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Updated on March 4, 2015, 3:55 pm

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04 Mar: @ 15:53:08 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Allen Chartier]
04 Mar: @ 15:07:38 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Mark Szantyr]
04 Mar: @ 02:11:04 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [David Irons]
03 Mar: @ 22:17:37 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Alvaro Jaramillo]
03 Mar: @ 21:40:00 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Peter Pyle]
03 Mar: @ 18:41:45 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [karlson3]
03 Mar: @ 18:38:14 Re: Blackbird link [karlson3]
03 Mar: @ 18:37:49 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Rob Parsons]
03 Mar: @ 17:55:52 Re: Blackbird link [Christopher Hill]
03 Mar: @ 16:15:16 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [karlson3]
03 Mar: @ 14:07:57  Slaty-backed candidate from Nebraska [Noah Arthur]
02 Mar: @ 18:45:40 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [Rex Rowan]
02 Mar: @ 17:18:21 Re: Fw: Blackbird link [David Irons]
02 Mar: @ 16:15:18  Fw: Blackbird link [Rob Parsons]
26 Feb: @ 07:18:42 Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Chris Hill]
25 Feb: @ 21:19:45 Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Paul Guris]
25 Feb: @ 17:52:14 Re: Thick-billed Murre photos? [Bruce Mactavish]
25 Feb: @ 16:50:04  Thick-billed Murre photos? [Chris Hill]
20 Feb: @ 02:12:37 Re: Individual bird ID help needed [Mike O'Keeffe]
20 Feb: @ 01:40:23 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell]
19 Feb: @ 20:53:25  Black Tern - underwing color and winter head patterns [Mark B Bartosik]
19 Feb: @ 20:28:25  Individual bird ID help needed [Noah Arthur]
19 Feb: @ 08:41:22 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell]
18 Feb: @ 18:06:40 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson]
18 Feb: @ 16:48:22 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Mike O'Keeffe]
18 Feb: @ 13:12:47 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Mark B Bartosik]
18 Feb: @ 09:10:23 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson]
18 Feb: @ 09:09:07 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Jason Hoeksema]
17 Feb: @ 17:45:58 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho]
17 Feb: @ 14:47:00 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Tony Leukering]
17 Feb: @ 14:07:07 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Mark B Bartosik]
17 Feb: @ 03:22:48 Re: Chlidonias tern query [Hans Larsson]
17 Feb: @ 01:10:50  Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office. [Paul Wood]
16 Feb: @ 21:41:43  Chlidonias tern query [Jason Hoeksema]
16 Feb: @ 20:17:09 Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Matthew A. Young]
16 Feb: @ 18:21:21 Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Jean Iron]
16 Feb: @ 16:53:51 Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Tony Leukering]
16 Feb: @ 16:23:19 Re: Hoary Redpoll question [Lee G R Evans]
12 Feb: @ 14:05:13 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Dominic Mitchell]
12 Feb: @ 12:41:31 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho]
11 Feb: @ 23:29:10 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Steve Hampton]
11 Feb: @ 22:56:09 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Reid Martin]
11 Feb: @ 22:03:32 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Suzanne Sullivan]
11 Feb: @ 20:17:35  Fwd: [nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park Reservoir [Peter Post]
11 Feb: @ 19:50:05  Any opinions on this gull [Peter Post]
11 Feb: @ 17:50:40 Re: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Alvaro Jaramillo]
11 Feb: @ 16:24:58  1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G? [Luis Gordinho]
09 Feb: @ 23:17:42 Re: Subspecies by state? [David Irons]
09 Feb: @ 22:36:42 Re: Subspecies by state? [Reid Martin]
09 Feb: @ 19:39:29 Re: Subspecies by state? [Tangren, Gerald Vernon]



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Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Wed Mar 4 2015 15:53 pm
From: amazilia3 AT gmail.com
 
Mark,

Interesting to see these photos. There was a very black Rusty Blackbird at
a feeder in Macomb County, Michigan that I went to see on January 9, and
its appearance most closely matched photo 3, and 26-32 in your series. In
other words, very little rusty edging present on that early date.
Unfortunately, failing light meant my photos are pretty poor. Any Rusty
Blackbird is very rare in winter this far north, and Brewer's is even less
likely.

Allen T. Chartier
Inkster, Michigan
Email: amazilia3@gmail.com
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/m...
Website: www.amazilia.net
Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogsp...

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Mark Szantyr wrote:

> http://birddog55.zenfolio.com/...
>
> This is just an FYI but after having shared these recent images with Dave
> Irons, he suggested that I might share these with the rest of the folks
> involved in this very interesting discussion. There Rusty Blackbird
> images were taken on 6 February 2015 in Connecticut.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Szantyr
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 2:40 AM, David Irons wrote:
>
> > As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited
> > prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that
> says
> > they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to
> > be evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the
> > side of head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird
> > molting last March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on
> successive
> > weekends that clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's
> > head pattern changed considerably in just a week's time.
> >
> > Dave Irons
> > Portland, OR
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> > > From: ppyle@BIRDPOP.ORG
> > > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> > > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > >
> > > So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
> > > occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
> > > fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
> > > rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
> > > in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
> > > don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
> > > look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
> > > are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
> > > either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
> > >
> > > Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
> > > head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
> > > to some of the change, but not all of it.
> > >
> > > Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
> > > fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
> > > they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
> > > again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
> > >
> > > All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
> > > Western Birds.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> > > >Kevin,
> > > >
> > > >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
> > > >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
> > > >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
> > > >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> > > >
> > > >If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally
> > > >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
> > > >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
> > > >birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have photos of one of
> > > >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
> > > >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> > > >
> > > >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
> > > >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
> > > >Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
> > > >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
> > > >input. Thank you to everyone who responded.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Cheers,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Rob Parsons
> > > >Winnipeg, MB
> > > >CANADA
> > > >parsons8@mts.net
> > > >
> > > >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mark S. Szantyr
> 56 Maple Road
> Storrs Mansfield, CT 06268
>
> 860-429-2641
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Wed Mar 4 2015 15:07 pm
From: birddog55 AT charter.net
 
http://birddog55.zenfolio.com/...

This is just an FYI but after having shared these recent images with Dave
Irons, he suggested that I might share these with the rest of the folks
involved in this very interesting discussion. There Rusty Blackbird
images were taken on 6 February 2015 in Connecticut.

Mark

Mark Szantyr

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 2:40 AM, David Irons wrote:

> As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited
> prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that says
> they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to
> be evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the
> side of head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird
> molting last March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on successive
> weekends that clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's
> head pattern changed considerably in just a week's time.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> > From: ppyle@BIRDPOP.ORG
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
> > occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
> > fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
> > rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
> > in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
> > don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
> > look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
> > are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
> > either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
> >
> > Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
> > head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
> > to some of the change, but not all of it.
> >
> > Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
> > fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
> > they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
> > again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
> >
> > All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
> > Western Birds.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> > >Kevin,
> > >
> > >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
> > >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
> > >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
> > >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> > >
> > >If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally
> > >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
> > >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
> > >birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have photos of one of
> > >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
> > >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> > >
> > >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
> > >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
> > >Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
> > >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
> > >input. Thank you to everyone who responded.
> > >
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > >Rob Parsons
> > >Winnipeg, MB
> > >CANADA
> > >parsons8@mts.net
> > >
> > >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Mark S. Szantyr
56 Maple Road
Storrs Mansfield, CT 06268

860-429-2641

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Wed Mar 4 2015 2:11 am
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
As Peter Pyle indicates, Brewer's and Rusty Blackbirds have a limited prealternate molt, which is contrary to quite a bit of literature that says they have no prealternate molt. In some of Rob's photos, there appears to be evidence of this, with unopened white feather sheaths evident on the side of head and neck. We watched a first-winter male Rusty Blackbird molting last March here in Oregon. I took photos of the bird on successive weekends that clearly showed similar white feather sheaths. That bird's head pattern changed considerably in just a week's time.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 19:03:20 -0800
> From: ppyle@BIRDPOP.ORG
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
> occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
> fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
> rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
> in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
> don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
> look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
> are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
> either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.
>
> Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
> head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
> to some of the change, but not all of it.
>
> Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
> fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
> they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
> again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.
>
> All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
> Western Birds.
>
> Peter
>
> At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
> >Kevin,
> >
> >With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
> >"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
> >plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
> >helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
> >
> >If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally
> >all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
> >photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
> >birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have photos of one of
> >them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
> >anomalies in molt--is risky.
> >
> >As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
> >birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
> >Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
> >Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
> >input. Thank you to everyone who responded.
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >
> >Rob Parsons
> >Winnipeg, MB
> >CANADA
> >parsons8@mts.net
> >
> >Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 22:17 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Rob et al.

