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Updated on April 25, 2015, 7:05 am

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25 Apr: @ 06:54:56  Possible LIEG X SNEG Hybrid [Harvey Tomlinson]
18 Apr: @ 11:33:07 Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A... [Mark B Bartosik]
18 Apr: @ 05:13:25 Re: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is [Mark B Bartosik]
18 Apr: @ 04:10:31 Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A... [Mark B Bartosik]
18 Apr: @ 01:35:46  paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is [Alvaro Jaramillo]
18 Apr: @ 01:12:14 Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A... [Alvaro Jaramillo]
18 Apr: @ 00:23:35 Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A... [Mark B Bartosik]
17 Apr: @ 21:35:06  Non Breeding [Timothy Reeves]
17 Apr: @ 14:58:31 Re: Cayenne Terns [Shaibal Mitra]
17 Apr: @ 14:10:42  photos of Cayenne Terns from Brazil [Alvaro Jaramillo]
17 Apr: @ 13:15:54 Re: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A... [Mark B Bartosik]
17 Apr: @ 10:47:22  A marginal record of Cayenne Tern [Ian McLaren]
17 Apr: @ 10:08:09 Re: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) April 9, 2015 Texa s [Alvaro Jaramillo]
17 Apr: @ 09:10:09  Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrid s) [Reid Martin]
17 Apr: @ 00:41:53  Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) April 9, 2015 Texas [Mark B Bartosik]
16 Apr: @ 18:43:12 Re: Mew Gull in Connecticut [Steve Hampton]
16 Apr: @ 17:28:53  Mew Gull in Connecticut [Nick Bonomo]
10 Apr: @ 01:04:53  Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood]
09 Apr: @ 19:54:12 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Amar Ayyash]
09 Apr: @ 19:00:41 Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Bruce Mactavish]
09 Apr: @ 18:35:05 Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Amar Ayyash]
09 Apr: @ 18:34:54 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Doug Faulkner]
09 Apr: @ 17:17:45 Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Jean Iron]
09 Apr: @ 15:39:57 Re: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Peter Pyle]
09 Apr: @ 14:44:32  L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland [Kirk Zufelt]
09 Apr: @ 13:07:55 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Phil Davis]
09 Apr: @ 12:09:35 Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Angus Wilson]
09 Apr: @ 11:12:53 Re: Colorado LBBG - correction [Reid Martin]
09 Apr: @ 10:40:08 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Reid Martin]
09 Apr: @ 07:32:26 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Suzanne Sullivan]
09 Apr: @ 04:54:14 Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Peter Wilkinson]
09 Apr: @ 00:46:14 Re: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Noah Arthur]
08 Apr: @ 22:12:01 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Paul Pisano]
08 Apr: @ 21:17:22  Phoenix, AZ mystery dove [Noah Arthur]
08 Apr: @ 20:22:34 Re: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Reid Martin]
08 Apr: @ 15:45:07  Fw: [BIRDWG01] Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Alan Wormington]
08 Apr: @ 15:29:28  Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull [Doug Faulkner]
05 Apr: @ 10:17:18 Re: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls [Matthew A. Young]
05 Apr: @ 09:57:14 Re: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls [Jeff Holbrook]
05 Apr: @ 01:17:51 Re: potential Common Snipe in Newfoundland [=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_J=F6rgensen?=]
04 Apr: @ 09:41:18 Re: potential Common Snipe in Newfoundland [=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_J=F6rgensen?=]
04 Apr: @ 07:12:04 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Suzanne Sullivan]
03 Apr: @ 22:17:31  Eskimo habitat [Noah Arthur]
03 Apr: @ 22:08:20 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Alvaro Jaramillo]
03 Apr: @ 21:56:41 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Alvaro Jaramillo]
03 Apr: @ 21:46:16 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Noah Arthur]
03 Apr: @ 21:13:27 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Jeff Gilligan]
03 Apr: @ 20:22:17 Re: Flying small curlew look-alikes? [Jamie Chavez]
03 Apr: @ 19:28:32 Re: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls [Paul Guris]
03 Apr: @ 17:20:51 Re: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls [Kevin J. McGowan]





Subject: Possible LIEG X SNEG Hybrid
Date: Sat Apr 25 2015 6:54 am
From: ShearH2Os AT aol.com
 
Hi All,
I photographed an odd Egret at Edwin B Forsythe (Brig) New Jersey last
Tuesday that I believe at the very least is a hybrid LIEG x SNEG.
It's head is a bit shaggy, but the two long lanceolated plumes are very
distinctive. It's body, as seen in pic 2, is bulkier/heavier than the Snowy's
around it and based on the feathered tibia area the legs are stouter. I
couldn't tell height because of varying water levels. It was more "stoic" than
the numerous Snowy's around it and would not shuffle around like the
Snowy's with the slamming of car doors although that's what finally put it to
flight.
Thoughts on this bird would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Thanks and Good Birding,
Harvey Tomlinson
NJ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A...
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 11:33 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
In a message dated 4/18/2015 12:47:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
chucao@coastside.net writes:

Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific?
Alvaro - I fond it but now I see why I did not take a note - it is too
general note; I do not know who was copy and paste from who


http://www.planetofbirds.com/c...
urygnatha

The similar 'Cayenne' Tern breeds on islands in the southern Caribbean Sea
and along the Atlantic coast of South America, and has been recorded
several times along the Atlantic coast of North America and once along the
Pacific coast of Colombia.




http://secrb.trinidadbirding.c...


The similar ‘Cayenne’ Tern breeds on islands in the southern Caribbean
Sea and along the Atlantic coast of South America and has been recorded
several times along the Atlantic coast of North America and once along the
Pacific coast of Colombia



https://books.google.com/books?id=H9INVOMUgOAC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=cayenne
+tern+pacific+record+colombia&source=bl&ots=9VVJbYArzt&sig=qB9_sUg6TzBpiCXx1
uwO_M7rO5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DXoyVdHZJ5H1oASpwIHoBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=
cayenne%20tern%20pacific%20record%20colombia&f=false

S eurygnatha (Cayenne Tern) of southern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts of
South ... (there are several records from northern Colombia),


Mark B Bartosik


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 5:13 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Alvaro,

I already posted my opinion about your photo in earlier reply to Cayenne
thread about possibly back light effects etc.

But I had my folder open with Cabot’s Terns together with Cayenne Terns in
the same flock. One of the first I checked matches yellow/black proportions
- look here

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

And goddess forbid do not think I tried to say it is Cayenne - as I already
said many Cabot’s have prominent yellow tip.


Mark B Bartosik


In a message dated 4/18/2015 1:07:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
chucao@COASTSIDE.NET writes:



Easterners - what do you think about a Sandwich with such a great deal of
yellow on the bill tip such as this one? I don't know what this is, but it
is just a bit more extreme, and in breeding plumage, but similar to the
oddball I photographed here in Half Moon Bay which I linked to in an
earlier
message. I have not looked to see if this was accepted by the CBRC.

http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=169
&fullsize=1



good birding

Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A...
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 4:10 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Alvaro,

You are not alone - I am lost a bit too. Perhaps it is very late and I have
very bad weather outside - lost power a few times so my writing was
distracted as well.

“But to answer your question. I don’t know if anything is published on
dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I know they exist because I see them
(sometimes multiple in one flock) both here in California and in Chile on
my annual trips there. I have been seeing them for ages, they are actually
pretty frequent, not at all a rarity.”

So, nothing was published I assume - wonder why? Even that I do trust your
observations I always like to depend on something solid that was published.
I find hard to believe that important thing like that is not even
mentioned in major publications/books. Well this gives me a better picture how
little really was done to study those birds.

“If I understand you right, I should put that forward as a Cayenne Tern?”

Not sure what you mean as I did not offer any opinion on that tern - in
fact I wanted to think about it as I see sort of mixed traits of Elegant and
Cayenne; I do not know nothing about this find details - you know more;
was this tern associated with other terns, how was reacting etc.


“As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central
America.”

Perhaps my fault - I was talking about sighting records (did not say
nothing about breeding) - and I said I want to look more into it (somehow eBird
was choking when I was accessing specific data for different months, lost
electricity power a few times, so I gave up)

“As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central America.


Now I lost you a bit. So do they do it irregularly? If so this is enough.
Again I was talking about overlap of sighting records.

“There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in my
opinion most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants with
dark on the bill. “

Here I think we have similar feelings. I am familiar with this paper; had
it open when wrote my reply but did not say anything as I do have mix
reactions. I do not know nothing about these authors or this particular journal
but have seen some heresies published about behavior of birds in South
America.

“Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? “

I will have to look but I remember reading a note that one vagrant was
reported there. All yellow-bill or not I do not remember or it was not
mentioned.


“Also where is this documented case of hybridization in Pacific South
America. “

You already mentioned case in California and I was referring to the paper
we both dislike so my fault I did not mention that fact.

Now about your photo - it seems to be back lighted so transparent part of
the yellow bill tip can create some extra effect and perhaps concentration
of black pigment in that area near the tip that normally looks black has
lower concentration of pigment (and no bone inside) than other parts of the
bill (just a thought). On the other hand I do not find this yellow tip so
large to loose sleep over it; some Cabot’s can have it quite prominent.

Mark B Bartosik


In a message dated 4/18/2015 12:47:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
chucao@coastside.net writes:


Mark
You lost me a bit in your message. But to answer your question. I don’t
know if anything is published on dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I
know they exist because I see them (sometimes multiple in one flock) both
here in California and in Chile on my annual trips there. I have been seeing
them for ages, they are actually pretty frequent, not at all a rarity. That
one in my photos is the most extreme example. If I understand you right, I
should put that forward as a Cayenne Tern?
As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders
regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central
America. There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in my
opinion most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants
with dark on the bill. Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? Also
where is this documented case of hybridization in Pacific South America. I
am really confused here because Elegants do not breed in South America,
and neither do Sandwich on the Pacific.
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com


From: MBB22222@aol.com [mailto:MBB22222@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:29 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Cc: chucao@coastside.net; shaibal.mitra@csi.cuny.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne
hybrids) – A...


Hi Alvaro, Shai and All,



Now I should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies.
In fact it will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements
in your both replies.



Alvaro, if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant
Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than Florida
Record Committee with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously Shai
would accept one as he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say
it first that I strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not
all records we are creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they
really are. Here is description from his paper:



“The bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed
to droop toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow,
devoid of any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of
the bill were purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both
cutting edges, and the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these areas,
i.e., in the middle portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray
marks. These marks were not very extensive and were most obvious when the
bill was in full profile, but in some views, they were barely discernible.”



So definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think
that if we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more
black pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos. Like we
all mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has
clinal black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much
pigment is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely we
deal with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’
s). To take it farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local
variants - something never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all
these possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with
black bill areas can be safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or
not (again to some even pure yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely
identified as such). Following this rule will lead to not accept many records to be
published, Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be
better to correct them (misidentified records) in the future when we will better
understand genetic of these two taxa. For now when we are still looking
for answers to (too) many questions the published data can only help. All
these unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried somewhere and can only
add to confusion when a new person start searching for information.



Now Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant
Tern (pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills.
You wrote:



“Two things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill
colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant)
to show black on the bill every so often.”



From what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne
intermediates and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills and
there are only Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills.
Never mind I see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant
integrates are in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably
in error. Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in
South America, not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population
are overlapping year around in many places especially in Central America – I
will look at this data later as this is a new approach to me. BTW there
is at least one record of Cayenne vagrant to Pacific side.



As I could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink
flush with Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as
many of them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush
in Elegant plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only
sometimes, can be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these
two examples. I cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some
not calibrated monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite
impressive.



http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...


At the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not
enough data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some
aspects.



Thanks for interesting discussion



Mark B Bartosik



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: paper on hybrids in Mexico - Terns that is
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 1:35 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Folks



In my opinion, this paper should never have been published in its current
form. Here are various photos of presumed hybrids from Mexico. All of these
birds look like variant Elegant Terns, I am surprised they see so few in the
colony to be frank given how many I see up here. I am quite sure these are
not hybrids (structurally there is nothing wrong with them, no intermediacy
towards Sandwich even though they suggest there is..there isn't!), and there
is no evidence of hybridization published, no pure Sandwich in the area. The
only evidence is dark on the bill! I am not sure why it didn't occur to them
to test instead the hypothesis that dark on the bill exists in Elegant
Terns!!

http://www.marineornithology.o...



