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.
> >
> > Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
> > have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
> > through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
> > this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
> > color it may have to be left unidentified.
> >
> > I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
> > alternate plumages.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
> > >I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
> > >difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
> > >alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once
> female
> > >and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
> > >
> > >I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given
> that
> > >it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
> > >
> > >The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
> > >bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there
> is
> > >some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species
> > at
> > >this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call
> > that
> > >it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this
> time
> > >of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
> > >they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
> > >that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
> > >
> > >FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
> > >BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
> > >breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late
> September.
> > >Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
> > >breeding records.
> > >
> > >Nick Lethaby
> > >
> > >On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
> > >mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month
> > that
> > > > have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading
> to
> > the
> > > > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> > > >
> > > > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > > > questions arising:
> > > >
> > > > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > > > b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one
> > species
> > > > over the other?
> > > > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > > > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> > > >
> > > > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > > > question here:
> > > > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> > > >
> > > > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime
> > in
> > > > there.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> > > >
> > > > Mike Burrell
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *Mike Burrell*
> > > > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > > > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > > > >
> > > > !
> > > > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Nick Lethaby
> > >Goleta, CA
> > >
> > >nlethaby@gmail.com
> > >Mobile: 805 284 6200
> > >
> > >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>
> --
>
> *Mike Burrell*
> mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> <
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> >
> !
> Best Places to Bird in Ontario
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 21:09 pm
From: mike.burrell.on AT gmail.com
 
Thanks Nick and Peter,

Just want to add that unfortunately Peter (and others) were put at a
disadvantage and tried to age/sex these birds before the "full" set of
photos was available...it was a fairly fluid situation. On this theme, I
just received a new photo of the first (Toronto) bird which shows the open
wing - it's very blurry but I believe it shows an adult male wing pattern.
I've added it into the blog post labelled "6a".

Unfortunately, I have only had a very short amount of time with one of
these birds and as stated on the blog I can't be sure if all of the Rondeau
(bird 2) are of the same individual. I've been reassured by some who did
get more time with that/those birds that the bird in flight (photos 15/16)
is the same individual on the water in the photos 7-14. So it appears to me
that bird two is a young female. The second bird in photo 12 is unknown
age/sex and same with the third bird, from Forest (Lambton County).

Hope that clears a bit up...but probably not!

Mike

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:37 PM Peter Pyle wrote:

> Hi Nick and all -
>
> As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
> Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
> plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
> breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
> (though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
> alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
> which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
> size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
> a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
> https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
> so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.
>
> However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
> cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
> cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
> basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
> show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
> shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
> same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
> rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
> these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
> may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.
>
> In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
> CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
> this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.
>
> Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
> have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
> through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
> this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
> color it may have to be left unidentified.
>
> I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
> alternate plumages.
>
> Peter
>
> At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
> >I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
> >difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
> >alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
> >and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
> >
> >I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
> >it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
> >
> >The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
> >bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
> >some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species
> at
> >this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call
> that
> >it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
> >of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
> >they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
> >that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
> >
> >FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
> >BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
> >breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
> >Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
> >breeding records.
> >
> >Nick Lethaby
> >
> >On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
> >mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month
> that
> > > have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to
> the
> > > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> > >
> > > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > > questions arising:
> > >
> > > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > > b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one
> species
> > > over the other?
> > > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> > >
> > > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > > question here:
> > > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> > >
> > > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime
> in
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> > >
> > > Mike Burrell
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > *Mike Burrell*
> > > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > > >
> > > !
> > > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> > >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Nick Lethaby
> >Goleta, CA
> >
> >nlethaby@gmail.com
> >Mobile: 805 284 6200
> >
> >Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


--

*Mike Burrell*
mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
Please support my birdathon for bird conservation

!
Best Places to Bird in Ontario


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 17:40 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Hi Nick and all -

As I commented on these birds and an earlier and another one from
Totonto for Ron Pittaway over a period of 2-3 weeks, my thinking on
plumages in these has evolved. I had first thought that a cinnamon
breast in alternate ("eclipse") plumage was not found in pure BWTE
(though might indicate hybridism). Most of the cinnamon-breasted
alternate birds labeled BWTE at Macaulay were found in the West,
which may have been misidentified or involved hybrids. Some had bill
size/shape indicating CITE. However I did find one in New Jersey with
a cinnamon breast and a small bill:
https://macaulaylibrary.org/as...
so I no longer think a rufous breast necessarily diagnostic of CITE.