I know what you mean. The plumage issue is an interesting one in this blackbird, and others...and starlings for that matter. The "breeding" plumage is acquired by the wear of feather tips in Euphagus, so it is dependent on the width of feather edging, as well as the environment that the feathers find themselves in. Both of those are variable. So indeed some Rusty Blackbirds can look black way too early, and some young male Brewer's can be way too rusty tipped, enough to make you look twice. It is a bit more subtle and variable than a change of appearance due to molt. I do wonder if the feather tips on Euphagus are also particularly easily worn, sort of like the sub terminal parts of tail feathers on motmots, so that by the time the breeding season arrives essentially all of the birds are black and shiny?
Finally, people ignore blackbirds. How many folks actually take the time to figure out how to identify Tricolored vs. Red-winged Blackbirds in California? Most do not, they just look for the obvious ones in the flock and there you go. I am guilty of this much of the time myself, but realize it is not the most informative way to be identifying these guys. There is a Birding article from way back when on the subject, not sure it made any impact :-)

Regards,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Rob Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:08 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Kevin,

With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: "all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage."
This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not helpful with certain problematic individual birds.

If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have photos of one of them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to anomalies in molt--is risky.

As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more input. Thank you to everyone who responded.


Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 21:40 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
So, the rust fringe to the feathers in Rusty and Brewer's Blackbirds
occurs on fresh basic and formative feathers in fall, and the
fringing largely wears (or breaks) off during winter in spring. The
rate at which the fringing wears off varies individually, resulting
in birds becoming "all black" at various times over the winter. I
don't know specifics but would guess that, by early March, about half
look pretty black. Most to all November-December birds, by contrast,
are moderately to heavily fringed rust. The point is that it's not an
either/or but a gradually changing situation within the population.

Rusty Blackbirds also have a prealternate molt, in which some of the
head feathers get replaced in March-April, and this also contributes
to some of the change, but not all of it.

Brewer's differs in that the first-year males have a lot more
fringing than adults. As recently confirmed in photos by Dave Irons,
they also have a limited prealternate molt of head feathers but,
again, most of the change toward black plumage occurs due to wear.

All of this will be in an upcoming paper by Lukas Musher et al. in
Western Birds.

Peter

At 04:07 PM 3/3/2015, Rob Parsons wrote:
>Kevin,
>
>With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with:
>"all [Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their
>plumage." This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not
>helpful with certain problematic individual birds.
>
>If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally
>all-black males in winter (December) and two of them were
>photographed and then identified (by structure) by knowledgeable
>birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I think I still have photos of one of
>them if you'd care to see it. Relying on plumage alone--subject to
>anomalies in molt--is risky.
>
>As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
>birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
>Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob
>Luterbach, who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more
>input. Thank you to everyone who responded.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Rob Parsons
>Winnipeg, MB
>CANADA
>parsons8@mts.net
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 18:41 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
All: here is a link to a photo of a male Rusty Blackbird taken in NJ in January, and a female taken in November. While I am sure variation occurs in males, with some mostly or all black, the pale eyebrow and rust tones to the plumage are more common by far than all black males. I can see males being all black by March, as Rex points out, but not typically in mid-winter. http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+male+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Jan.jpg.html ; http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Nov.jpg.html

Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rex Rowan"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 6:45:57 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

I agree with Dave that this is a Brewer's, but would disagree with a
secondary point: in a flock of about 35 Rusty Blackbirds seen yesterday in
Gainesville, Florida, most of the males showed no discernible pale feather
edges.

Rex Rowan
Gainesville, Florida

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:28 PM, David Irons wrote:

> Rob,
>
> On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without
> hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a
> Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's.
> The absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this
> season, points away from Rusty
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons" wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty
> & Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
> Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
> more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
> winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:
> >
> > http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
> Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > Rob Parsons
> > Winnipeg, MB
> > CANADA
> > parsons8@mts.net
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Subject: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 18:38 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Chris and all: 
I should have qualified that most Rustys seen in winter (and this bird has been in this location all winter, not just March1) show some rust to the plumage, and males that show a mostly black plumage in winter usually have some rust tips to their feathers (often the mantle) until late winter. But the glossy purple head and greenish back contrast is something that male Rustys don't show. They are mostly blackish overall. By March, male Rusty Blackbird can show a full black plumage, and a very close look at winter males may reveal some fine rust tips to the mantle (or not, I guess, according to Chris and maybe some other members). I just know that when I looked through fairly large flocks of Rusty Blackbirds in late fall and winter over the years, most show some rust to the plumage. The all black male in winter without rust in the plumage is in the small minority, in my opinion. Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Christopher Hill"
To: karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET, BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 6:25:35 PM
Subject: RE: Blackbird link

I'm going to chime in with a dissenting view, not of the ID - I also lean Brewer's - but of the idea that Rusties in Winter always show rusty coloration. I admit I do not see them that often, but even on a Christmas Bird Count season, so in December to January, I have seen Rusties that were completely black. I'm thinking of a particular bird in wet woods, very much in Rusty Blackbird habitat, in mid-December a few years ago. I have no photos to argue over, sorry. If others want to chime in I'm all ears. But I don't think "all glossy black on the first of March" is in any way definitive for Brewer's over Rusty.

Chris Hill
Conway, SC



________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET [karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Rob,
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and greenish back. Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Parsons"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty &
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

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Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 18:37 pm
From: parsons8 AT mymts.net
 
Kevin,

With all due respect, I have to firmly and utterly disagree with: "all
[Rusty Blackbirds]...in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage."
This statement is, to put it as tactfully as I can, not helpful with certain
problematic individual birds.

If only it were that simple. I have seen at least three totally all-black
males in winter (December) and two of them were photographed and then
identified (by structure) by knowledgeable birders as Rusty Blackbirds. I
think I still have photos of one of them if you'd care to see it. Relying on
plumage alone--subject to anomalies in molt--is risky.

As an aside, this particular bird was not one of those "problematic"
birds--everyone (including me) who saw the photos identified it as a
Brewer's. I only posted it to this list at the request of Bob Luterbach,
who also thought it was a Brewer's but sought more input. Thank you to
everyone who responded.


Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 17:55 pm
From: Chill AT coastal.edu
 
I'm going to chime in with a dissenting view, not of the ID - I also lean Brewer's - but of the idea that Rusties in Winter always show rusty coloration.  I admit I do not see them that often, but even on a Christmas Bird Count season, so in December to January, I have seen Rusties that were completely black.  I'm thinking of a particular bird in wet woods, very much in Rusty Blackbird habitat, in mid-December a few years ago.  I have no photos to argue over, sorry.  If others want to chime in I'm all ears. But I don't think "all glossy black on the first of March" is in any way definitive for Brewer's over Rusty.