Easterners - what do you think about a Sandwich with such a great deal of
yellow on the bill tip such as this one? I don't know what this is, but it
is just a bit more extreme, and in breeding plumage, but similar to the
oddball I photographed here in Half Moon Bay which I linked to in an earlier
message. I have not looked to see if this was accepted by the CBRC.

http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/gallery/displayimage.php?pid9



Subject: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A...
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 1:12 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Mark



You lost me a bit in your message. But to answer your question. I don’t know if anything is published on dark bill markings on Elegant Terns. But I know they exist because I see them (sometimes multiple in one flock) both here in California and in Chile on my annual trips there. I have been seeing them for ages, they are actually pretty frequent, not at all a rarity. That one in my photos is the most extreme example. If I understand you right, I should put that forward as a Cayenne Tern?

As breeders Elegant and Sandwich are not birds that overlap as breeders regularly, so I lost you here where you talk about overlap in Central America. There have been Sandwich x Elegants documented in California, but in my opinion most of the presumed hybrids from Isla Raza, Mexico are Elegants with dark on the bill. Where was this Cayenne you mention on the Pacific? Also where is this documented case of hybridization in Pacific South America. I am really confused here because Elegants do not breed in South America, and neither do Sandwich on the Pacific.



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: MBB22222@aol.com [mailto:MBB22222@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:29 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Cc: chucao@coastside.net; shaibal.mitra@csi.cuny.edu
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – A...



Hi Alvaro, Shai and All,



Now I should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies. In fact it will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements in your both replies.



Alvaro, if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than Florida Record Committee with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously Shai would accept one as he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say it first that I strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not all records we are creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they really are. Here is description from his paper:



“The bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed to droop toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow, devoid of any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of the bill were purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both cutting edges, and the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these areas, i.e., in the middle portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray marks. These marks were not very extensive and were most obvious when the bill was in full profile, but in some views, they were barely discernible.”



So definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think that if we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more black pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos. Like we all mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has clinal black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much pigment is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely we deal with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’s). To take it farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local variants - something never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all these possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with black bill areas can be safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or not (again to some even pure yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely identified as such). Following this rule will lead to not accept many records to be published, Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be better to correct them (misidentified records) in the future when we will better understand genetic of these two taxa. For now when we are still looking for answers to (too) many questions the published data can only help. All these unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried somewhere and can only add to confusion when a new person start searching for information.



Now Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant Tern (pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills. You wrote:



“Two things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) to show black on the bill every so often.”



From what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne intermediates and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills and there are only Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills. Never mind I see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant integrates are in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably in error. Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in South America, not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population are overlapping year around in many places especially in Central America – I will look at this data later as this is a new approach to me. BTW there is at least one record of Cayenne vagrant to Pacific side.



As I could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink flush with Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as many of them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush in Elegant plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only sometimes, can be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these two examples. I cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some not calibrated monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite impressive.



http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...


At the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not enough data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some aspects.



Thanks for interesting discussion



Mark B Bartosik


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A...
Date: Sat Apr 18 2015 0:23 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Hi Alvaro, Shai and All,

Now I should to thank you both , Alvaro and Shai, for laborious replies. In
fact it will be easier for me to discuss some points base on statements in
your both replies.

Alvaro, if I understand correctly will refuse to accept any vagrant
Cayenne-type tern that doesn’t have pure yellow bill (still better than Florida
Record Committee with strong vote 7-0 against any vagrant). Obviously Shai
would accept one as he published record of one as Cayenne Tern. Let me say it
first that I strongly support his decision. By publishing some but not all
records we are creating an illusion that records are scarcer then they
really are. Here is description from his paper:

“The bill appeared very long, much slimmer than that of Royal Tern, seemed
to droop toward the tip, and its overall color was a cold greenish-yellow,
devoid of any orange or red tones. The basal fifth and the distal third of
the bill were purely this color, as were the top of the culmen, both
cutting edges, and the lower edge of the lower mandible. In between these areas,
i.e., in the middle portions of each mandible, were several blackish-gray
marks. These marks were not very extensive and were most obvious when the
bill was in full profile, but in some views, they were barely discernible.”

So definitely this Cayenne bill had some black bill coloration. I think
that if we start to try to divide intermediates in groups of less and more
black pigment showing on the bill we could create a bigger chaos. Like we all
mentioned (Alvaro even stressed it out strongly) Caribbean population has
clinal black pigment distribution so it does not matter much how much
pigment is there. As long as there is less than in Cabot’s bill very likely we
deal with either intermediates (Cayenne) or intergrades (Cayenne X Cabot’s).
To take it farther, as Shai wrote, plausibly they can be rare local
variants - something never documented yet but perhaps possible. So with all
these possibilities, even that not equally probable, no single individual with
black bill areas can be safely classified as a pure Cayenne, vagrant or not
(again to some even pure yellow-billed Cayenne cannot be safely identified
as such). Following this rule will lead to not accept many records to be
published, Shai’s one included. And this, IMHO, is wrong. It would be better
to correct them (misidentified records) in the future when we will better
understand genetic of these two taxa. For now when we are still looking for
answers to (too) many questions the published data can only help. All
these unaccepted/non-confirmed records are just buried somewhere and can only
add to confusion when a new person start searching for information.

Now Alvaro, can you please refer to me the published papers about Elegant
Tern (pure, not a Cabot’s X Elegant) having black pigment in their bills.
You wrote:

“Two things go on here. One is that some of Thalasseus have variable bill
colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) to
show black on the bill every so often.”

From what I know the hypothesis now is that probably both Cayenne
intermediates and Cabot’s X Cayenne integrates can show black on their bills and
there are only Cabot’ X Elegant intergrades that have black on the bills.
Never mind I see that as I scrolled down your post you believe that Elegant
integrates are in your opinion Elegant variants and all papers are probably
in error. Interesting; quite well documented in Florida and on Pacific (in
South America, not California) side both Sandwich and Elegant population
are overlapping year around in many places especially in Central America – I
will look at this data later as this is a new approach to me. BTW there is
at least one record of Cayenne vagrant to Pacific side.

As I could see under the photo you posted people still associate pink flush
with Elegant Tern. Here is a link to Cabot’s photo (taken recently as many
of them sport pink flush now) that easy matches or even exceed pink flush
in Elegant plumage and can be seen in all underparts; so, but only
sometimes, can be seen in Royal plumage as well - - I made a composite of these two
examples. I cannot guarantee how the image is going to display on some not
calibrated monitors but in the nature individuals like that look quite
impressive.

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

At the end I would like to stress out that it seems that there is not
enough data now to draw any final conclusion, so we all might be wrong in some
aspects.

Thanks for interesting discussion

Mark B Bartosik

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Subject: Non Breeding
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 21:35 pm
From: northern.parula AT rocketmail.com
 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Cayenne Terns
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 14:58 pm
From: Shaibal.Mitra AT csi.cuny.edu
 
Hi Mark and all,

As Alvaro notes, some degree of variation is to be expected in any large population, and the degree of variation itself varies among populations. Comparing the frequencies of scarce to rare variants across multiple populations on different continents is bound to be difficult, but I also agree with Alvaro's basic summary of the situation in the smaller Thalasseus:

(1) southern eurygnatha (which breed during the Austral summer and aren't even suspected of exchanging genes with northern Cayenne Terns) usually show wholly yellow bills, but they nevertheless include variants with dark bill elements relatively often--these are mentioned by all the authors who have tackled the issue. Indeed, as stated in Mitra and Buckley (2000*), "Buckley and Buckley (1984) assembled evidence documenting variation in bill coloration within populations of eurygnatha from essentially all portions of the taxons known range, including the larger-billed, longer-winged, austral-summer breeding populations in Brazil (Sick and Leo 1965), Uruguay (Escalante 1970), and Argentina (Voous 1968). Birds in all of these populations showed yellowish bills with varying amounts of dark blotching. In view of the great distance from the nearest colonies of acuflavida, the lack of exchange of banded individuals, the contrast in breeding seasons (austral vs. boreal summers),!
and the suite of structural differences between the austral populations and typical acuflavida, this variation cannot reasonably be attributed to introgression of genes for acuflavida-like bill color."

(2) in contrast, northern acuflavida is almost always black-billed after early immaturity, such that as recently as 2000, P. A. Buckley and I were unable to find even one documented instance of a breeding adult acuflavida with extensive yellow elements on the bill beyond the usual yellow tip--just a very instances of mere traces of yellow along the gape or the edges of the mandibular ramus. This certainly does not mean that variants more closely approaching the appearance of eurygnatha never occur, but the general failure to detect them given a huge amount of banding and general birding effort implies that they must be near the greatest extremity of rarity. Thus Mark's birds are of the greatest interest, representing something that people have been looking for for a long time without success.

But even so, these genuinely intermediate-looking birds appear to be rarer in the USA than are birds closely resembling eurygnatha, of which there are on the order of ten documented records (maybe a few more--I haven't looked into this in a few years). It is for this reason that I still think that it is better to regard such birds as likely vagrants, rather than as local variants. This course has the operational advantage of facilitating record-keeping.

(3) the situation in the Caribbean is exceedingly complex and furthermore very dynamic. Many of the intermediate-looking individuals in that region are surely intergrades, but there's every reason to expect that this phenotype should occur (a) regularly among more or less pure Cayenne Tern colonies there--at least as frequently as they occur among Austral breeders, but probably much more frequently, owing to gene flow from acuflavida; and (b) increasingly frequently among the southernmost more or less pure colonies of acuflavida--i.e., much more frequently than they have historically among northern acuflavida.

Thus, I would argue that the status of Mark's birds is really ambiguous. They could very easily be intergrades from the Caribbean; but they could easily be vagrant Cayenne Terns because, especially in the Caribbean, bill pattern appears to be relatively variable, even apart from recent intergradation; and finally, they could plausibly be the rare local variants of acuflavida that we expect must occur at some rate--a rate that appears to have been exceedingly low historically, but a rate that might perhaps be increasing.

*This paper can be accessed at:

http://www.nybirds.org/KBsearc...

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore, NY



________________________________
Register today for Curtains Up! the inaugural presentation of the Geraldo Rivera Lecture Series>

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Subject: photos of Cayenne Terns from Brazil
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 14:10 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
By the way, there are tons of photos on wikiaves of Cayenne Terns, and you
can appreciate the variation in bills even in southern Brazilian
populations.

http://www.wikiaves.com.br/556...



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com




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Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) A...
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 13:15 pm
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Hi All,

Thanks for all comments especially Alvaro’s one who took a lot of effort to
present his point. Before I respond to some of his thoughts I want to
point a few extra observations first so these won't get lost in the text.

We do not have banding project studies that I am aware of to show any
example of Cabot’s like parents producing intermediates on nesting grounds in
North America but only from time to time very rare records of such
intermediates showing up here and there. The Martin Reid’s page is a great example –
from what I can see he takes a lot of effort to collect photographs of
interesting birds not only found by him but also photos taken by others and he
seems to spend a lot of time trying to obtain photos of birds found by
others. So we can say his photo collection is above the average in sample
size. In all his effort for so many years he produced one record which I will
discuss in the moment. I will not go too deep into juvenile Cabot’s Tern
bill coloration as anybody can produce many photos of great variation
including practically all-yellow bills in the early stages and having
considerably large amount of yellow in later stages. The question is how long some
individuals can retain this extra yellow in bill areas what normally become
black. Something what I did not include in my original post (already long
enough) was an interesting observation that in ‘typical’ intermediates from
Cayenne population (again see extensive collection of photos in Hayes, 2004)
proximal and medial parts of tomia and close area around of outside bill
(in both maxilla and mandible) – especially medial parts – are black. This
coloration pattern applied to my Cayenne-type turn #1 (and obviously with
so much black in the bill to bird #2 as well); on both sides of the bill
even that one side has much less black than the other one. Now if you take a
look at the Reid’s tern photo you will see that tomium (maxilla) and
narrow proximal bill area are yellow. These pattern generally matches bill color
changes in juveniles that can be seen in juvenile Cabot’s he included on
the same page. But we do not have too many examples of intermediate birds
from North America to draw any serious onclusion. So how long bill
coloration transition can last? Again we do not have studies on banded Cabot’s Terns
of known age. My conclusion is that indeed here, in his example, we might
have a case of prolonged bill coloration transition. And again I would
like to see this bird banded to know its exact age and to see what will happen
in the future to have a base for any serious conclusion. Also, a great
moment to mention this, I have a problem with so called eBird ‘confirmed record
’ policy. Unfortunately these records do not show up but I will bet there
are many interesting records buried there that I would love to see even
just for comparison. Terns seem to generate very low interest so nobody really
cares. On the other hand gulls are quite popular and misidentified gulls
are ‘confirmed’ quite often. Just take a look at the adult California Gull
recently reported in Galveston and even with misidentified photo it was ‘
confirmed’ so not only every day alert include records of this bird but, I
will bet you again, many people take special trip to try to see it. I take a
Galveston ferry trips on regular basis so see if this American Herring Gull
(true with odd leg coloration but still not matching yellow-greenish CAGU
legs; and other traits as well) do not match quite perfectly photos and
descriptions entered in eBird as a CAGU.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/ameri...