However, some of the images at the site (such as ##9-10) also show
cinnamon flanks. When I enlarged these I first thought that the
cinnamon flank feathers appeared to be worn, indicating left-over
basic plumage and an adult male CITE. Can BWTE of any age/plumage
show cinnamon flank feathers like this? I had not seen the open wing
shot (#15) until it was posted at this site. This appears to be the
same bird as in the other photos. The outer greater coverts are
rounded, indicating a first-fall bird, and the extent of white to
these coverts would indicate male. If so, the cinnamon flank feathers
may be fresher formative feathers and may help confirm male.

In the end I agreed that this bird's bill seemed small for a male
CITE (even if a first-fall bird), and that perhaps the combination of
this and the cinnamon flanks indicated a hybrid.

Photo 12 shows two cinnamon-breasted birds, and the back bird would
have a bill size and shape that looks better for CITE. But in looking
through these photos several times, this seems to be the only one of
this back bird, and since we cannot ascertain age or sex or flank
color it may have to be left unidentified.

I'll be curious to see more comments about variation in BWTE
alternate plumages.

Peter

At 02:49 PM 9/29/2020, Nick Lethaby wrote:
>I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
>difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
>alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
>and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.
>
>I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
>it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.
>
>The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
>bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
>some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species at
>this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call that
>it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
>of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
>they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
>that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.
>
>FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
>BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
>breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
>Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
>breeding records.
>
>Nick Lethaby
>
>On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
>mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
> > have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to the
> > possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
> >
> > There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> > questions arising:
> >
> > a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> > b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one species
> > over the other?
> > c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> > alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
> >
> > I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> > question here:
> > http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
> >
> > I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
> > there.
> >
> > Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
> >
> > Mike Burrell
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Mike Burrell*
> > mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> > Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> > <
> >
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> > >
> > !
> > Best Places to Bird in Ontario
> >
> >
> > Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
> >
>
>
>--
>Nick Lethaby
>Goleta, CA
>
>nlethaby@gmail.com
>Mobile: 805 284 6200
>
>Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 16:52 pm
From: nlethaby AT gmail.com
 
I look at these two whenever possible in S CA and find them often very
difficult at this time of year. Alternate males are easy enough but
alternate females and, especially, juveniles are really tough. Once female
and juvs molt into basic/first basic, these two are pretty easy again.

I think the bill on the second bird simply isn't large enough, given that
it is an eclipse male Cinnamon that is being proposed.

The first bird is tricky. The bill isn't an obvious large Cinnamon teal
bill, but if we are talking about a female, measurements suggest there is
some overlap with male BWTE. The facial pattern is OK for either species at
this time of year. So I think it's difficult to make a definitive call that
it is a Cinnamon Teal. I have noticed that some birds in S CA at this time
of year do show a contrasting reddish breast but have never been sure if
they were BWTE or Cinnamons. I wasn't aware of Peter Pyle's observation
that it is diagnostic of Cinnamon.

FWIW, at least in S CA, Cinnamon Teal migrate a fair bit earlier than
BWTE, appearing as early as late July, although its presence as a local
breeder complicates things a bit. BWTE seem to arrive from late September.
Here BWTE is increasing as a winterer and there have been a few recent
breeding records.

Nick Lethaby

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:20 AM Mike V.A. Burrell <
mike.burrell.on@gmail.com> wrote:

> There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
> have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to the
> possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).
>
> There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
> questions arising:
>
> a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
> b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one species
> over the other?
> c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
> alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?
>
> I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
> question here:
> http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...
>
> I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
> there.
>
> Thanks for any feedback you can offer.
>
> Mike Burrell
>
> --
>
> *Mike Burrell*
> mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
> Please support my birdathon for bird conservation
> <
> https://www.canadahelps.org/en...
> >
> !
> Best Places to Bird in Ontario
>
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...
>


--
Nick Lethaby
Goleta, CA

nlethaby@gmail.com
Mobile: 805 284 6200

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 14:54 pm
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Kevin,

Thanks very much. This is helpful.