Chris Hill
Conway, SC



________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET [karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 4:38 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Rob,
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and greenish back. Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Parsons"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty &
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

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Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 16:15 pm
From: karlson3 AT comcast.net
 
Rob,
it is a male Brewer's Blackbird. Even with the odd posture where you can't evaluate the structural features of the bird, Rusty's of both sexes always show a moderate to a lot of rust (females) coloration throughout their entire plumage. We used to see tons of Rusty Blackbirds in winter in NJ, but now they are somewhat scarce, and all that I have seen over 30+ years in winter show obvious rust color to their plumage. Given the time of year (winter), and the complete lack of any rust color in the feathers, it is safe to say this is a Brewer's. Male Rusty also lacks the strong contrasting purplish head and greenish back. Kevin Karlson

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Parsons"
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 4:25:18 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Fw: Blackbird link

Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty &
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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Subject: Slaty-backed candidate from Nebraska
Date: Tue Mar 3 2015 14:07 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Here's a(nother) Nebraska 1st-cycle Slaty-backed candidate. This guy was at
Lake McConaughy on Sunday afternoon, along with 7 other gull species
including GBBG and Iceland. To me this is a very striking bird with several
Slaty-backed characteristics...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

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Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Mon Mar 2 2015 18:45 pm
From: rexrowan AT gmail.com
 
I agree with Dave that this is a Brewer's, but would disagree with a
secondary point: in a flock of about 35 Rusty Blackbirds seen yesterday in
Gainesville, Florida, most of the males showed no discernible pale feather
edges.

Rex Rowan
Gainesville, Florida

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:28 PM, David Irons wrote:

> Rob,
>
> On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without
> hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a
> Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's.
> The absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this
> season, points away from Rusty
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons" wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty
> & Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
> Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
> more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
> winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:
> >
> > http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
> Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > Rob Parsons
> > Winnipeg, MB
> > CANADA
> > parsons8@mts.net
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Mon Mar 2 2015 17:18 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Rob,

On my home turf (western Oregon) I would call this a Brewer's without hesitation. Structurally, the bill seems a bit short and blunt tipped for a Rusty. The pattern and color of the iridescence seems spot-on for Brewer's. The absence of any pale feather edges, which I would expect to see at this season, points away from Rusty

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:59 PM, "Rob Parsons" wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty & Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species. Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:
>
> http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp
>
> Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Rob Parsons
> Winnipeg, MB
> CANADA
> parsons8@mts.net
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Fw: Blackbird link
Date: Mon Mar 2 2015 16:15 pm
From: parsons8 AT mymts.net
 
Hi all,

This is a wintering blackbird in Saskatchewan, Canada, where both Rusty &
Brewer's Blackbirds are rare in winter, particularly the latter species.
Photographs look good for Brewer's Blackbird. We would love to have a bit
more feedback, especially from those who see the bird more frequently in
winter. The following link will take you to the three photos:

http://imgur.com/a/Dagzp

Please feel free to respond to the list or to me, personally, or to Bob
Luterbach at tsb2001@sasktel.net

Cheers,


Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@mts.net

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Thick-billed Murre photos?
Date: Thu Feb 26 2015 7:18 am
From: chill AT coastal.edu
 
Thanks to all who have replied both on and off list, and forwarded helpful links and references.  It has been very helpful, and nobody has expressed any concerns about the ID as Thick-billed Murre.  In fact, some have been as much as 200% certain about it :-)

Chris

> On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:08 AM, norman deans van swelm wrote:
>
> Indeed, as Bruce says, a TBMU and I like to add a 1st winter individual. As to the question of breeding plumage in winter, most individuals of the nominate race of Common Murre (Guillemot) U.a.aalge incl. the bridled variant I have found in December were in full beeding plumage, none so of the southern rave albionis.
> Norman
>
> > Definitely a Thick-billed Murre.
> >
> > The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU.
> >
> > The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on the throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position.
> >
> > Bruce Mactavish
> > St. John's, Newfoundland
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU ] On Behalf Of Chris Hill
> > Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos some time soon:
> >
> > http://www.carolinabirdclub.or...
> >
> > I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos are somewhat distant and a little blurry.
> >
> > I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence?
> >
> > In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre.
> >
> > Chris Hill
> > ************************************************************************
> > Christopher E. Hill
> > Biology Department
> > Coastal Carolina University
> > Conway, SC 29528-1954
> > 843-349-2567
> > chill AT coastal.edu
> > http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/c...
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
> > Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
> > Versie: 2015.0.5736 / Virusdatabase: 4299/9178 - datum van uitgifte: 02/25/15
> >

************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm






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Subject: Thick-billed Murre photos?
Date: Wed Feb 25 2015 21:19 pm
From: paulagics.com AT gmail.com
 
Here's a good link about some birds that appeared in Mass. back in 1998.
The pictures and comments are instructive, especially the first one by some
guy named "Bruce". The information on how they molt in their face and neck
is pertinent to your bird.

http://www.virtualbirder.com/v...



-PAG

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Bruce Mactavish <
bruce.mactavish1@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Definitely a Thick-billed Murre.
>
> The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and
> relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU.
>
> The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on
> the throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position.
>
> Bruce Mactavish
> St. John's, Newfoundland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Hill
> Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?
>
> Hi all,
>
> The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos
> some time soon:
>
> http://www.carolinabirdclub.or...
>
> I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if
> those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the
> photos are somewhat distant and a little blurry.
>
> I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill
> that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would
> I guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence?
>
> In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close
> behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre.
>
> Chris Hill
> ************************************************************************
> Christopher E. Hill
> Biology Department
> Coastal Carolina University
> Conway, SC 29528-1954
> 843-349-2567
> chill AT coastal.edu
> http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/c...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--







*Paul A. GurisSee Life PaulagicsPO Box 161Green Lane, PA
18054215-234-6805www.paulagics.com paulagics.com
@gmail.com info@paulagics.com
*

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Subject: Thick-billed Murre photos?
Date: Wed Feb 25 2015 17:52 pm
From: bruce.mactavish1 AT nf.sympatico.ca
 
Definitely a Thick-billed Murre.

The pointed bill with tapered head rules out Razorbill. The dark face and relatively short bill is good for TBMU and wrong for COMU.

The bird is not in breeding plumage. There is some paleness observable on the throat even while the bird is in a slouched down position.

Bruce Mactavish
St. John's, Newfoundland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Hill
Sent: February-25-15 6:17 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thick-billed Murre photos?

Hi all,

The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos some time soon:

http://www.carolinabirdclub.or...

I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos are somewhat distant and a little blurry.

I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence?

In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre.

Chris Hill
************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/c...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

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Subject: Thick-billed Murre photos?
Date: Wed Feb 25 2015 16:50 pm
From: chill AT coastal.edu
 
Hi all,

The South Carolina bird record committee will be voting on these photos some time soon:

http://www.carolinabirdclub.or...

I haven’t set eyes on a murre of any sort in 16 years and wondered if those who deal with large alcid ID more regularly might comment, as the photos are somewhat distant and a little blurry.

I see a bird in breeding plumage (is this normal for Feb 17?) with a bill that looks too small for a razorbill, and white wing linings. Which would I guess add up to TB Murre, but with how much confidence?

In this area Razorbill would be the most likely alcid, with dovekie close behind, then much rarer Thick-billed Murre, then even rarer Common Murre.

Chris Hill
************************************************************************
Christopher E. Hill
Biology Department
Coastal Carolina University
Conway, SC 29528-1954
843-349-2567
chill AT coastal.edu
http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/c...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Individual bird ID help needed
Date: Fri Feb 20 2015 2:12 am
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi Noah,

Your link takes us to a flikr album with two images on it:-
"P1012293 - Copy" and "P1012610 - Copy"

If you are asking us to compare these images I don’t think "P1012610 - Copy" gives us enough information for a meaningful comparison.