If seems that I overestimated my time available to write this reply; I will
need to do a second part as I value Alvaro’s reply and want to discuss a
few points with him. Perhaps this evening or tomorrow. In meantime, I hope,
there will be a few more interesting opinions posted.

Cheers,

Mark
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Subject: A marginal record of Cayenne Tern
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 10:47 am
From: I.A.McLaren AT dal.ca
 
All:


Might note that an all-yellow-billed tern was ID'd as a Cayenne Tern by an experienced birder on the s. tip of Nova Scotia, 26 Oct 2005. Alas, no photo obtained.? This was in the aftermath of Hurricane Earl, which moved rapidly from the Gulf of Mexico to Nova Scotia laden with trans-Gulf landbird migrants and seabirds, including all the expected "southern" terns. Alas, no photo obtained.


Ian McLaren

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Subject: Presumably 2 Caye nne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) April 9, 2015 Texa s
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 10:08 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Mark

Two things go on here. One is that some species of Thalasseus have variable bill colors. The tendency is for pale billed populations (Cayenne and Elegant) to show black on the bill every so often. The other situation is that Caribbean populations are clinal, Sandwich like in the north, Cayenne like in the south with a significant area of intermediacy. So both of these situations create birds with intermediate bill coloration.
The southern breeding population of Cayenne (Argentina-Uruguay-Brazil) is yellow billed, but every so often a bird with dark on the bill shows up. Since this is well away from the direct influence of Sandwich type birds, one can class it as variation. Similarly in Elegant, even publications that have come out suggesting various hybrids in breeding islands in Mexico are probably in error. Most of these are likely individual variants. Here is the most extreme case I have found in California:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
Note that in South America, Cayenne only occurs on the Atlantic. On the Pacific side al are Sandwich. I am not sure where they breed, these may only be non-breeding birds in the Pacific.
Given your photos, and those from Martin, I think a rarer situation occurs in Sandwich (Cabot's if you prefer) where a few have restricted black.
Finally, given that Cayenne is defined by a fully yellow bill. I think that any bird identified as Cayenne needs to have a fully yellow bill.

Take care,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:48 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –Texas

Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –
Texas Upper Coast; Galveston County

Hi All,

Published Cayenne Tern records in North America are quite scarce. Only a few records and only single birds mostly found in North Carolina. Same in eBird database; it shows mostly published records. Entered are records from North Carolina and single records in four other states: Virginia (no photo and description say “rather” adult than juvenile Sandwich [yellow billed fledglings are quite common, at least on Texas shore; pers. obs.] – summarizing that this record is tentative), New York (published record), Louisiana (photo taken but not available to check, description included) and two records in Texas (apparently of the same bird; two locations close to each other, seen a week apart; no photo or description but for some reason confirmed by eBird). I read with interest Florida Records Committee reports about one as they called Cayenne-type tern found in 2012. It seems that they suspect hybrid possibility in every Cayenne even with all yellow bills. To my kno!
wledge in Texas nobody even report/review subspecies so no need to worry. As races of any bird, no matter how ‘exotic’ they might be, are not on a birders’ tick list and anybody with minimal effort can tick off a Cabot’s around here there is no special interest to either keep checking flocks of hundreds/thousands Cabot’s Terns or chase one. As I have a special interest in terns any Cayenne or Cayenne-type tern vagrant always will be a very interesting find, at least to me.

So here we are; according to Junge and Voous (1955) Cayenne Terns from Caribbean populations may show considerable black on the bill while all-yellow bills predominate in the southern part of the breeding range in South America. Olsen and Larsson (1995) note that Cayenne is as Sandwich Tern acuflavida, but bill yellow, varying from orange to straw-yellow, often with darker central areas. They also regard phenotypically intermediate individuals, with the basal two-thirds or more of the bill black (thus approaching the condition in acuflavida), as referable to eurygnatha. Included photos (numbers 57-59 and 71 analyzed by Mitra and Buckley (2000) that also included excellent review of all published papers) show considerable variation in bill color and structure, even within the same flock. Major bill color-states (not discrete, but variable) include black with a yellow tip, black with yellow blotches, greenish-yellow with black blotches, orange-yellow with black blotc!
hes, pure greenish-yellow, and pure orange (red). Similarly, bill structure varies from as slender as acuflavida to almost as heavy as maxima, and from essentially straight to conspicuously drooping, but none of this variation has been critically dissected by sex, age, or latitude heeding area.

Hayes (2004) in his paper included a few sets of photographs illustrating bill variations and also stated that “The taxonomic relationship between Sandwich and Cayenne Terns is poorly understood. If any reproductive isolating mechanism exists between the two taxa, it may be based on bill coloration or, perhaps more likely, postural and vocal displays (P A. Buckley, pers.
comm.). However, no behavioral differences between the taxa have been described. As for bill coloration, the crux of the issue is whether individuals with phenotypically "intermediate" bill coloration represent (1) variant (or even normal) phenotypes of Cayenne Tern, (2) the results of interbreeding between the two taxa, or (3) a mixture of both phenomena. A second crucial question is whether individuals indistinguishable from Sandwich Terns nesting in the southern Caribbean and eastern Brazil represent (1) Sandwich Terns or (2) variant Cayenne Tern phenotypes.

Perhaps I should mention that there are some private opinions posted on the web speculating that yellow with some black billed Sandwich Terns they claim to saw are, in their opinion, nothing else than Cabot’s with an aberrant bill – but … no photos were taken. If we are to take statements like that seriously than intermediate individuals here and in South America will ‘ become’ Cabot’s and if we reverse the approach why not all Cabot’s Terns are being Cayenne with aberrant bill. On the other hand, the later possibility, but only applied to some Cabot’s-like individuals in South American breeding colonies, was pointed by Hayes (2004) in form of the second crucial question in point 2 (see paragraph above).

So here I have a question that most likely is never going to be answered, or better said one answer is not going to be approved by all. Are the birds I saw from the South American race eurygnatha or they are Cabot's X Cayenne Tern hybrids with intermediate bill coloration? BTW from the point of my interest in terns I would love these birds to be a Cabot’s Terns with aberrant bills but as there is not, to my best knowledge, any published studies describing documented cases of such birds so I see this as an unlikely possibility. I remember reading somewhere on the web that a few Cabot’s with very little extra yellow spots were seen in North Carolina but even in those cases hybrid possibility was proposed as this area is known for Cayenne Terns to show up from time to time in the past so these vagrants could stay there and breed injecting their genes to Cabot’s population gene pool. In Texas I saw thousands of Cabot’s and never saw one before with anything su!
ggesting any extra yellow areas in the bill coloration. It might be worth to mention that every time I check tern flocks I am mostly looking at primaries and bills of as many birds as possible; for other reasons than trying to find a different species/race but it sometimes help with that as well. The Cayenne numbered #2 has only small patch of yellow (it is more like orange comparing to the bill tip coloration; this is characteristic to some Cayenne bill coloration) at the base of maxilla; no photos of other bill’s part were taken, from different angles, reason at the end of this post, but I assume bill coloration was similar on another side. I would like to know what coloration of the mandible ventral part is. Also bill tip coloration: in Cabot’
s there is a sharp defined border between yellow and black areas. As we can see in Cayenne #2 the maxilla tip yellow part ends farther from the bill tip than in mandible and there is no fine definition line between yellow and black but rather yellow smudges into the black area (also rather typical to Cayenne intermediates). Well, I have to admit that if I only found bird
#2 I will probably had a huge headache by now. The fact that both these terns were part of the same flock let me assume that they could come from the same wintering ground in the South and are traveling together. Both birds have bills coloration matching some individuals in photo collection of intermediates published by Hayes (2004).

Crude measurements of bill depth at the base indicate that Cayenne #1 bill has the same depth as one Cabot’s and is slightly broader compare to a couple other Cabot’s in the flock, and slightly shorter in total length in comparison to one (I have no other adequate photos taken to take more reasonable measurements).


Photos Cayenne #1

On the wing

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Between Cabot’s and other birds

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Comparison of bill structure and coloration with other Thalasseus terns I found in Texas

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Ventral bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of mandible ventral part Dorsal bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of maxilla dorsal part Lateral bill view to show distribution of the yellow and black coloration of maxilla and mandible lateral parts (right side having more black area than left one)

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Cayenne #2

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...


All these photos from above and several more can be check in one folder when following this link (to see composite photo in full resolution it might be necessary to click on ‘original’ under the photo if clicked in folder; links above are to full resolution)

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/cayen...

Note about sighting: This day was one of first few days when very large influx of migrating Cabot’s Tens occurred. With extreme high tide during part of that day birds had only a very few spots available to rest. Well, beaches are public and good people need a rest and relax. I usually try to find secluded places but you cannot expect that good birds will only show up in such places. It is a migration time so there are plenty of not only birds on the beaches but plenty of people as well. Unfortunately because of high tide and limited available resting spots these huge flocks of birds were easy to spook and some kept leaving the area when disturbed. Finally when too many people came to the beach and walkers, and moving vehicles were stressing birds too much the majority of birds left the area, so did I. Usually when the whole flock is spooked and fly away it will find spot to rest somewhere else and will not come back. I tried to relocate these terns during ne!
xt few days, including spots even far away (where I know terns like to
rest) – no success. Terns are on the move and only few of Cabot’s Terns will nest around here. It could be interesting if a few Cayenne Terns (hybrids, or whatever somebody wants to call them) start to nest here in Texas too so interbreeding with Cabot’s could take place right around the corner where I live.


Mark B Bartosik
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Subject: Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrid s)
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 9:10 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Dear all,
For those contemplating the recent post about this subject matter, here are some Sandwich-like terns from Texas. The first (adult) bird is not too dissimilar to the recent birds from Texas that are the main thrust of the recent post. The second bird is a HY photographed in late September, which seems late for such a large amount of retained juvenile bill color (and note that the color is orange, not yellow):

http://www.martinreid.com/Main...

Regards,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com






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Subject: Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabots x Cayenne hybrids) April 9, 2015 Texas
Date: Fri Apr 17 2015 0:41 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Presumably 2 Cayenne Terns (or Cabot’s x Cayenne hybrids) – April 9, 2015 –
Texas Upper Coast; Galveston County

Hi All,

Published Cayenne Tern records in North America are quite scarce. Only a
few records and only single birds mostly found in North Carolina. Same in
eBird database; it shows mostly published records. Entered are records from
North Carolina and single records in four other states: Virginia (no photo
and description say “rather” adult than juvenile Sandwich [yellow billed
fledglings are quite common, at least on Texas shore; pers. obs.] –
summarizing that this record is tentative), New York (published record), Louisiana
(photo taken but not available to check, description included) and two
records in Texas (apparently of the same bird; two locations close to each other,
seen a week apart; no photo or description but for some reason confirmed
by eBird). I read with interest Florida Records Committee reports about one
as they called Cayenne-type tern found in 2012. It seems that they suspect
hybrid possibility in every Cayenne even with all yellow bills. To my
knowledge in Texas nobody even report/review subspecies so no need to worry. As
races of any bird, no matter how ‘exotic’ they might be, are not on a
birders’ tick list and anybody with minimal effort can tick off a Cabot’s
around here there is no special interest to either keep checking flocks of
hundreds/thousands Cabot’s Terns or chase one. As I have a special interest
in terns any Cayenne or Cayenne-type tern vagrant always will be a very
interesting find, at least to me.

So here we are; according to Junge and Voous (1955) Cayenne Terns from
Caribbean populations may show considerable black on the bill while all-yellow
bills predominate in the southern part of the breeding range in South
America. Olsen and Larsson (1995) note that Cayenne is as Sandwich Tern
acuflavida, but bill yellow, varying from orange to straw-yellow, often with darker
central areas. They also regard phenotypically intermediate individuals,
with the basal two-thirds or more of the bill black (thus approaching the
condition in acuflavida), as referable to eurygnatha. Included photos
(numbers 57-59 and 71 analyzed by Mitra and Buckley (2000) that also included
excellent review of all published papers) show considerable variation in bill
color and structure, even within the same flock. Major bill color-states
(not discrete, but variable) include black with a yellow tip, black with
yellow blotches, greenish-yellow with black blotches, orange-yellow with black
blotches, pure greenish-yellow, and pure orange (red). Similarly, bill
structure varies from as slender as acuflavida to almost as heavy as maxima, and
from essentially straight to conspicuously drooping, but none of this
variation has been critically dissected by sex, age, or latitude heeding area.