Bates


Get Outlook for Android
________________________________
From: KEVIN KARLSON
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 12:59:11 PM
To: Bates Estabrooks ; Frontiers, NBHC
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

Bates, this is a "typical" immature Cape May Warbler, and actually a bit more heavily marked than some dull immature female Cape Mays, which hold this plumage to the following spring. Last year when leading a warbler workshop at the Biggest Week in American Birding, we had 7 Cape May Warblers in a bare tree, and three of them were immature females that were even paler and less heavily marked underneath than the bird you posted. I attached a few shots of typical immature females that we see regularly in fall in Cape May. Kevin
> On 09/29/2020 11:37 AM Bates Estabrooks wrote:
>
>
> Blake,
>
> Thanks for the quick response. Do you see this type of markings in the head? Is this common>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bates
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Blake Mathys
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:34 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?
>
> In my opinion, I would be comfortable calling this a Cape May Warbler and don't see anything obvious to indicate otherwise.
>
> Blake Mathys
> ------------------------------------------------------
> https://apc01.safelinks.protec...
> https://apc01.safelinks.protec...
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:26 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?
>
> Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this. I don't have a lot of experience with this species.
>
> A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.
>
> Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bates Estabrooks
> Tennessee
>
> https://apc01.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://apc01.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://apc01.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://apc01.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal underparts colour in alternate (eclipse) plumage
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 12:24 pm
From: mike.burrell.on AT gmail.com
 
There have been a number of teal seen in Ontario over the past month that
have shown very reddish underparts, brightest on the breast leading to the
possibility of Cinnamon Teal (which is very rare in Ontario).

There has been a fair bit of discussion on these birds. Some of the
questions arising:

a) Is this an actual plumage feature, or just staining?
b) If it is real, is this reddish colouration characteristic of one species
over the other?
c) More generally, is bill structure the only reliable ID feature for
alternate-plumaged birds and how variable is it?

I put up a fair bit of details, discussion and photos of the birds in
question here:
http://mikeburrell.blogspot.co...

I also posted it to Advanced Birding on Facebook if you want to chime in
there.

Thanks for any feedback you can offer.

Mike Burrell

--

*Mike Burrell*
mike.burrell.on@gmail.com
Please support my birdathon for bird conservation

!
Best Places to Bird in Ontario


Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 12:06 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Bates, this is a "typical" immature Cape May Warbler, and actually a bit more heavily marked than some dull immature female Cape Mays, which hold this plumage to the following spring. Last year when leading a warbler workshop at the Biggest Week in American Birding, we had 7 Cape May Warblers in a bare tree, and three of them were immature females that were even paler and less heavily marked underneath than the bird you posted. I attached a few shots of typical immature females that we see regularly in fall in Cape May. Kevin
> On 09/29/2020 11:37 AM Bates Estabrooks wrote:
>
>
> Blake,
>
> Thanks for the quick response. Do you see this type of markings in the head? Is this common>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bates
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Blake Mathys
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:34 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?
>
> In my opinion, I would be comfortable calling this a Cape May Warbler and don't see anything obvious to indicate otherwise.
>
> Blake Mathys
> ------------------------------------------------------
> https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
> https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> ________________________________
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:26 AM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?
>
> Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this. I don't have a lot of experience with this species.
>
> A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.
>
> Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bates Estabrooks
> Tennessee
>
> https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
>
> Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 10:39 am
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Blake,

Thanks for the quick response. Do you see this type of markings in the head? Is this common>

Thanks.

Bates
________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Blake Mathys
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:34 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

In my opinion, I would be comfortable calling this a Cape May Warbler and don't see anything obvious to indicate otherwise.

Blake Mathys
------------------------------------------------------
https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
https://eur05.safelinks.protec...
------------------------------------------------------

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:26 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this. I don't have a lot of experience with this species.

A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.

Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.

Thanks.

Bates Estabrooks
Tennessee

https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://eur05.safelinks.protec...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 10:38 am
From: blakemathys AT hotmail.com
 
In my opinion, I would be comfortable calling this a Cape May Warbler and don't see anything obvious to indicate otherwise.

Blake Mathys
------------------------------------------------------
http://blakemathys.com/
https://www.ohiodominican.edu/...
------------------------------------------------------

________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Bates Estabrooks
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 11:26 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Weird Cape May?

Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this. I don't have a lot of experience with this species.

A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.

Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.

Thanks.

Bates Estabrooks
Tennessee

https://drive.google.com/drive...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...



Subject: Weird Cape May?
Date: Tue Sep 29 2020 10:31 am
From: wgpu AT hotmail.com
 
Perhaps folks in this group have some thoughts about this.  I don't have a lot of experience with this species.

A friend took these pictures yesterday, in eastern Tennessee, of a Cape May (?) Warbler. It struck me as odd though because of its gray "hood" and no defined cheek patch.

Is this odd for a Cape May, or not? If so, might it be some sort of hybrid? I ran through Macaulay and did not find anything real close to it.

Thanks.

Bates Estabrooks
Tennessee

https://drive.google.com/drive...

Archives: https://listserv.ksu.edu/birdw...


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