In both images I see a large sawtooth checker pattern comprising the nape, mantle and scapulars on both images, which is what I am assuming you are referring to. As you say that pattern is not visible in other images you have in the sequence such as https://www.flickr.com/photos/... so it must be due to shadow. I think this could just be coincidence.

You mentioned flight shots. Are these available anywhere?

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Noah Arthur
Sent: 20 February 2015 01:56
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Individual bird ID help needed

Hi everyone. Here are two photos of 1st-cycle gulls at Branched Oak Lake, Lincoln, NE, taken a few days apart. The first one was a good Slaty-backed candidate. I got flight shots of only the second one... What do you think, are these photos of the same individual?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I'm seeing what looks like the same pattern of light and dark feathering on the back, but could this just be light and shadow? At different angles, that dark "saddle" seemed to disappear entirely... But it looks real in these head-on photos...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

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Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Fri Feb 20 2015 1:40 am
From: dominic.mitchell AT yahoo.co.uk
 



Subject: Black Tern - underwing color and winter head patterns
Date: Thu Feb 19 2015 20:53 pm
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Although this post is directly tied to recent discussion on posted tern  
photos (BLTE or LETE ID query) and arguments posted there I want to express
some more thoughts about drawings used in published articles illustrating
differences between Black and White-winged Tern head pattern in winter
plumages and white-gray problem of BLTE underwings in photographs.

Discussion about BLTE vs. LETE ID seems to be divided between two camps and
as it was based on two rather poor photographs that show not many
important details and some details were lost in blown areas. Frankly, even that I
did not change nothing in my opinion I see no important purpose to argue any
further as both species are common and neither ID would bring something
exiting. I enjoyed reading all arguments.

Here I want to show a few photographs related to couple of traits discussed
before that can either misleading or are poorly documented.


Winter head pattern in Black Terns, both in guides and papers are shown
with dark crown. The bird guides cannot show all possible plumage patterns in
all species (limited space) but like in case of Black Tern this limitation
can be confusing especially in winter. On the other hand data about many
wintering terns (BLTE included) seems to be very limited and it seems that
often only traits of one subspecies (e.g., C. n. niger) are used as
representative; in case of BLTE of both subspecies ( niger and surinamensis). I
included in posted composite a couple of drawings from two latest articles
that were written on identification of winter plumages of three marsh tern
species (Black, White-winged and Whiskered Terns): Alstrom (1989) and
Williamson (1960). As we can see Black Tern in winter plumage, in both articles,
is illustrated with dark crown that should be distinctly different from
other two species that sports much paler crowns – trait to be used during
identification. Perhaps this is true with C. n. niger but definitely not with
surinamensis – I included a few examples that clearly (IMHO) show
surinamensis with very pale crown in basic plumage. In composite photographs number 1,
2 and 3; and as well still molting individual in photo number 4.

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

In the same composite I decided to include a couple more photos that will
enhance illustration of BLTE underwing color and how it shows in photos,
dependents on light and wing angle toward the light source.

Many important handbooks/guides show very poor collection of BLTE
illustrations. For example del Hoyo has only one BLTE color drawing, in breeding
plumage and only in resting pose (none on the wing). Underwing is usually
shown as gray that is contrasting with white body in winter plumage and as an
important ID trait; this trait was used in BLTE vs. LETE discussion. Gray
underwing can easy be noticed in photo number 2 and 4. It can look much
darker (not illustrated in composite). Perhaps Sibley illustrates this trait
well in drawings on page 234 (surinamensis). On the other hand,
interestingly, in Olsen and Larsson surinamensis summer underwing (page 152 drawing #7)
is shown very pale that seems to be paler compare to niger (page 152
drawing #6). Although here most of taken surinamensis photographs show rather
dark underwings (not illustrated) in some cases, depends on lighting,
underwings can look pale (number 3 in composite). And of course we have cases pf
not ideal exposure and/or harsh lighting that can produce photographs in
which underwing looks white (number 6 in composite). BTW I usually do not
keep these kind of photos (it is also not sharp) but here I caught a moment
of upside down position during air maneuvers – something I am interested
just to document, especially in tern species.

In this post I wanted to stress that surinamensis crown in winter plumage
can be very pale and can be similar to White-winged head pattern, something
not noted in published books and papers. As surinamensis population during
winter seems to be very poorly studied the head pattern in winter plumage
needs more study. Underwing color in photos can be inaccurate and,
sometimes, cannot be accurate determinate from single photos. It could be
interesting to hear opinions about color differences between niger and surinamensis
underwings in both plumages, basic and alternate.

As I mentioned my weakness for trying to collect birds on the wing in
upside down position during hunting or flock maneuvers below is a link to just
updated collection. Perhaps some like to see curious things. Not too many
for so many years of trying - 9 species total (raptors during aggressive
encounters and courtship are not included – these are easier to get):

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...



Cheers,

Mark

Mark B Bartosik
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Individual bird ID help needed
Date: Thu Feb 19 2015 20:28 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Hi everyone. Here are two photos of 1st-cycle gulls at Branched Oak Lake,
Lincoln, NE, taken a few days apart. The first one was a good Slaty-backed
candidate. I got flight shots of only the second one... What do you think,
are these photos of the same individual?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I'm seeing what looks like the same pattern of light and dark feathering on
the back, but could this just be light and shadow? At different angles,
that dark "saddle" seemed to disappear entirely... But it looks real in
these head-on photos...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE/Oakland, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Thu Feb 19 2015 8:41 am
From: dominic.mitchell AT yahoo.co.uk
 



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Wed Feb 18 2015 18:06 pm
From: longicaudus AT gmail.com
 
Hi all,

I don´t think I can add any further arguments to my case, I would just
repeat myself. But I would suppose it is far more likely with a Least Tern
from a late brood in difficult light conditions, than a Black Tern with odd
head pattern, odd shape and that lacks any sign of dark secondaries and
inner primaries.

Regards,

Hans

2015-02-18 23:25 GMT+01:00 Mike O'Keeffe :

> Hi,
>
> A really interesting debate over what are let's face it a couple of really
> poor images. I'm on the Least Tern side of the fence personally, albeit it
> somewhat reluctantly.
>
> - For me structurally this looks more like a Least/Little Tern than a
> Chlidonias sp. The wings seem too long, narrow and tapered for a
> Chlidonias.
> - The facial and crown pattern seem to fit juvenile/1st winter Least Tern
> very well but not so much a Chlidonias sp.
> - Like Hans I am also drawn to what looks like definitive white tips to
> each of the inner primaries and outer secondaries - best seen by darkening
> image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" and looking at the upper surface of the far
> wing. Note I wouldn't be inclined to trust as much the impression of this
> feature given by the backlit secondaries (near wing of both images). And,
> I wouldn’t be too concerned by the apparent lack of the feature in the more
> backlit of the two images - that is a bizarrely lit image if ever I saw one.
> - There appears to be an impression of contrastingly pale outer greater
> coverts also on image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" - another feature in
> support of Least Tern. Though this could be due to glare.
>
> As for the seemingly brownish smudge on the breast side. Yes it seems
> anomalous for Least in September. Could it just be that - simply an
> anomaly, perhaps staining or an injury? There seems to be a peculiar bump
> between the wing and this feature in image "9919372136_f687b79cb8_o"
> suggesting there may be some feather displacement involved.
>
> On balance I see more in support of a Least than a Chlidonias sp.
>
> That’s enough staring at tea leaves for me.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike O'Keeffe
> Ireland
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:
> BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
> Sent: 18 February 2015 18:36
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chlidonias tern query
>
> In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> longicaudus@GMAIL.COM writes:
>
> The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show,
> although in normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:
> All,
>
> First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern
> during first year of its life.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in color
> and it is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very
> quickly. What is more important in this case this pale buff patch
> disappears completely long before back and upperwing feathers either start
> to molt or wear out loosing its scaly appearance.
>
> BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed photos.
> In Jason’s posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is dark,
> very well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from
> rather poorly defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in
> juvenile LETE. In his photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a
> hint of scaly appearance something that will be noticeable even in poorly
> exposed photo that shows rather even coloration in not blown areas of the
> upper parts.
> Migrating HY LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old
> (banded) and might, at that time, just start to molt back and upperwing.
> Patch is practically gone.
>
> Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this
> moment I see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote
> before.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Wed Feb 18 2015 16:48 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
Hi,

A really interesting debate over what are let's face it a couple of really poor images. I'm on the Least Tern side of the fence personally, albeit it somewhat reluctantly.