Hayes (2004) in his paper included a few sets of photographs illustrating
bill variations and also stated that “The taxonomic relationship between
Sandwich and Cayenne Terns is poorly understood. If any reproductive isolating
mechanism exists between the two taxa, it may be based on bill coloration
or, perhaps more likely, postural and vocal displays (P A. Buckley, pers.
comm.). However, no behavioral differences between the taxa have been
described. As for bill coloration, the crux of the issue is whether individuals
with phenotypically "intermediate" bill coloration represent (1) variant (or
even normal) phenotypes of Cayenne Tern, (2) the results of interbreeding
between the two taxa, or (3) a mixture of both phenomena. A second crucial
question is whether individuals indistinguishable from Sandwich Terns
nesting in the southern Caribbean and eastern Brazil represent (1) Sandwich
Terns or (2) variant Cayenne Tern phenotypes.

Perhaps I should mention that there are some private opinions posted on
the web speculating that yellow with some black billed Sandwich Terns they
claim to saw are, in their opinion, nothing else than Cabot’s with an
aberrant bill – but … no photos were taken. If we are to take statements like
that seriously than intermediate individuals here and in South America will ‘
become’ Cabot’s and if we reverse the approach why not all Cabot’s Terns
are being Cayenne with aberrant bill. On the other hand, the later
possibility, but only applied to some Cabot’s-like individuals in South American
breeding colonies, was pointed by Hayes (2004) in form of the second crucial
question in point 2 (see paragraph above).

So here I have a question that most likely is never going to be answered,
or better said one answer is not going to be approved by all. Are the birds
I saw from the South American race eurygnatha or they are Cabot's X Cayenne
Tern hybrids with intermediate bill coloration? BTW from the point of my
interest in terns I would love these birds to be a Cabot’s Terns with
aberrant bills but as there is not, to my best knowledge, any published studies
describing documented cases of such birds so I see this as an unlikely
possibility. I remember reading somewhere on the web that a few Cabot’s with
very little extra yellow spots were seen in North Carolina but even in those
cases hybrid possibility was proposed as this area is known for Cayenne
Terns to show up from time to time in the past so these vagrants could stay
there and breed injecting their genes to Cabot’s population gene pool. In
Texas I saw thousands of Cabot’s and never saw one before with anything
suggesting any extra yellow areas in the bill coloration. It might be worth to
mention that every time I check tern flocks I am mostly looking at primaries
and bills of as many birds as possible; for other reasons than trying to
find a different species/race but it sometimes help with that as well. The
Cayenne numbered #2 has only small patch of yellow (it is more like orange
comparing to the bill tip coloration; this is characteristic to some Cayenne
bill coloration) at the base of maxilla; no photos of other bill’s part were
taken, from different angles, reason at the end of this post, but I assume
bill coloration was similar on another side. I would like to know what
coloration of the mandible ventral part is. Also bill tip coloration: in Cabot’
s there is a sharp defined border between yellow and black areas. As we can
see in Cayenne #2 the maxilla tip yellow part ends farther from the bill
tip than in mandible and there is no fine definition line between yellow and
black but rather yellow smudges into the black area (also rather typical
to Cayenne intermediates). Well, I have to admit that if I only found bird
#2 I will probably had a huge headache by now. The fact that both these
terns were part of the same flock let me assume that they could come from the
same wintering ground in the South and are traveling together. Both birds
have bills coloration matching some individuals in photo collection of
intermediates published by Hayes (2004).

Crude measurements of bill depth at the base indicate that Cayenne #1 bill
has the same depth as one Cabot’s and is slightly broader compare to a
couple other Cabot’s in the flock, and slightly shorter in total length in
comparison to one (I have no other adequate photos taken to take more
reasonable measurements).


Photos Cayenne #1

On the wing

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Between Cabot’s and other birds

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Comparison of bill structure and coloration with other Thalasseus terns I
found in Texas

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Ventral bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of mandible ventral part
Dorsal bill view to show mostly yellow coloration of maxilla dorsal part
Lateral bill view to show distribution of the yellow and black coloration
of maxilla and mandible lateral parts (right side having more black area
than left one)

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Cayenne #2

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...


All these photos from above and several more can be check in one folder
when following this link (to see composite photo in full resolution it might
be necessary to click on ‘original’ under the photo if clicked in folder;
links above are to full resolution)

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/cayen...

Note about sighting: This day was one of first few days when very large
influx of migrating Cabot’s Tens occurred. With extreme high tide during part
of that day birds had only a very few spots available to rest. Well,
beaches are public and good people need a rest and relax. I usually try to find
secluded places but you cannot expect that good birds will only show up in
such places. It is a migration time so there are plenty of not only birds
on the beaches but plenty of people as well. Unfortunately because of high
tide and limited available resting spots these huge flocks of birds were
easy to spook and some kept leaving the area when disturbed. Finally when too
many people came to the beach and walkers, and moving vehicles were
stressing birds too much the majority of birds left the area, so did I. Usually
when the whole flock is spooked and fly away it will find spot to rest
somewhere else and will not come back. I tried to relocate these terns during
next few days, including spots even far away (where I know terns like to
rest) – no success. Terns are on the move and only few of Cabot’s Terns will
nest around here. It could be interesting if a few Cayenne Terns (hybrids,
or whatever somebody wants to call them) start to nest here in Texas too so
interbreeding with Cabot’s could take place right around the corner where
I live.


Mark B Bartosik
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Mew Gull in Connecticut
Date: Thu Apr 16 2015 18:43 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
I'd bet on kam.  A significant article on these taxa will be coming out in
Dutch Birding soon.



On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Nick Bonomo wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> An interesting Mew Gull recently seen and photographed in CT, USA is
> being debated regarding subspecific identification. The feeling of
> myself and others is that this bird is of Asian origin. Any thoughts
> would be appreciated.
>
> Apparently the northeast US has become a crossroads for "Mew" Gulls of
> various forms, with records of canus, brachyrynchus, and apparent
> kamchatschensis over just the past few months alone. Fascinating
> stuff.
>
> Here are photos of the CT bird:
>
> http://www.shorebirder.com/201...
>
> Nick Bonomo
> Wallingford, CT
> www.shorebirder.com
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Mew Gull in Connecticut
Date: Thu Apr 16 2015 17:28 pm
From: nbonomo AT gmail.com
 
Hi all,

An interesting Mew Gull recently seen and photographed in CT, USA is
being debated regarding subspecific identification. The feeling of
myself and others is that this bird is of Asian origin. Any thoughts
would be appreciated.

Apparently the northeast US has become a crossroads for "Mew" Gulls of
various forms, with records of canus, brachyrynchus, and apparent
kamchatschensis over just the past few months alone. Fascinating
stuff.

Here are photos of the CT bird:
http://www.shorebirder.com/201...

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT
www.shorebirder.com

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
Date: Fri Apr 10 2015 1:04 am
From: paul.r.wood AT uk.pwc.com
 
I will be out of the office from 10/04/2015 until 13/04/2015.

I will respond to your message when I return.




Note: This is an automated response to your message BIRDWG01 Digest - 8 Apr
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Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 19:54 pm
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
Doug, although it may seem to no effect for the time being, I think records
committees should evaluate such dark birds. At the very least it could
contribute to a database of photos (and written descriptions) that may one
day be put to use to paint a broader picture. I think it's of less value
for an observer to pass up a very dark bird (or a very pale bird) and not
make any special note of exception to what they've seen. Of course no
committee should feel compelled to assign a subspecies to any individual,
but rather, simply annotate the record with an asterisk (i.e., *nominate
fuscus-like features..., *intermedius-like features..., etc).


Amar Ayyash
Frankfort, Illinois

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Doug Faulkner wrote:

> Hello all:
>
> First off, my apologies to Alan et al. for being U.S.-centric in my
> original post - bad habit of mine. It was certainly not my intent to
> exclude the rest of the New World.
>
> The only other photo available from the photographer is uploaded now. It's
> the original, uncropped version of one of the earlier two photos I posted
> so it may not be of much more help. There were apparently 4-5 Lesser
> Black-backeds at that reservoir and this bird was distinctly much darker
> than the others.
>
> On a side note, if these darker-backed individuals can/should not be
> assigned to subspecies, is there value for a bird records committee to keep
> records of such individuals? Is there anything we can learn by tracking
> these darker-backed birds if we are not sure of what they are or from where
> they might have originated?
>
> Thank you all for the feedback. It's much appreciated.
>
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Phil Davis wrote:
>
> > All:
> >
> > This is just a related minor anecdote ...
> >
> > Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul Pisano
> > refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early 1990s), I
> > remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's Montgomery
> County.
> > As I recall it was a field, not a dump or reservoir. Already present and
> > looking at the gulls though scopes were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem
> > Maane, members of the MD/DC Records Committee. They pointed out to me two
> > gulls in the group that were fairly close together [and in the same
> > sun-orientation]. They said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls
> but
> > they were of two different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly
> > remember seeing the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I
> > don't recall any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill
> > markings, except that the back color was very different between the two
> > birds, one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker
> than
> > the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark bird
> was
> > "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the time was that
> > they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely rare or virtually
> > unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem were very experienced
> with
> > gulls, as our area had just been through the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull
> > records experience. Harvey was a world birder, member and Chair of the
> > MD/DC Records Committee and Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the
> > committee.
> >
> > I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare; however, I
> > was not experienced enough at the time to document what they had just
> shown
> > me and, as a birding community, we were not so much into documenting
> > subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that this observation was never
> > documented for posterity. No other birders were present at the time and
> no
> > one had a camera with them. We also did not have the instant
> communications
> > that we do now.
> >
> > Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually have
> > been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???
> >
> > Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown Reservoir
> > ... ???
> >
> > Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least at
> > the superficial level.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
> >
> >> Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much
> >> too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn't
> try
> >> to put a subspecific name on it. This was many years ago, and I never
> took
> >> the time to take notes or pictures (didn't have a camera at the time),
> nor
> >> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee. This was at the
> >> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
> >> Yellow-legged Gull was found). So take that for what it' worth.
> >>
> >>
> > ==================================
> > Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
> > mailto:PDavis@ix.netcom.com
> > ==================================
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Colorado LBBG - correction
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 19:00 pm
From: bruce.mactavish1 AT nf.sympatico.ca
 
The upper parts colour of LBBGs has long intrigued and troubled people in North America. I think, as Martin Reid also suggested, is that many of the North American birds are a little bit darker than the classic pale British graellsii. Every so often here in Newfoundland I see an adult that is a little paler than the rest and figure this is like the real British graellsii often illustrated in British bird guides. I am not too concerned about splitting LBBGs into graellsii or intermedius. It almost seems a waste of time.  They seem to blend together with only difference being the shade of upper parts colour.  The fuscus LBBG is a different story. These are not only very black but also a different shaped bird being long and sleek with small head, thin body and narrow wings.

The bird we saw and photographed in St. John's over the winter of 2004/2005 and shown here in Martin's site http://www.martinreid.com/Gull... and then seen again the following winter with photographs by Kirk Zufelt on his site http://larusology.blogspot.ca/... was very different LBBG. The colour of the upper parts was a dry, deep black like black soot. But the more striking feature was the shape of the bird. Small headed, thin body, long very narrow wings, odd shaped bill - these features along with other subtleties made this bird feel like a different bird altogether from our usual LBBGs.

I thought our photos taken in March 2005 would be enough to clinch it as a Baltic Gull. I sent the pictures to several European experts and hit a brick wall everywhere. No one would say it was a Baltic Gull without seeing a band on its leg proving it had been banded as a nestling within the breeding range of Baltic Gull.

I have since read a few articles on the complicated LBBG scene in the Netherlands and that part of Europe. It is a different scene from just across the way in Britain where graellsii rule and darker backed potential intermedius and potential Baltic Gulls stand out.

I have seen many photos of Baltic Gulls, I have even seen a few dozen adult Baltic Gulls during spring migration in eastern Poland. I have seen many LBBGs in North America, Ireland and Britain. I still feel the 2004/2005 bird in Newfoundland best fits Baltic Gull. But I respect the experience and wisdom of the European gull people that have said - No Band, No Go.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Angus Wilson
Sent: April-09-15 2:24 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Colorado LBBG - correction

That's better! The original link to birds from La Marque, Texas wasn't convincing as fuscus-like ;))

At first glance, the Halifax/Dartmouth bird shown in the new link seems a reasonable match for nominate fuscus (Baltic Gull) based on the very long wings and the black of the mantle being almost the same as the black primaries. I thought the bird photographed by Bruce McTavish in Newfoundland also looked very interesting. If I'm not mistaken Baltic Gulls at any age should look relatively small and distinctively long-winged compared to other large gulls including other 'Lesser Black-backed' types.

Some of the 'darker Lesser Black-backed Gulls' discussed on this forum have been perceived as being larger than expected. How does this relate to perceptions of graellsii, intermedius and 'Iberian' gulls by European observers? Could it be that the population now colonizing eastern North America (presumably from breeding sites in Greenland) was seeded by birds from more than one European population (in other words not pure graellsii) hence the puzzling appearance of some individuals?

Lastly, in the context of coastal New York my impression is that there is a decline in the number of Lesser Black-backed Gulls that I'd describe as dark compared to my expectations of graellsii. Just a gut impression that I can't defend with data but thought I'd throw it into the mix. We've also seen changes in the frequency and habitat preferences of birds during the past 20 years.

--
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 18:35 pm
From: amarayyash AT gmail.com
 
Peter and all, regarding the age of the Newfoundland gull on Martin's
website:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

I think since the assumption here is that this "may" be a nominate fuscus
candidate, then it would better fit a 2nd cycle (2nd winter), considering
this taxon generally looks rather adult-like by the end of the 2nd prebasic
molt (similar to Yellow-footed in some respects).

I think the brown tinge to the wing coverts, the thinner white edge to the
tertials, relatively retarded bill pattern and small mirror on the
outermost mirror all fit better for a 2nd cycle (despite what look like
thick-white inner primary tips and an adult-like tail pattern).

Would love to get a European perspective on this bird.

Best,
Amar Ayyash
Frankfort, Illinois


On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:

> I'm curious as to the age designation as "second winter" for the
> Newfoundland bird
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp40.html
> I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced looking plumage than other
> gulls due to more-extensive prealternate molts (including replacement of
> secondaries here), but pattern to the inner (basic) primaries, lack of
> black in the tail, etc. make me wonder if this was a third-cycle
> (third-winter) bird that year.
>
> Peter
>
> At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>
>> Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too- I
>> photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St. John’s
>> Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce and multiple
>> observers.
>> The link to the pics is below.
>>
>> http://larusology.blogspot.ca/...
>> in-newfoundland.html > ca/2009/11/possible-baltic-gull-in-newfoundland.html>
>>
>> I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic Gull
>> without photographing a ringed bird.
>>
>> Kirk Zufelt
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 18:34 pm
From: zebrilus AT gmail.com
 
Hello all:

First off, my apologies to Alan et al. for being U.S.-centric in my
original post - bad habit of mine. It was certainly not my intent to
exclude the rest of the New World.

The only other photo available from the photographer is uploaded now. It's
the original, uncropped version of one of the earlier two photos I posted
so it may not be of much more help. There were apparently 4-5 Lesser
Black-backeds at that reservoir and this bird was distinctly much darker
than the others.

On a side note, if these darker-backed individuals can/should not be
assigned to subspecies, is there value for a bird records committee to keep
records of such individuals? Is there anything we can learn by tracking
these darker-backed birds if we are not sure of what they are or from where
they might have originated?

Thank you all for the feedback. It's much appreciated.

Doug Faulkner
Colorado, USA

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Phil Davis wrote:

> All:
>
> This is just a related minor anecdote ...
>
> Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul Pisano
> refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early 1990s), I
> remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's Montgomery County.
> As I recall it was a field, not a dump or reservoir. Already present and
> looking at the gulls though scopes were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem
> Maane, members of the MD/DC Records Committee. They pointed out to me two
> gulls in the group that were fairly close together [and in the same
> sun-orientation]. They said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls but
> they were of two different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly
> remember seeing the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I
> don't recall any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill
> markings, except that the back color was very different between the two
> birds, one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker than
> the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark bird was
> "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the time was that
> they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely rare or virtually
> unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem were very experienced with
> gulls, as our area had just been through the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull
> records experience. Harvey was a world birder, member and Chair of the
> MD/DC Records Committee and Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the
> committee.
>
> I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare; however, I
> was not experienced enough at the time to document what they had just shown
> me and, as a birding community, we were not so much into documenting
> subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that this observation was never
> documented for posterity. No other birders were present at the time and no
> one had a camera with them. We also did not have the instant communications
> that we do now.
>
> Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually have
> been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???
>
> Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown Reservoir
> ... ???
>
> Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least at
> the superficial level.
>
> Phil
>
>
> At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
>
>> Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much
>> too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn't try
>> to put a subspecific name on it. This was many years ago, and I never took
>> the time to take notes or pictures (didn't have a camera at the time), nor
>> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee. This was at the
>> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
>> Yellow-legged Gull was found). So take that for what it' worth.
>>
>>
> ==================================
> Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
> mailto:PDavis@ix.netcom.com
> ==================================
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 17:17 pm
From: jeaniron AT sympatico.ca
 
Here are two more photos of the Baltic-like Lesser Black-backed Gull from Newfoundland. At the time (2007) Bruce Mactavish told us it was probably the subspecies intermedius based on information from Europeans who had examined his photos. Third photo shows a graellsii for comparison.
http://jeaniron.ca/Trips/Newfo...

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 4:02 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland

I'm curious as to the age designation as "second winter" for the Newfoundland bird http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced looking plumage than other gulls due to more-extensive prealternate molts (including replacement of secondaries here), but pattern to the inner (basic) primaries, lack of black in the tail, etc. make me wonder if this was a third-cycle (third-winter) bird that year.

Peter

At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too-
>I photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St.
>John’s Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce
>and multiple observers.
>The link to the pics is below.
>
>http://larusology.blogspot.ca/...
>and.html
>land.html>
>
>I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic
>Gull without photographing a ringed bird.
>
>Kirk Zufelt
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 15:39 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I'm curious as to the age designation as "second
winter" for the Newfoundland bird
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
I realize L. f. fuscus can show more advanced
looking plumage than other gulls due to
more-extensive prealternate molts (including
replacement of secondaries here), but pattern to
the inner (basic) primaries, lack of black in the
tail, etc. make me wonder if this was a
third-cycle (third-winter) bird that year.

Peter

At 12:19 PM 4/9/2015, Kirk Zufelt wrote:
>Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took
>the pics you linked too- I photographed what may
>well have been the same bird at the St. John’s
>Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi
>Lake by Bruce and multiple observers.
>The link to the pics is below.
>
>http://larusology.blogspot.ca/...
>
>
>I believe this is the closest you could ever get
>to a genuine Baltic Gull without photographing a ringed bird.
>
>Kirk Zufelt
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: L.f.fuscus from Newfoundland
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 14:44 pm
From: zufelt_k AT shaw.ca
 
Angus- The year after (Jan14/2007) Bruce took the pics you linked too- I photographed what may well have been the same bird at the St. John’s Landfill. It was later seen again at Quidi Vidi Lake by Bruce and multiple observers.
The link to the pics is below.

http://larusology.blogspot.ca/...

I believe this is the closest you could ever get to a genuine Baltic Gull without photographing a ringed bird.

Kirk Zufelt
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 13:07 pm
From: pdavis AT ix.netcom.com
 
All:

This is just a related minor anecdote ...

Also, many years ago (possibly during the same season that Paul
Pisano refers to, which I would place in the late 1980s or early
1990s), I remember stopping at a gull spot somewhere in Maryland's
Montgomery County. As I recall it was a field, not a dump or
reservoir. Already present and looking at the gulls though scopes
were the late Harvey Mudd and Willem Maane, members of the MD/DC
Records Committee. They pointed out to me two gulls in the group that
were fairly close together [and in the same sun-orientation]. They
said that the two were Lesser Black-backed Gulls but they were of two
different subspecies. Through their scope I clearly remember seeing
the yellow-legs and dark backs. So many years later, I don't recall
any other field marks, such as head streaking or bill markings,
except that the back color was very different between the two birds,
one appeared to be virtually jet black, very noticeably darker than
the other bird. I distinctly remember that they said that the dark
bird was "apparently a [nominate] fuscus." My recollection from the
time was that they knew that the nominate fuscus was either extremely
rare or virtually unknown in North America. Both Harvey and Willem
were very experienced with gulls, as our area had just been through
the DC and MD Yellow-legged Gull records experience. Harvey was a
world birder, member and Chair of the MD/DC Records Committee and
Willem, a Dutchman, was also a member of the committee.

I remember thinking that I had just seen something quite rare;
however, I was not experienced enough at the time to document what
they had just shown me and, as a birding community, we were not so
much into documenting subspecies back then. I am pretty sure that
this observation was never documented for posterity. No other birders
were present at the time and no one had a camera with them. We also
did not have the instant communications that we do now.

Could this really have been a fuscus or could the fuscus actually
have been an intermedius based on what we know now ... ???

Was this the same bird that Paul Pisano saw at the Georgetown
Reservoir ... ???

Again, just an anecdote, but one I remember pretty clearly, at least
at the superficial level.

Phil


At 22:25 04/08/2015, Paul Pisano wrote:
>Like Martin, I've seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull,
>much too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I
>wouldn't try to put a subspecific name on it. This was many years
>ago, and I never took the time to take notes or pictures (didn't
>have a camera at the time), nor did I submit it to the Maryland/DC
>Records Committee. This was at the infamous Georgetown Reservoir in
>Washington, DC (where the first NA Yellow-legged Gull was
>found). So take that for what it' worth.
>

==================================
Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA
mailto:PDavis@ix.netcom.com
==================================

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado LBBG - correction
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 12:09 pm
From: oceanwanderers AT gmail.com
 
That's better! The original link to birds from La Marque, Texas wasn't
convincing as fuscus-like ;))

At first glance, the Halifax/Dartmouth bird shown in the new link seems a
reasonable match for nominate fuscus (Baltic Gull) based on the very long
wings and the black of the mantle being almost the same as the black
primaries. I thought the bird photographed by Bruce McTavish in
Newfoundland also
looked very interesting. If I'm not mistaken Baltic Gulls at any age should
look relatively small and distinctively long-winged compared to other large
gulls including other 'Lesser Black-backed' types.

Some of the 'darker Lesser Black-backed Gulls' discussed on this forum have
been perceived as being larger than expected. How does this relate to
perceptions of graellsii, intermedius and 'Iberian' gulls by European
observers? Could it be that the population now colonizing eastern North
America (presumably from breeding sites in Greenland) was seeded by birds
from more than one European population (in other words not pure graellsii)
hence the puzzling appearance of some individuals?

Lastly, in the context of coastal New York my impression is that there is a
decline in the number of Lesser Black-backed Gulls that I'd describe as
dark compared to my expectations of graellsii. Just a gut impression that I
can't defend with data but thought I'd throw it into the mix. We've also
seen changes in the frequency and habitat preferences of birds during the
past 20 years.

--
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspo...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado LBBG - correction
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 11:12 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
The correct link for the NS, Canada LBBG that is within range for fuscus...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 10:40 am
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Here are a few darker LBBGs from Texas:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...


- and a couple from Canada that are within range for fuscus...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/lbbgp24.html

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...


- and keep in mind that the famous "F5" Maine Appledore gull is fairly dark-mantled:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

Here is a photo from Florida showing the variation often found when good numbers of LBBGs are present:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...


- and lastly, an example of how mantle color can appear much darker than it really is if there is no benchmark species in the photo! This first adult looks pretty dark - until you compare it to the Laughing Gulls around it...

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...


Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 7:32 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
I have  photographed this year 2  different very dark LBBG, too dark to
be graellsii. My photos are not nearly as good as yours Doug, they are
distant. http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/e... The first set is
from 2 days ago are digiscoped and the subject bird was not very
cooperative since it stayed in the back of the pack. I seriously considered
KELP for a few but the white on the trailing edge is thin. Way too big to
be fuscus, so intermedius-type seems plausible. This bird was bigger than
what I would expect from a typical LBBG also. The one single shot from
March on the Merrimac also distant record shot for ebird ( rare at this
location) was as you can see typical size, but interesting also, no open
wing shots of that bird.

Here is a gallery of much better photos
http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/_... , most
are from Salisbury state park in Mass. They all seem really dark to me but
the gallery “presumed not graellsii” has many angles open wing shots etc.
The group of October birds is very interesting to me because they seem so
bulky, and their heads have no streaking for Oct. and the bills are
serious, almost GBBG like and seem to have spots on P10 as opposed to a
mirror. Very little white in wing. The spot on P10 seems to possibly be a
shared feature in the really dark ones. I think there is a lot more of
these types out there than we realize.