- For me structurally this looks more like a Least/Little Tern than a Chlidonias sp. The wings seem too long, narrow and tapered for a Chlidonias.
- The facial and crown pattern seem to fit juvenile/1st winter Least Tern very well but not so much a Chlidonias sp.
- Like Hans I am also drawn to what looks like definitive white tips to each of the inner primaries and outer secondaries - best seen by darkening image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" and looking at the upper surface of the far wing. Note I wouldn't be inclined to trust as much the impression of this feature given by the backlit secondaries (near wing of both images). And, I wouldn’t be too concerned by the apparent lack of the feature in the more backlit of the two images - that is a bizarrely lit image if ever I saw one.
- There appears to be an impression of contrastingly pale outer greater coverts also on image "9919392633_491d26d4a1_o" - another feature in support of Least Tern. Though this could be due to glare.

As for the seemingly brownish smudge on the breast side. Yes it seems anomalous for Least in September. Could it just be that - simply an anomaly, perhaps staining or an injury? There seems to be a peculiar bump between the wing and this feature in image "9919372136_f687b79cb8_o" suggesting there may be some feather displacement involved.

On balance I see more in support of a Least than a Chlidonias sp.

That’s enough staring at tea leaves for me.

Regards

Mike O'Keeffe
Ireland



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
Sent: 18 February 2015 18:36
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Chlidonias tern query

In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, longicaudus@GMAIL.COM writes:

The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although in normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:
All,

First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern during first year of its life.

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in color and it is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very quickly. What is more important in this case this pale buff patch disappears completely long before back and upperwing feathers either start to molt or wear out loosing its scaly appearance.

BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed photos.
In Jason’s posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is dark, very well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from rather poorly defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in juvenile LETE. In his photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a hint of scaly appearance something that will be noticeable even in poorly exposed photo that shows rather even coloration in not blown areas of the upper parts.
Migrating HY LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old (banded) and might, at that time, just start to molt back and upperwing. Patch is practically gone.

Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this moment I see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote before.

Cheers,

Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Wed Feb 18 2015 13:12 pm
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
In a message dated 2/18/2015 8:38:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
longicaudus@GMAIL.COM writes:

The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although
in normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:
All,

First here is an composite photo illustrating plumages of Least Tern
during first year of its life.

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

As we can see what we can call breast patch is very pale buff in color and
it is only shown for a very short period of time and diminishes very
quickly. What is more important in this case this pale buff patch disappears
completely long before back and upperwing feathers either start to molt or
wear out loosing its scaly appearance.

BTW this pale buff patch will be first to be blown in overexposed photos.
In Jason’s posted photos (rather overexposed) the breast patch is dark,
very well defined and narrow but long; nothing one would expect from rather
poorly defined, pale buff and wider patch seen for short time in juvenile
LETE. In his photos back and upperwing feathers show no even a hint of scaly
appearance something that will be noticeable even in poorly exposed photo
that shows rather even coloration in not blown areas of the upper parts.
Migrating HY LETEs can reach Texas shore when less than two months old (banded)
and might, at that time, just start to molt back and upperwing. Patch is
practically gone.

Jason - thanks for posting other people private arguments - at this moment
I see nothing what would make me back off from anything I wrote before.

Cheers,

Mark
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Wed Feb 18 2015 9:10 am
From: longicaudus AT gmail.com
 
Hi all,

The white secondaries and inner primaries, well visible from below as Tony
states, is the key plumage feature to exclude any chlidonias tern. Bear in
mind that the light and photo quality enhances darker and paler shades, so
if there would be a darker trailing edge to the wing it would appear almost
blackish here, as is the case with the leading edge of the wing.

The light also enhances the breast patch, that Least Tern do show, although
in normal conditions it is more discretely coloured:

http://www.150.parks.ca.gov/pa...

http://harrisbrownphotography....

http://www.outbackphoto.com/na...

http://ww.marinascarrphotograp...

http://nathistoc.bio.uci.edu/b...

http://www.stevemetildi.com/ga...

Moreover I would expect to see at least some sign of a white ring behind
the eye even in a distant shot, and a more rounded and smooth overall
shape. Jason´s bird shows the typical angular outline and also the narrow
wings I expect from a Least Tern.


With best regards,

Hans

2015-02-17 20:55 GMT+01:00 Tony Leukering :

> All:
>
> I think that Jason's bird
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> is odd in at least a couple of respects. And having been one of the folks
> that he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with
> the bird's ID.
>
> The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the
> upper side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be
> useful) for the bird to be considered a Chlidonias. However, the under
> side to the wings -- which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded
> -- look far too white for Black Tern in any plumage. While one might then
> start considering White-winged Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder
> bar. I think that Whiskered Tern is right out. Additionally at odds with,
> at least, typical American Black Tern (surinamensis), is the minimalness of
> the shoulder bar, which is virtually always considerably thicker and much
> more obvious.
>
> I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed
> to me to rule out any other tern options. While the bird looks fairly good
> for a member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all
> likely in the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar.
>
> So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely
> for ID opinions.
>
> BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken
> recently in Florida can be found on Flickr.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's
> bird), the under side to the wings are obviously dark.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> conservation & community
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> travel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA Blog » #abarare
>
> #ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
> Feb 7, 2015
> On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated
> Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park…
>
> #ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
> Feb 2, 2015
> On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare
> visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden…
>
> #ABArare – Common Scoter – California
> Feb 1, 2015
> On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common
> Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in…
>
> The TOP 10: Best ABA Area Vagrants of 2014
> Jan 29, 2015
> By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for
> vagrants, particularly unexpected ones, and a hard…
>
> #ABArare – Gray-crowned Yellowthroat – Texas
> Jan 25, 2015
> A bird walk yesterday morning led by Huck Hutchens at Estero Llano Grande
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>
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>
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>
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Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Wed Feb 18 2015 9:09 am
From: hoeksema AT olemiss.edu
 
Thanks to all who have replied about this tern. It may turn out that the
lighting on these photos is too harsh to make a definitive determination,
but I appreciate the discussion.

Mark: As you requested, I am pasting below the remarks made by one European
expert, who thought this bird looked more like a 'European' Black Tern:

"Anyway, this is a very interesting tern and first off, it certainly isn't
a *surinamensis* American Black Tern. The underwing and flanks look
startlingly white and this appears consistent in various lighting
situations found in the images, plus there is a stark contrast with the
dark breast 'peg' and the flanks which seems to clearly eliminate American
Black Tern.