FYI - on Nantucket ( an expensive place to go unfortunately) large groups
of LBBG stage, not sure if they actually winter here but it would be a
great place to conduct a study, banding radio chips etc. I am hopeful this
fall I will be able to get there and spend a day with them. I am not aware
of anyone who has seriously photographed this group. Where do they come
from? Where are they going? Are they all the same sub-species? So many
questions.
Suzanne Sullivan
Wilmington, MA


On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Paul Pisano wrote:

> Like Martin, I’ve seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much too
> dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn’t try to
> put a subspecific name on it. This was many years ago, and I never took
> the time to take notes or pictures (didn’t have a camera at the time), nor
> did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee. This was at the
> infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA
> Yellow-legged Gull was found). So take that for what it’s worth.
>
> Good birding,
> Paul Pisano
> Arlington, VA
>
> > On Apr 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Doug Faulkner wrote:
> >
> > Hello all:
> >
> > The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> > intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013. I would appreciate
> any
> > feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on
> the
> > available photos found here:
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> >
> > Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> > LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in
> the
> > U.S.?
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Doug Faulkner
> > Colorado, USA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 4:54 am
From: pjw42 AT waitrose.com
 
Noah and All,

I strongly suspect Eurasian Collared x Ringed Turtle-dove (or as we
would call it, Barbary Dove). I saw a range of these in Mallorca and the
Canary Islands some years ago when decaocto first reached them and met
established populations of 'risoria'. They seem to hybridise for a while
until the larger bird outcompetes the smaller, which disappears. The
Phoenix bird, with its mixed characteristics, would certainly not have
been out of place among the hybrids I saw.

Apart from the dark tail tips, of course. There does, however, seem to
be some feather damage associated with the tips and I wonder whether it
has picked up some external staining somewhere.

Peter

On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 00:34 -0500, Noah Arthur wrote:
> It was too big for Ringed Turtle-dove (same size as Eurasian Collared,
> although perhaps slenderer). Also, the black outer webs at the base of the
> tail is wrong for Ringed Turtle (more like Eurasian Collared, although the
> bird was definitely not pure Collared).
>
> What I forgot to mention in my first message was the bird's call: a
> two-note coo, similar but not identical to the pet Ringed Turtle-doves I
> used to have -- and unlike Eurasian Collared.
>
> Noah
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Floyd Hayes wrote:
>
> > Noah,
> >
> > Why not a Ringed Turtle-Dove?
> >
> > Floyd
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> > At Apr 8, 2015, 6:41:32 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> > A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
> > games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
> > (near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
> > Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
> > and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
> > webs).
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> >
> > The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
> > dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?
> >
> > Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
> >
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
Date: Thu Apr 9 2015 0:46 am
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
It was too big for Ringed Turtle-dove (same size as Eurasian Collared,
although perhaps slenderer). Also, the black outer webs at the base of the
tail is wrong for Ringed Turtle (more like Eurasian Collared, although the
bird was definitely not pure Collared).

What I forgot to mention in my first message was the bird's call: a
two-note coo, similar but not identical to the pet Ringed Turtle-doves I
used to have -- and unlike Eurasian Collared.

Noah

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Floyd Hayes wrote:

> Noah,
>
> Why not a Ringed Turtle-Dove?
>
> Floyd
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> At Apr 8, 2015, 6:41:32 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
> games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
> (near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
> Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
> and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
> webs).
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
> dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Wed Apr 8 2015 22:12 pm
From: cheep.paul AT gmail.com
 
Like Martin, I’ve seen 1 extremely dark Lesser Black-backed Gull, much too dark to be a graellsii, so presumably intermedius, but I wouldn’t try to put a subspecific name on it.  This was many years ago, and I never took the time to take notes or pictures (didn’t have a camera at the time), nor did I submit it to the Maryland/DC Records Committee.  This was at the infamous Georgetown Reservoir in Washington, DC (where the first NA Yellow-legged Gull was found).  So take that for what it’s worth.

Good birding,
Paul Pisano
Arlington, VA

> On Apr 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Doug Faulkner wrote:
>
> Hello all:
>
> The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013. I would appreciate any
> feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
> available photos found here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
> U.S.?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Phoenix, AZ mystery dove
Date: Wed Apr 8 2015 21:17 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
A couple weeks ago, while I was in Phoenix for Spring Training baseball
games, I found an unusual Streptopelia collared-dove at Phoenix College
(near downtown). The bird is very pale but as large as Eurasian
Collared-dove, with several odd features including a black tail-tip (!!)
and an Iceland Gull-like primary pattern (dark outer webs, pale inner
webs).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

The tail pattern seems way off for Eurasian Collared or any North American
dove... What do you all think? Some strange escapee?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Wed Apr 8 2015 20:22 pm
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Here in Texas I've seen at least 6 or 7 birds that seem too dark for graellsii or even Dutch Intergrades; none have been processed by the TBRC (partly because records of this kind are not sought by the TBRC).  Most of the LBBGs seen in Texas up until a few years ago were notable by being darker than an average graellsii, i.e. obviously darker than nearby Laughing Gulls as the same angle.  However in recent years,as the overall numbers seen in Texas has increased, a few paler birds have been found, with some about the same mantle shade as Laughing Gull.
Keep in mind that in a vagrant context, it does not have to merely be dark enough to fall within the mantle range of intermedius - it has to be dark enough to fall outside the range of the darkest Dutch intergrades...
BTW regarding the Colorado bird - are these the only two images avaIlable? If so, then assessing the actual mantle shade is almost impossible, since the angles at which the bird is standing relative to the camera are the angles where mantle darkness is exaggerated - indeed the tone looks to be almost black in these images.. The true tone could be quite a bit lighter, if seen perpendicular to the camera/viewer and in neutral lighting.
Martin
---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Apr 8, 2015, at Apr 8, 3:11 PM, Doug Faulkner wrote:

> Hello all:
>
> The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
> intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013. I would appreciate any
> feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
> available photos found here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
> LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
> U.S.?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Doug Faulkner
> Colorado, USA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Wed Apr 8 2015 15:45 pm
From: wormington AT juno.com
 
Doug and all,

Unfortunately Point Pelee (Ontario) is not in the United States, so not sure if you would be interested in this information per your request below.

At Point Pelee we have a total of six (6) records of birds that are considered to be intermedius, or at least showing the characteristics of that subspecies. The first was in 1983. Records are for spring and fall, with one interesting record of a bright alternate adult on the relatively late date of May 17, 2010.

Alan Wormington
Leamington, Ontario






---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Doug Faulkner
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:11:17 -0500

Hello all:

The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013. I would appreciate any
feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
available photos found here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
U.S.?

Thank you.

Doug Faulkner
Colorado, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Colorado intermedius-type Lesser Black-backed Gull
Date: Wed Apr 8 2015 15:29 pm
From: zebrilus AT gmail.com
 
Hello all:

The CO Bird Records Committee is reviewing documentation of an adult
intermedius-type LBBG photographed in January 2013. I would appreciate any
feedback on whether this bird can be identified to subspecies based on the
available photos found here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Also, does anyone have a good idea of how many of these very dark-backed
LBBGs have been observed, as well as their geographic distribution, in the
U.S.?

Thank you.

Doug Faulkner
Colorado, USA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
Date: Sun Apr 5 2015 10:17 am
From: may6 AT cornell.edu
 
Kudos to the authors! As their work still supports though, there are still plenty of obvious "looking" Hoary Redpolls. Also, the researchers were quick to note, "they still only sampled less than 1% of the total genome."  As most things in science are, this is an "evolving" story.

Matt Young
Ithaca, NY

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Jeff Holbrook
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2015 10:50 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

There are certainly valid and accepted records of Swainson's Hawks and Oregon Juncos. I don't dispute that at all. They are at least valid species. Given enough time, each state's list will be similar . :) What I don't like is that every time someone sees a dark Red-tailed Hawk (a highly variable species to begin with!) or slightly different colored junco in the flocks at their feeders, they claim to have a special bird. Trust me, most sightings are wishful thinking. Also, just to point out, birds that have been claimed to be hoary types and common types have been noted from the same nest since at least the 1970's. The hoary thing should have gone away decades ago but no! And just to make a point, there have been how many accepted sightings of "hoary" Redpolls since the 1970's? Don't make the mistake that just because it's accepted that it is correct. Question everything. :)


Jeff Holbrook
Corning, NY

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Guris
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 20:10
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

FYI, there have been 42 accepted records of Swainson's Hawks in New Jersey since 1996, including several which were banded. They have been nearly annual since 2001.

There have been 13 accepted records of "Oregon" Junco.


-PAG


--







*Paul A. GurisSee Life PaulagicsPO Box 161Green Lane, PA 18054215-234-6805www.paulagics.com paulagics.com
@gmail.com info@paulagics.com
*


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Tony Leukering wrote:

> So, how does one explain the call note that I've heard only from Hoary
> Redpoll, despite seeing >100x more Commons? And, of course, there are
> numerous good records of both Swainson's Hawk and Oregon Junco in the East:
>
>
> Swainson's on the East Coast from just one photographer at a place
> where one cannot walk at that latitude very far east and still keep
> your shoes
> dry:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Oregon:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
> http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Holbrook
> To: BIRDWG01
> Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2015 12:38 am
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
>
>
> Finally! I've been saying this for years! So obvious, but folks are so
> bent on getting more ticks on their list, that nobody would listen!
> BOOM! DONE! I have been putting folks that claim to see HOARYs on a
> special list for decades!
> Seriously! I have a list! Just a fun Aspy trait! Don't get me started
> about Oregon Juncos or Swainson's Hawks in eastern North America.
> LOL You don't want
> to go there! Too funny really. No HOREs just COREs! :)
>
>
> Jeff
> Holbrook
> Corning, NY
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
Date: Sun Apr 5 2015 9:57 am
From: mycteria AT stny.rr.com
 
There are certainly valid and accepted records of Swainson's Hawks and Oregon Juncos. I don't dispute that at all. They are at least valid species. Given enough time, each state's list will be similar . :) What I don't like is that every time someone sees a dark Red-tailed Hawk (a highly variable species to begin with!) or slightly different colored junco in the flocks at their feeders, they claim to have a special bird. Trust me, most sightings are wishful thinking. Also, just to point out, birds that have been claimed to be hoary types and common types have been noted from the same nest since at least the 1970's. The hoary thing should have gone away decades ago but no! And just to make a point, there have been how many accepted sightings of "hoary" Redpolls since the 1970's? Don't make the mistake that just because it's accepted that it is correct. Question everything. :)


Jeff Holbrook
Corning, NY

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Guris
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 20:10
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

FYI, there have been 42 accepted records of Swainson's Hawks in New Jersey since 1996, including several which were banded. They have been nearly annual since 2001.

There have been 13 accepted records of "Oregon" Junco.


-PAG


--







*Paul A. GurisSee Life PaulagicsPO Box 161Green Lane, PA 18054215-234-6805www.paulagics.com paulagics.com
@gmail.com info@paulagics.com
*


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Tony Leukering wrote:

> So, how does one explain the call note that I've heard only from Hoary
> Redpoll, despite seeing >100x more Commons? And, of course, there are
> numerous good records of both Swainson's Hawk and Oregon Junco in the East:
>
>
> Swainson's on the East Coast from just one photographer at a place
> where one cannot walk at that latitude very far east and still keep
> your shoes
> dry:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Oregon:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
> http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Holbrook
> To: BIRDWG01
> Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2015 12:38 am
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
>
>
> Finally! I've been saying this for years! So obvious, but folks are so
> bent on getting more ticks on their list, that nobody would listen!
> BOOM! DONE! I have been putting folks that claim to see HOARYs on a
> special list for decades!
> Seriously! I have a list! Just a fun Aspy trait! Don't get me started
> about Oregon Juncos or Swainson's Hawks in eastern North America.
> LOL You don't want
> to go there! Too funny really. No HOREs just COREs! :)
>
>
> Jeff
> Holbrook
> Corning, NY
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: potential Common Snipe in Newfoundland
Date: Sun Apr 5 2015 1:17 am
From: birds.jorgensen AT blixtmail.se
 
Hi all!

Sorry for the wrong name, I meant of course Bruce and nothing else!

JanJ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: potential Common Snipe in Newfoundland
Date: Sat Apr 4 2015 9:41 am
From: birds.jorgensen AT blixtmail.se
 
Hi Joseph!

In my eyes it looks good as a Common Snipe.

Some 800 pic of Common Snipe from Sweden here, if you like...

http://svalan.artdata.slu.se/birds/gallery.asp?artid25

JanJ
Sweden

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Sat Apr 4 2015 7:12 am
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
I wonder how much the drought will impact migration movements? It may throw
the usual stats off course, no pun intended.
Suzanne Sullivan

On Friday, April 3, 2015, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:

> Jeff
>
> I did my grad work near Punta Rasa in Buenos Aires, Argentina. One of the
> estancias I used to survey (for Screaming Cowbirds and Baywings, my study
> species) was the last spot an Eskimo Curlew was found in Argentina. I
> always
> had a dream that I would find them there and quietly switch my grad work to
> study the species. I do think that they may be around, but think that if
> that is the case there are but a few hundred left. I do think it would be
> difficult to find them if they are concentrated in a tiny area, or a single
> field somewhere. They are unlikely to be found in much of the migration as
> they surely had long non-stop flights. Imagine trying to find a Hudsonian
> Godwit if there were only 100 left, you would be hard pressed to do so
> given
> their long non-stop flights.
> On a similar topic, Upland Sandpiper vagrants have turned up in Chile
> in
> a very small window of time, and they have been in the north of the
> country.
> The window is mid March into April. The thought was that a few got lost on
> the northbound migration and crossed the Andes by mistake. Yet the window
> and concentration (mainly in Antofagasta Region) suggested there was a
> small
> and regular movement of them there. This year while surveying for breeding
> storm petrels in the desert friends of mine heard many flying over at
> night.
> They were able to see some, and once the methodology was figured out one of
> the guys stayed up waiting for them to go by over his yard in Arica (by the
> Peru border) and heard them nightly! So either this is a very weird year,
> or
> there is a consistent and sizeable nocturnal migration of Upland Sandpipers
> over the deserts of northern Chile. We shall see what occurs in 2016, but
> it
> was very exciting to learn this. If a species that is moderately well known
> as Upland Sandpiper can have an entirely unknown migration route, imagine
> 100 Eskimo Curlews.... they could be out there.
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Gilligan
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 6:54 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flying small curlew look-alikes?
>
> What is the status of Whimbrels in Nebraska? Few if any would be migrating
> along the Oregon coast at this date.
>
> I don't think anyone, including the observer, would consider this sighting
> as anything approaching proof that Eskimo Curlews still exist, but it gives
> me some hope. I would suggest that even if there was still population of
> a
> few hundred that they may have gone undetected all these years. Their
> (former) winter range in southern South America is extensive, and the
> species flew great distances non-stop in migration.
>
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland, Oregon
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Jamie Chavez
> wrote:
>
> > Noah,
> >
> > Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt Whimbrel
> > on rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds compared to
> > Whimbrels of standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I
> > can't for the life of me find one at the moment.
> >
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a field
> >> near Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a
> >> pigeon, then I realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it
> >> appeared to be a small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready to
> >> go so I only saw it at a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out
> >> the bill, body shape, etc. But its flight action had the distinctive
> >> smooth, gracefully lumbering look of a curlew.
> >>
> >> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that can
> >> give off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
> >>
> >> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be
> >> getting to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo,
> >> but there are obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo
> Curlew!
> >>
> >> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>


--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Eskimo habitat
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 22:17 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I hope this isn't too far off-topic... But does anyone know what would be
ideal foraging habitat for migrating Eskimo Curlews? I'm going to spend the
weekend searching historical "staging" areas near York, Nebraska, and would
like to narrow down the likely habitats.

Thanks!

Noah

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 22:08 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Jeff

I did my grad work near Punta Rasa in Buenos Aires, Argentina. One of the
estancias I used to survey (for Screaming Cowbirds and Baywings, my study
species) was the last spot an Eskimo Curlew was found in Argentina. I always
had a dream that I would find them there and quietly switch my grad work to
study the species. I do think that they may be around, but think that if
that is the case there are but a few hundred left. I do think it would be
difficult to find them if they are concentrated in a tiny area, or a single
field somewhere. They are unlikely to be found in much of the migration as
they surely had long non-stop flights. Imagine trying to find a Hudsonian
Godwit if there were only 100 left, you would be hard pressed to do so given
their long non-stop flights.
On a similar topic, Upland Sandpiper vagrants have turned up in Chile in
a very small window of time, and they have been in the north of the country.
The window is mid March into April. The thought was that a few got lost on
the northbound migration and crossed the Andes by mistake. Yet the window
and concentration (mainly in Antofagasta Region) suggested there was a small
and regular movement of them there. This year while surveying for breeding
storm petrels in the desert friends of mine heard many flying over at night.
They were able to see some, and once the methodology was figured out one of
the guys stayed up waiting for them to go by over his yard in Arica (by the
Peru border) and heard them nightly! So either this is a very weird year, or
there is a consistent and sizeable nocturnal migration of Upland Sandpipers
over the deserts of northern Chile. We shall see what occurs in 2016, but it
was very exciting to learn this. If a species that is moderately well known
as Upland Sandpiper can have an entirely unknown migration route, imagine
100 Eskimo Curlews.... they could be out there.

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Gilligan
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 6:54 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flying small curlew look-alikes?

What is the status of Whimbrels in Nebraska? Few if any would be migrating
along the Oregon coast at this date.

I don't think anyone, including the observer, would consider this sighting
as anything approaching proof that Eskimo Curlews still exist, but it gives
me some hope. I would suggest that even if there was still population of a
few hundred that they may have gone undetected all these years. Their
(former) winter range in southern South America is extensive, and the
species flew great distances non-stop in migration.

Jeff Gilligan
Portland, Oregon


On Apr 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Jamie Chavez wrote:

> Noah,
>
> Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt Whimbrel
> on rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds compared to
> Whimbrels of standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I
> can't for the life of me find one at the moment.
>
> Jamie Chavez
> Santa Maria, CA
>
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a field
>> near Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a
>> pigeon, then I realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it
>> appeared to be a small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready to
>> go so I only saw it at a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out
>> the bill, body shape, etc. But its flight action had the distinctive
>> smooth, gracefully lumbering look of a curlew.
>>
>> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that can
>> give off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
>>
>> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be
>> getting to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo,
>> but there are obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo
Curlew!
>>
>> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jamie Chavez
> Santa Maria, CA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 21:56 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Noah

Seriously, Eskimo Curlew more likely than Whimbrel? At this point Eskimo Curlew is less likely than Whimbrel, anytime and anywhere on earth. And I will add that I do believe the curlew still exists, but I am an optimist.

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:36 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Flying small curlew look-alikes?

Thanks everyone... I'm leaning towards Upland Sandpiper or Hudsonian Godwit at the moment, or maybe even a duck or heavy-bodied domestic pigeon breed. I couldn't get a good feel for the size (the bird was flying high over agricultural land; very hard to judge distance). It didn't necessarily look any smaller than a normal Whimbrel, but it did look smaller than a Long-billed Curlew. In CA I would have had no problem with it being a Whimbrel, although I would have left it unidentified even there.
However, Whimbrels are rare in NE and there are no records before late April, so that species is probably out of the question.

I think Eskimo is more likely than Whimbrel at this place and date (even given the species' supposed extinction -- I agree with Jeff here). But I don't think Eskimo is as likely as Upland or Hudsonian.

I would probably have a diagnostic photo of whatever it was if I hadn't left my camera in the car.

Noah

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Gilligan
wrote:

> What is the status of Whimbrels in Nebraska? Few if any would be
> migrating along the Oregon coast at this date.
>
> I don't think anyone, including the observer, would consider this
> sighting as anything approaching proof that Eskimo Curlews still
> exist, but it gives me some hope. I would suggest that even if there
> was still population of a few hundred that they may have gone
> undetected all these years. Their
> (former) winter range in southern South America is extensive, and the
> species flew great distances non-stop in migration.
>
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland, Oregon
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Jamie Chavez wrote:
>
> > Noah,
> >
> > Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt
> > Whimbrel on rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds
> > compared to Whimbrels
> of
> > standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I can't for the
> > life
> of
> > me find one at the moment.
> >
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a
> >> field
> near
> >> Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a pigeon,
> >> then I realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it
> >> appeared to be a small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready
> >> to go so I only saw it
> at
> >> a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out the bill, body shape, etc.
> But
> >> its flight action had the distinctive smooth, gracefully lumbering
> >> look
> of
> >> a curlew.
> >>
> >> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that
> >> can
> give
> >> off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
> >>
> >> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be
> getting
> >> to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo, but
> >> there
> are
> >> obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo Curlew!
> >>
> >> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 21:46 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Thanks everyone... I'm leaning towards Upland Sandpiper or Hudsonian Godwit
at the moment, or maybe even a duck or heavy-bodied domestic pigeon
breed. I couldn't get a good feel for the size (the bird was flying high
over agricultural land; very hard to judge distance). It didn't necessarily
look any smaller than a normal Whimbrel, but it did look smaller than a
Long-billed Curlew. In CA I would have had no problem with it being a
Whimbrel, although I would have left it unidentified even there.
However, Whimbrels are rare in NE and there are no records before late
April, so that species is probably out of the question.

I think Eskimo is more likely than Whimbrel at this place and date (even
given the species' supposed extinction -- I agree with Jeff here). But I
don't think Eskimo is as likely as Upland or Hudsonian.

I would probably have a diagnostic photo of whatever it was if I hadn't
left my camera in the car.

Noah

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Jeff Gilligan
wrote:

> What is the status of Whimbrels in Nebraska? Few if any would be
> migrating along the Oregon coast at this date.
>
> I don't think anyone, including the observer, would consider this sighting
> as anything approaching proof that Eskimo Curlews still exist, but it gives
> me some hope. I would suggest that even if there was still population of
> a few hundred that they may have gone undetected all these years. Their
> (former) winter range in southern South America is extensive, and the
> species flew great distances non-stop in migration.
>
> Jeff Gilligan
> Portland, Oregon
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Jamie Chavez wrote:
>
> > Noah,
> >
> > Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt Whimbrel on
> > rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds compared to Whimbrels
> of
> > standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I can't for the life
> of
> > me find one at the moment.
> >
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a field
> near
> >> Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a pigeon, then I
> >> realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it appeared to be a
> >> small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready to go so I only saw it
> at
> >> a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out the bill, body shape, etc.
> But
> >> its flight action had the distinctive smooth, gracefully lumbering look
> of
> >> a curlew.
> >>
> >> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that can
> give
> >> off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
> >>
> >> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be
> getting
> >> to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo, but there
> are
> >> obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo Curlew!
> >>
> >> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jamie Chavez
> > Santa Maria, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 21:13 pm
From: jeffgilligan10 AT gmail.com
 
What is the status of Whimbrels in Nebraska?  Few if any would be migrating along the Oregon coast at this date.

I don't think anyone, including the observer, would consider this sighting as anything approaching proof that Eskimo Curlews still exist, but it gives me some hope. I would suggest that even if there was still population of a few hundred that they may have gone undetected all these years. Their (former) winter range in southern South America is extensive, and the species flew great distances non-stop in migration.

Jeff Gilligan
Portland, Oregon


On Apr 3, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Jamie Chavez wrote:

> Noah,
>
> Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt Whimbrel on
> rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds compared to Whimbrels of
> standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I can't for the life of
> me find one at the moment.
>
> Jamie Chavez
> Santa Maria, CA
>
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a field near
>> Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a pigeon, then I
>> realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it appeared to be a
>> small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready to go so I only saw it at
>> a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out the bill, body shape, etc. But
>> its flight action had the distinctive smooth, gracefully lumbering look of
>> a curlew.
>>
>> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that can give
>> off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
>>
>> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be getting
>> to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo, but there are
>> obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo Curlew!
>>
>> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jamie Chavez
> Santa Maria, CA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Flying small curlew look-alikes?
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 20:22 pm
From: almiyi AT gmail.com
 
Noah,

Along the California coast it is not unheard of to see a runt Whimbrel on
rare occasions. These are noticeably smaller birds compared to Whimbrels of
standard body mass. I've seen a photo somewhere but I can't for the life of
me find one at the moment.

Jamie Chavez
Santa Maria, CA

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Noah Arthur wrote:

> Hi everyone. Yesterday I had an interesting distant fly-by at a field near
> Lincoln, NE. When I first saw the bird I thought it was a pigeon, then I
> realized it looked too duckish to be a pigeon, and it appeared to be a
> small curlew. I didn't have the binoculars ready to go so I only saw it at
> a distance in silhouette; couldn't make out the bill, body shape, etc. But
> its flight action had the distinctive smooth, gracefully lumbering look of
> a curlew.
>
> Are there any other shorebirds (or other birds of any kind) that can give
> off a curlew-like gizz in flight?
>
> BTW Any small curlew would be a great rarity. Whimbrel shouldn't be getting
> to Nebraska until late April. We're right on time for Eskimo, but there are
> obvious problems with IDing a distant fly-by as an Eskimo Curlew!
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
Jamie Chavez
Santa Maria, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 19:28 pm
From: paulagics.com AT gmail.com
 
FYI, there have been 42 accepted records of Swainson's Hawks in New Jersey
since 1996, including several which were banded. They have been nearly
annual since 2001.

There have been 13 accepted records of "Oregon" Junco.