In the images with which it can be made out the crown looks really rather
pale, perhaps greyish, which isn't usually a feature of 'European' Black
Tern and is more in line with American Black Tern but I am conscious that
the images appear to have been taken in bright sunlight and that a certain
amount of 'bleaching' of the true colour might be occurring here,
particularly as the crown is in direct sunlight. I cannot make out the
colour of the rump (it looks very pale-whitish) but again, the sunlight
might be having a big effect here. I also considered White-winged Black
Tern as I have seen individuals with 'residual' dark breast pegs (there is
one in the Black Tern/White-winged Black Tern article on my website) but
your bird obviously strikes me as a Black Tern (though in a couple of
images it does appear quite 'petite' looking more akin to White-winged
Black Tern?).

So on the face of it the bird appears, from the images available, to be a
'European' Black Tern but that comes with the caveat that more images may
well throw other features into the mix and they may well impact further on
that identification."

Jason



On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Tony Leukering
wrote:

> All:
>
> I think that Jason's bird
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> is odd in at least a couple of respects. And having been one of the folks
> that he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with
> the bird's ID.
>
> The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the
> upper side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be
> useful) for the bird to be considered a Chlidonias. However, the under
> side to the wings -- which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded
> -- look far too white for Black Tern in any plumage. While one might then
> start considering White-winged Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder
> bar. I think that Whiskered Tern is right out. Additionally at odds with,
> at least, typical American Black Tern (surinamensis), is the minimalness of
> the shoulder bar, which is virtually always considerably thicker and much
> more obvious.
>
> I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed
> to me to rule out any other tern options. While the bird looks fairly good
> for a member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all
> likely in the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar.
>
> So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely
> for ID opinions.
>
> BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken
> recently in Florida can be found on Flickr.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's
> bird), the under side to the wings are obviously dark.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony Leukering
> Largo, FL
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
> http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> gear
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> listing & taxonomy
>
>
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> conservation & community
>
> ABA's FREE guide to
> travel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ABA Blog » #abarare
>
> #ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
> Feb 7, 2015
> On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated
> Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park…
>
> #ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
> Feb 2, 2015
> On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare
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> All:
>
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
>
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
>
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
>
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
>
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
>
> Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
>
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
>
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
>
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
>
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
>
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
>
> Jason Hoeksema
>
> Oxford, MS
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
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> On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated
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>
> #ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
> Feb 2, 2015
> On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare
> visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden…
>
> #ABArare – Common Scoter – California
> Feb 1, 2015
> On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common
> Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in…
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> Jan 29, 2015
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--
Dr. Jason D. Hoeksema, Associate Professor
Department of Biology
University of Mississippi
phone: 662-915-1275
lab website

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Tue Feb 17 2015 17:45 pm
From: lgordinho AT yahoo.co.uk
 



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Tue Feb 17 2015 14:47 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
 All:

I think that Jason's bird

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

is odd in at least a couple of respects. And having been one of the folks that he had originally queried, I thought that I'd lay out my problems with the bird's ID.

The upper side of the wings look dark enough in the first picture (the upper side to the wings is just too blown out in the second pic to be useful) for the bird to be considered a Chlidonias. However, the under side to the wings -- which are not overexposed at all, in fact, are shaded -- look far too white for Black Tern in any plumage. While one might then start considering White-winged Tern, that species lacks the bird's shoulder bar. I think that Whiskered Tern is right out. Additionally at odds with, at least, typical American Black Tern (surinamensis), is the minimalness of the shoulder bar, which is virtually always considerably thicker and much more obvious.

I then considered Least/Little Tern, as the proportions of the bird seemed to me to rule out any other tern options. While the bird looks fairly good for a member of Sternula in most respects, neither species that is at all likely in the U. S. southeast is supposed to sport a shoulder bar.

So, I'm at an impasse and suggested that Jason cast his net more widely for ID opinions.

BTW -- two pictures of a non-alternate-plumaged American Black Tern taken recently in Florida can be found on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

While the bird certainly sports a fairly white crown (as does Jason's bird), the under side to the wings are obviously dark.

Sincerely,

Tony





Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/






All:

I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in

Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern

with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast

peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached

out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American

Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several

experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion

that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern

and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least

Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.



I have only these 2 photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...



Thanks very much for any opinions.

Jason Hoeksema

Oxford, MS



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...












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On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park…

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On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden…

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On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in…

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By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for vagrants, particularly unexpected ones, and a hard…

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All:

I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in

Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern

with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast

peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached

out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American

Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several

experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion

that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern

and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least

Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.



I have only these 2 photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...



Thanks very much for any opinions.

Jason Hoeksema

Oxford, MS



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...












ABA's FREE guide to
gear

ABA's FREE guide to
listing & taxonomy



ABA's FREE guide to
conservation & community

ABA's FREE guide to
travel









ABA Blog » #abarare

#ABArare – White-throated Thrush – Texas
Feb 7, 2015
On February 6, 2015, Todd McGrath found an ABA Code 4 White-throated Thrush at Estero Llano Grande State Park…

#ABArare – Fieldfare – Nova Scotia
Feb 2, 2015
On January 31, Kathleen Spicer discovered an ABA Code 4 Fieldfare visiting a fruiting apple tree in her garden…

#ABArare – Common Scoter – California
Feb 1, 2015
On January 25, Bill Bouton found and photographed an apparent Common Scoter in the Crescent City boat basin in…

The TOP 10: Best ABA Area Vagrants of 2014
Jan 29, 2015
By Nate Swick and George Armistead 2013 was an incredible year for vagrants, particularly unexpected ones, and a hard…

#ABArare – Gray-crowned Yellowthroat – Texas
Jan 25, 2015
A bird walk yesterday morning led by Huck Hutchens at Estero Llano Grande State Park in Hidalgo Co, Texas,…


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Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Tue Feb 17 2015 14:07 pm
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Hi Jason

First this is not a juvenile Least Tern for many reasons, especially the
fact that it sports clearly visible ‘breast patch’ that is one of traits of
Black Tern here and it is never shown in Least Terns. I would not even take
it (LETE) under consideration and if others might think otherwise I would
like to read their arguments.

In the past I tried to start discussions on tern plumages in several
places (as I have quite extensive collection of photos showing inconsequence
and/or perhaps limited knowledge about this subject in published articles and
guides; many wintering terns were not studied extensively) but lack of
interest stopped my effort to continue processing photos and posting them. In
fact I started (but decided to stop for reason listed above) putting
together collection of winter plumages of some terns, including Black Tern, which
is one of the good examples showing that published data is incomplete and
in some cases could be misleading.

To me everything in your photos seems to point to Black Tern C. n.
surinamensis in winter plumage (Whiskered and White-winged do not sport breast
patch either). In fact I could easily call it typical surinamensis in range of
winter plumage pattern (according to my own data but not the` published
examples). Statement that this is “definitely‘ not an American Black Tern is
very interesting, at least to me - was it based on arguments? If yes, could
you please copy them here? C. n. niger is always illustrated in winter
plumage with very dark crown (as I did not study this subspecies in the field
I can only relay on what was published on this subject). But surinamensis
can sports almost white crown in winter plumage (not portrayed in
literature; and on the other hand easily blown to completely white in overexposed
photo) that matches or even excess what we would expect in ‘typical’
White-winged in basic plumage (as per published data - this is another species I
have no field experience) .

I waited to see what others will post but with lack of replies I decided to
add my 2 cents, and I am still very interested to see what others might
add.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark B Bartosik
Houston, Texas


In a message dated 2/16/2015 9:17:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,
hoeksema@OLEMISS.EDU writes:

All:
I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.

I have only these 2 photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

Thanks very much for any opinions.
Jason Hoeksema
Oxford, MS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Tue Feb 17 2015 3:22 am
From: longicaudus AT gmail.com
 
Hi Jason,

Among other details, white secondaries and inner primaries rule out the
*chlidonias* option, so Least Tern looks a very good match:
https://usfwsnortheast.files.w...

With best regards,
Hans

2015-02-17 4:15 GMT+01:00 Jason Hoeksema :

> All:
> I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
> Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
> with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
> peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
> out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
> Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
> experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
> that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
> and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
> Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.
>
> I have only these 2 photos:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
>
> Thanks very much for any opinions.
> Jason Hoeksema
> Oxford, MS
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Paul R Wood/UK/TLS/PwC is out of the office.
Date: Tue Feb 17 2015 1:10 am
From: paul.r.wood AT uk.pwc.com
 
I will be out of the office from 17/02/2015 until 19/02/2015.

I will respond to your message when I return.




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Subject: Chlidonias tern query
Date: Mon Feb 16 2015 21:41 pm
From: hoeksema AT olemiss.edu
 
All:
I would like to hear your opinions about this tern, which I photographed in
Mississippi, USA in fall, 2013. To me it looks like a *Chlidonias *tern
with fairly clean white underwings and flanks, and a fairly limited 'breast
peg'. The lighting/exposure is challenging (backlit and someone bleached
out), but this bird still, to me, does not seem to fit a typical American
Black Tern. I'm posting here now because I have sent the photos to several
experts, and have received a variety of opinions, including one assertion
that it is 'definitely' not a typical American ('surinamensis') Black Tern
and may be a European ('niger') Black Tern, a suggestion of juvenile Least
Tern, and additional suggestions to obtain more opinions.

I have only these 2 photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/j...

Thanks very much for any opinions.
Jason Hoeksema
Oxford, MS

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Hoary Redpoll question
Date: Mon Feb 16 2015 20:17 pm
From: may6 AT cornell.edu
 
I would ID both birds as a Hoary. I tried to post this on your blog too.

Matt Young
Ithaca, NY

________________________________________
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification on behalf of Jean Iron
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 6:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

The redpoll on the right in the second and third photos is almost certainly
a Hoary by its overall whiteness, almost unmarked undertail coverts, very
lightly marked sides, and its bill appears more obtuse (stubby) in the
second photo than on most Commons. The bird in the top photo and on the left
in the second and third photos may be a Hoary, but we hesitate to call it
one because the photos are slightly overexposed and fewer characters are
visible. Hoaries should be identified on a suite of characters - the more
characters the greater the certainty. Please see link for more information
on identifying Common and Hoary Redpolls and their subspecies ID.
http://jeaniron.ca/2015/redpol...

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of R.D. Everhart
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 4:28 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

Hey folks -

I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is a
Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the best three
shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good feel for this
species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the hundreds of redpolls we
saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...


Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Hoary Redpoll question
Date: Mon Feb 16 2015 18:21 pm
From: jeaniron AT sympatico.ca
 
The redpoll on the right in the second and third photos is almost certainly
a Hoary by its overall whiteness, almost unmarked undertail coverts, very
lightly marked sides, and its bill appears more obtuse (stubby) in the
second photo than on most Commons. The bird in the top photo and on the left
in the second and third photos may be a Hoary, but we hesitate to call it
one because the photos are slightly overexposed and fewer characters are
visible. Hoaries should be identified on a suite of characters - the more
characters the greater the certainty. Please see link for more information
on identifying Common and Hoary Redpolls and their subspecies ID.
http://jeaniron.ca/2015/redpol...

Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron
Toronto, Ontario



-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of R.D. Everhart
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 4:28 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question

Hey folks -

I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is a
Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the best three
shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good feel for this
species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the hundreds of redpolls we
saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...


Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Hoary Redpoll question
Date: Mon Feb 16 2015 16:53 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
 Hi Roger:

I would ID both birds in pix 2 and 3 as Hoaries. Both birds are of a size and both are quite frosty. Additionally, the upper bird's rump is immaculate, while the streaking on the undertail coverts of the lower bird is within the range of variation for the species.

Tony




Tony Leukering
Largo, FL

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: R.D. Everhart
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Mon, Feb 16, 2015 4:30 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Hoary Redpoll question


Hey folks -

I was up in northern Minnesota yesterday and saw what I believe is
a Hoary Redpoll and I'm looking for some input. I have posted the
best three shots that I think will be of use. If anyone has a good
feel for this species please feel free to give an opinion. Of the
hundreds of redpolls we saw yesterday I only saw 2 that I think fit
Hoary.

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...


Thanks for the help.

Roger Everhart
Apple Valley, MN

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Hoary Redpoll question
Date: Mon Feb 16 2015 16:23 pm
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
In a message dated 16/02/2015 21:30:46 GMT Standard Time,
everhart@BLACK-HOLE.COM writes:

http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogs...
Your bird looks good for HORNEMANNI (Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll) to me -
nice buffish wash to head & face, short, pinched-in bill, heavily cloaked
tarsi feathers, gleaming white flank sides, breast & undertail coverts, pure
white wing-bars, bulky size, somewhat rounded appearance with more heavily
cloaked body feathers, etc - can't see too much of a problem with it

Very best wishes

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

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Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Thu Feb 12 2015 14:05 pm
From: dominic.mitchell AT yahoo.co.uk
 
Hi Luis and all
I came late to this thread but nonetheless would like to add my 50 (euro) cents.
In my view your bird is, as Alvaro and others have already stated, a Lesser Black-backed Gull. Without repeating the reasons given by others, its relatively small size (for a large gull) and placid demeanour, as well as structure, head and bill profile, and certain plumage features all point in combination to Lesser Black-backed Gull. I see nothing really problematic with tail pattern, given the variation shown by this species. It is not an 'Azores Gull' (Larus michahellis atlantis) in my opinion, this taxon rarely retaining juvenile plumage beyond September and apparently only exceptionally so beyond October (only a handful out of the thousands of 1cy Azores Gulls I've seen over the last nine Octobers have appeared obviously juvenile). In any case, young Azores Gulls have a quite different character, generally looking more brutish and strongly built, and plumage-wise having irregular, patchy 'charcoal' streaking tainting significant areas of the plumage, especially the face and underparts. They look scraggy and dishevelled, far from the near-immaculate appearance of this bird, which while perhaps late in moult terms and darker than average, otherwise shows some good Lesser Black-back features such as largely dark greater coverts and no pale 'window' on the inner primaries.
As for California Gull, there are no accepted records on the European side of the Atlantic and, as far as I'm aware, no hard evidence to support any unsubmitted claims you may have heard about, from The Netherlands or anywhere else in the Western Palearctic. If anyone has photos or video to the contrary, I'd love to see them.
I hope this helps,
Dominic Mitchell 
----------------------------------------------------------------Managing Editor | Birdwatch and BirdGuidesBlog: www.birdingetc.com | Twitter: @birdingetc Facebook | Bird tours: Azores and more
From: Luis Gordinho
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 18:06
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?

Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European ones! More indetail…Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gu... like a great resource Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe…”You meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): http://www.aba.org/birding/v41... paradigmatic is a Portuguese birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish (http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks again and keep up the good and friendly birding!Luís G
       From: Steve Hampton
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
 
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/ca...