-PAG


--







*Paul A. GurisSee Life PaulagicsPO Box 161Green Lane, PA
18054215-234-6805www.paulagics.com paulagics.com
@gmail.com info@paulagics.com
*


On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Tony Leukering wrote:

> So, how does one explain the call note that I've heard only from Hoary
> Redpoll, despite seeing >100x more Commons? And, of course, there are
> numerous good records of both Swainson's Hawk and Oregon Junco in the East:
>
>
> Swainson's on the East Coast from just one photographer at a place where
> one cannot walk at that latitude very far east and still keep your shoes
> dry:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Oregon:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
> http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Holbrook
> To: BIRDWG01
> Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2015 12:38 am
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
>
>
> Finally! I've been saying this for years! So obvious, but folks are so bent
> on
> getting more ticks on their list, that nobody would listen! BOOM! DONE! I
> have
> been putting folks that claim to see HOARYs on a special list for
> decades!
> Seriously! I have a list! Just a fun Aspy trait! Don't get me
> started about
> Oregon Juncos or Swainson's Hawks in eastern North America.
> LOL You don't want
> to go there! Too funny really. No HOREs just COREs! :)
>
>
> Jeff
> Holbrook
> Corning, NY
>
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
Date: Fri Apr 3 2015 17:20 pm
From: kjm2 AT cornell.edu
 
Call note? How about a local dialect learned from its parents?  I believe in eastern records of Oregon Junco and Swainson's Hawk (I've seen one but not the other), but mildly different vocal differences among passerines have never been very convincing to me.

Best,

Kevin


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Leukering
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 3:46 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

So, how does one explain the call note that I've heard only from Hoary Redpoll, despite seeing >100x more Commons? And, of course, there are numerous good records of both Swainson's Hawk and Oregon Junco in the East:


Swainson's on the East Coast from just one photographer at a place where one cannot walk at that latitude very far east and still keep your shoes dry:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


Oregon:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...


Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://cowyebird.blogspot.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/



-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Holbrook
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Fri, Apr 3, 2015 12:38 am
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls


Finally! I've been saying this for years! So obvious, but folks are so bent on getting more ticks on their list, that nobody would listen! BOOM! DONE! I have been putting folks that claim to see HOARYs on a special list for decades!
Seriously! I have a list! Just a fun Aspy trait! Don't get me started about Oregon Juncos or Swainson's Hawks in eastern North America.
LOL You don't want
to go there! Too funny really. No HOREs just COREs! :)


Jeff
Holbrook
Corning, NY

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS
Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 16:32
To:
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

Dick

I think you may well be right on many accounts, yet I wanted to put in a plug and defense for the AOU model of doing taxonomy :-)


Regards,
Alvaro

Alvaro
Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original
Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Newell
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 1:07 PM
To:
BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls

Hi Alvaro,
I meant no implied criticism in saying that taxonomic decisions are political, based upon scientific measurement I was just stating a fact (well, my opinion is that is what happens). So much science these days is driven by politics.

If one applied the same taxonomic principles to human taxonomy as one did to large gulls or redpolls, then one would end up with quite a few species of humans. The politics dictates that this is not acceptable, no matter what the science says. It would not even be acceptable to research or debate human taxonomy in this way.

Anyway I am with Ron, I will
continue to enjoy variation in gulls and redpolls (and humans!), regardless of whether they are species or not.
Dick
Cambridge

On 1 April 2015 at 20:37,
Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:

> Dick et al
>
> I am
biased, being a member of a taxonomic committee myself.
> However, I think the
model used by the AOU both for North America and
> South America of having a
panel that votes and discusses taxonomic
> decisions (in a public
> manner)
is a good way to minimize the effect of politics in taxonomic
> decisions. In
the AOU committees there is active discussion about the
> biology and data,
and how to interpret those, but it would be
> seriously frowned upon if anyone
used the rationale of changing
> taxonomy for conservation or national pride.
The idea here is that the
> decisions should be as unbiased and data driven so
that the
> politicians, conservationists and listers have something solid to
work
> with. A list that can be defended as objective (within the bounds of

> reason that humans and not machines are making the list!).
> The
criticism of the AOU committees is often that they are slow,
> conservative,
don't make changes quickly. Yet I have not heard any
> critique of the
committees being influenced by politics in making
> decisions. That is not to
say it does not happen in other lists. It is
> also a good reason why an
independent scientific body should be
> creating the lists, and perhaps not a
political, lobbying,
> conservation, non-profit or other organization which
may be
> professional, experienced but perhaps more easily swayed by the
>
underlying politics that will be affected by taxonomic changes. In
> fact the
AOU committee for South America is independent of the North
> American
committee, and they can come up with differing opinions in
>
their
taxonomy.
> To some this may be a fault, I think it is a strength. The

> independence of the committee, as well as transparency in their
> decision
making are important.
>
> Regards
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
>
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Newell
> Sent: Tuesday,
March 31, 2015 10:47 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re:
[BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
>
> In many cases, taxonomic
splitting or lumping is a political decision,
> based upon scientifically
determined differences or incompatabilities
> between 2 or more putative
forms.
>
> Differences may embrace morphology, behaviour, calls, or DNA to
name a
few.
> And now epigenetics?
>
> Incompatibility includes infertile or
less fit hybrid offspring and
> asymetric responses to calls.
>
> The
politics may be influenced by keeping the listers happy, national
> pride,
deciding where conservation money should be spent or the whim
> of the
taxonomist. Once politics is involved, then why expect logical
>
consistency.
> Dick Newell
> Cambridge, UK
>
> On 31 March 2015 at 23:41,
JOS GRZYBOWSKI
> wrote:
>
> > Species concept is
an issue, but part of this relates to
> > thefundamental purpose of having a
taxonomic system which partitions
> > organisms intodistinct taxa, when
taxonomy is really the science and
> > art of drawing linesthrough clines, the
clines not necessarily being
> linear, and the
> > taxonomicunits not
necessarily being discrete. The fundamental
> > system is a construct
(or constructs). And the two contrasting
> > issues of discussion hereare in
how intricately genotype and
> > epigenetics can moderate phenotype (possibly
isolating a process
> > that takes some time to mature), and howwe count this
stuff on our
> > lists; or on how we should keep lists--by the
acceptedstructures of
> > taxonomic rules, or by morph or phenotype. Or
whether we just
> > shouldn't enjoy and studythe variation in nature, and the

> > distribution of these units (at whatever levelwe choose to
> >
distinguish them, or be able to distinguish them accurately
> >
orreasonably).I have always liked Hoary Redpolls, the few I
> have seen;whether
a species or morph.
> > Enjoy seeing pictures of them and will always give them
the
> > distinction of being a "cool"taxon.As I have liked Timberline
> >
Sparrow--also on my list of "cool" taxa.
> >
> > CHEERS,
JOE Grzybowski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 4:53 PM,
"whoffman@PEAK.ORG" <
> > whoffman@PEAK.ORG> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi -
>
>
> > This is a very interesting finding, but I would not immediately call
>
> them conspecific.
> >
> > What it does is highlight a problem with current
applications of the
> > Biological Species Concept.
> >
> > The essence of
the BSC is the idea that biological populations that
> > tend to recognize
each other as different for purposes of mate
> > selection are treated as
separate species, and populations that tend
> > not to "care" about the
phenotypic differences we recognize should
> > be
> treated as
conspecific.
> >
> > The problem I am highlighting is that organisms can
potentially
> > develop methods of discrimination (reproductive isolating
> >
mechanisms) without, or at least before, evolving the kinds of
> > genetic
signals we have come to associate with species status.
> >
> > A lot of
genetic work on bird species limits has addressed
> > allopatric populations -
North American vs Eurasian magpies,
> > three-toed woodpeckers, wrens, etc.
These tend to presume a
> > speciation model whereby allopatric populations
very gradually
> > accumulate genetic differences that eventually become
sufficient to
> > produce genomes differentiated to an extent we associate
with
> > species
level.
> >
> > Because I have been working with fish in
the past 18 years, it has
> > become very evident to me that speciation can
also occur rapidly
> > through selection for isolating mechanisms without much
change of
> > the rest of the genome. I think that different taxonomic groups
are
> > more or less susceptible to rapid changes in phenotype that can
> >
serve as isolating mechanisms. Multiple groups of fish have the
> > ability
(sticklebacks, cichlids, darters, dace,
> > salmonids) to evolve reproductive
isolation and visible reproductive
> > isolating mechanisms very rapidly (10s
of generations or even less),
> > while other groups (pike, herring) appear
relatively conservative.
> >
> > My first reaction to this news about redpolls
is that epigenetics - i.e.
> > differential expression of the "same" genes -
might also be a route
> > to rapid acquisition of reproductive isolating
mechanisms. If this
> > is the case, we should expect their genomes to
diverge, but perhaps
> > only at the rates seen in fully allopatric
populations accumulating
> > supposedly selectively neutral mutations... where
"sister species"
> > are thought to be separated for 1 million years or more.
It makes
> > more sense to me to recognize reproductively isolated
> >
populations/groups as species even when the genomes lack evidence of
> >
a
long period of separate evolution.
> >
> > Among birds, the group that
seems to me most likely to have ta
> > genetic makeup conducive to rapid
speciation is the Fringillidae,
> > which of course includes redpolls. Within
this family are also the
> > crossbills, which have evolved reproductive
isolation, apparently
> > very rapidly, and apparently in sympatry, into
"types" that differ
> > modestly in calls, size, and bill morphology. The
family also
> > includes the Hawaiian Honeycreepers and Rosy-finches, which
appear
> > to differentiated pretty rapidly. It also includes Evening
Grosbeaks
> > and Pine Grosbeaks both of which have geographic variation that
is
> > manifested both in morphology and voice. With the redpolls, the
> >
truly important question from the perspective of BSC is whether or
> > to what
extent Hoary and Common Redpolls interbreed, and what the
> > outcomes are,
>
if
> they do.
> >
> > Other bird groups that seem to have a genetic makeup
conducive to
> > rapid differentiation and acquisition of reproductive
isolation
> > include northern geese, grouse, juncos, and perhaps wood
warblers.
> >
> > Necessarily, taxonomists have been trying to delimit species
without
> > understanding the precise genetic mechanisms that account for the

> > differences among them. As those mechanisms become apparent, we can
> >
expect some surprises where the mechanisms do not agree with our
> >
assumptions of how evolution occurs.
> >
> > Wayne Hoffman
> >
> >
> >
From: "Kevin J. McGowan"
> > To: "BIRDWG01"

> > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 10:39:48 AM
> >
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Goodbye to Hoary (and Lesser) Redpolls
> >
> > A new paper
published this week by a couple of post-docs at Cornell
> > shows no genetic
difference among redpolls, despite total genome
> > sampling. It's an oddly
titled paper for the content this group
> > would be interested in, so I
thought I'd bring it to the group's
attention.
> >
> > Nicholas A. Mason and
Scott. A. Taylor. Differentially expressed
> > genes match bill morphology and
plumage despite largely
> > undifferentiated genomes in a Holarctic
songbird<
> >
>
>
http://cornell.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u5ddb671faf4a16c0ce3
>
2406&i
> dec545b1e&eb0e50835>.
> > Molecular Ecology.
> >
> > Although
nowhere in the paper does it actually mention species
> > status, the upshot
is that there is one circumpolar "genome," which
> > means one species (they
sampled Lesser Redpolls in Europe, too).
> > Differences in physical appearance
are the result of the expression
> > of different genes from the entire suit
that all the redpolls possess.
> >
> > As the Lab blog<
> >
http://cornell.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u5ddb671faf4a16c0c
> > e3
2406&idiccdd311c&eb0e50835> post discussing the study puts
> > it, "The
new research suggests all the Common-Hoary confusion over
> > the years may
have been justified."
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Kevin J. McGowan, Ph.D.
> >
Project Manager
> > Distance Learning in Bird Biology
> > Cornell Lab of
Ornithology
> > 159 Sapsucker Woods Road
> > Ithaca, NY 14850
> >
kjm2@cornell.edu
> > 607-254-2452
> >
> >
> >
> >
Do you know about our other distance-learning opportunities? Visit
> >
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/c...
> >
http://cornell.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u5ddb671faf4a16c0c
> > e3
2406&id023cad4e&ec0712a98> and learn about our
> > comprehensive Home
Study Course in Bird Biology, our online course
> > Investigating
> >
Behavior: Courtship and Rivalry in Birds<
> >
http://cornell.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u5ddb671faf4a16c0
> > ce
>
> 32406&id9183921c&ec0712a98>,
> > our Be A Better Birder tutorials<
> >
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> > ce
>
> 32406&id69512772&ec0712a98>,
> > and our series of webinars<
> >
>
>
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>
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> d6e880490&ec0712a98>.
> > Purchase the webinars here<
> >
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> > e3
>
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> > >.
> >
> >
> >
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