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the
> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does
> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*
> >>
> http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro
> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435@gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

 
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Thu Feb 12 2015 12:41 pm
From: lgordinho AT yahoo.co.uk
 
Dear Alvaro,Floyd, Norman, Suzanne, Martin & Steve,Many thanksto all six for your comments.I’m a membersince 2009 and I only did four or five posts, so such warm (re-)welcome wassomehow surprising (but very appreciated!). It is sad, but fair, to say that AmericanBirders are much friendlier than European ones! More indetail…Alvaro, Floyd,Norman, Suzanne & Steve: thanks for helping me to completely excludeCalifornia G. Obviously my desire to score big and my lack of experience withCalifornia G got the best of me!http://www.tertial.us/gulls/gu... like a great resource Steve! Norman:“There havebeen several California Gulls in Europe…”You meanclaims or records? Are there any records accepted by rarities committees?Inparticular, apart from your two claims/records from The Netherlands (1-1stsummer + 1ad), do you know if there are any others?“Larusatlantis races as these are very common in Portugal”I gotscared at first when I read this sentence (since atlantis is a rarity inContinental Portugal) but then I realized that you use Larus atlantis for whatmost “taxonomic authorities”* call Larus michahellis (which is indeed common inContinental Portugal).I read someof the text in the 3rd link you provide, so now I realize you use “yourown” taxonomy. And, IMO, you’re more than welcome to do it, of course.(*pleasenote that I’m for the authority of arguments and against the argument ofauthority so, when I say “taxonomic authorities”, I mean taxonomic committeesthat use valid arguments to elect, standardize and publish avian taxonomy inpeer-reviewed journals)Your photosof Azorean Atlantic Gull from The Netherlands are very nice and useful Norman.And so are the Pep Arcos + Peter Alfrey photos you present Martin. Norman& Martin:Thanks foradding more good arguments to the “atlantis theory” initially proposed by FrédéricJiguet. It is paradigmatic that I would be fooled by a pitfall that I’ve triedwarning North American Birders of in my 2009 Birding article (cf. p. 44): http://www.aba.org/birding/v41... paradigmatic is a Portuguese birder being helped by a French birder toID an Azorean gull (The Azores are Portuguese territory, even if located 860miles away from Continental Portugal in a different biogeographic region). Thisis a weaker paradigm though, since top birders in the Azores are Swedish andEnglish (http://birdingazores.com/?page=xlist&s=0)and Fred has been to the Azores more times than me!Until moreevidence or better arguments came up, I’ll call this bird an AtlanticYellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis).Cheers,thanks again and keep up the good and friendly birding!Luís G
  From: Steve Hampton
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2015, 5:08
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?

The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls.  In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above.  From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments.  Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest.  By fall and winter they look totally different.  Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/ca...





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe  safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark.  Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety.  I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the
> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does
> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >>  - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >>  - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >>  - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*
> >>
> http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro
> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435@gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 23:29 pm
From: stevechampton AT gmail.com
 
The dark upper tail/banded under tail is actually a fairly common feature
with many 1st cycle gulls. In California, where Western and Calif Gulls
predominate along the coast, both look mostly dark tailed from above. From
below, though, Calif Gull shows a thick dark band with pale bases at the
corners (though usually patterned dark and light-- but much more light from
below).

As for the subject bird, I agree with Alvaro's comments. Calif Gulls can
look superficially like this (but with a darker tail) in July-Aug when
fresh off the nest. By fall and winter they look totally different. Now
they look like Figures 13, 14, and 15 here:
http://www.tertial.us/gulls/ca...





On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Reid Martin wrote:

> Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the
> underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost
> closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.
>
> This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity
> for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to
> the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs.
> When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird,
> there is very little white visible even though from below it looks
> white-based.
>
> Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in
> rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> -and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two
> pics of standing birds:
> http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Luis,
> > I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe safe to say, this
> gull
> > is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> > only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
> > ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost
> all
> > black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> > guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues,
> some
> > can be very dark. Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest
> looks
> > velvety. I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
> > coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> >> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also
> have
> >> a look at the captions)
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For
> those
> >> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof
> >> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> >> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> >> beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> >> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> >> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> >> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> >> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks,
> more
> >> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird
> seamed
> >> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide,
> 2.nd
> >> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> >> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> >> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it
> had
> >> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the
> >> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made
> a
> >> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went
> by
> >> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> >> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> >> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> >> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several
> points
> >> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
> >> “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does
> >> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> >> - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> >> - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> >> - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> >> coverts for such adark bird.
> >> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G
> would
> >> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*
> >>
> http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro
> >> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> >> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> >> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> >> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> >> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail
> feathers
> >> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> >> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> >> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> >> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos
> of
> >> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> >> http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric
> >> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> >> via Flickrjust now:
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any
> ideas?
> >> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G
> >>
> >> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Suzanne M. Sullivan
> > Wilmington, MA
> > swampy435@gmail.com
> >
> > Be the Voice of the River
> > http://www.ipswichriver.org
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
Steve Hampton
Davis, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 22:56 pm
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Actually Suzanne, There is a 1st year gull tail white half of the underside and almost all black on the upper side - when held almost closed:- Azorean Yellow-legged Gull.

This tail pattern can be found in Azorean Gull because of their propensity for having the inner webs of the outer Rs almost unmarked white (basal to the dark band) while having far less white on the outer webs of these Rs. When the tail is held almost closed, as on the pics of the Portuguese bird, there is very little white visible even though from below it looks white-based.

Have a look at these Azorean Gulls - and also note the variation in rump/utc pattern, with some quite densely-marked:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

-and on this page look at the tail of the bird just above the final two pics of standing birds:
http://www.martinreid.com/Gull...

Regards,
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com




On Feb 11, 2015, at Feb 11, 9:34 PM, Suzanne Sullivan wrote:

> Luis,
> I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe safe to say, this gull
> is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
> only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I dont think Ive
> ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost all
> black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
> guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues, some
> can be very dark. Or a Thayers gull with pigment issues. The chest looks
> velvety. I can see HERG and Thayers in there but also LBBG in the solid
> coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho
> wrote:
>
>> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
>> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have
>> a look at the captions)
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For those
>> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full storyOn the 14thof
>> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
>> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
>> beach,Almada (Setbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
>> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
>> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
>> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
>> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more
>> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed
>> to denny two ofCollins BG if evers [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd
>> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
>> American Herring GullBreast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
>> uniformOnce I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had
>> no light windows in the innerhands, thereby completely excluding the
>> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a
>> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by
>> and I didnt.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
>> Charless adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
>> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
>> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points
>> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light windows in the inner
>> hands in particular looks fatal butIn addition, I thinkthe bird does
>> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
>> - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
>> - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
>> - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
>> coverts for such adark bird.
>> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would
>> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*) (*
>> http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro
>> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
>> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
>> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
>> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
>> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers
>> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
>> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but Id
>> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
>> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of
>> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I cant find any,e.g. here
>> http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frdric
>> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
>> via Flickrjust now:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any ideas?
>> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Lus G
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Suzanne M. Sullivan
> Wilmington, MA
> swampy435@gmail.com
>
> Be the Voice of the River
> http://www.ipswichriver.org
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 22:03 pm
From: swampy435 AT gmail.com
 
Luis,
I agree also not a California gull. One thing maybe safe to say, this gull
is very young. It looks like it just hopped off the nest, it is so fresh,
only a couple of new scaps. The tail is just bizarre. I don’t think I’ve
ever seen a 1st year gull tail white half of the under side and almost all
black on the upper side. I think this gull may have pigment issues. My
guess is it is a Northern Type Herring Gull with some pigment issues, some
can be very dark. Or a Thayer’s gull with pigment issues. The chest looks
velvety. I can see HERG and Thayer’s in there but also LBBG in the solid
coverts. Maybe a Thayers X LBBG hybrid? Very cool.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Luis Gordinho
wrote:

> Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album
> below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have
> a look at the captions)
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For those
> of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof
> December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13
> photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria
> beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed
> mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen
> (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What
> stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the
> plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more
> evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed
> to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd
> Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as
> American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever
> uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had
> no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the
> remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a
> mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by
> and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek
> Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on
> January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while
> fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points
> seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner
> “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does
> have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
> - Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
> - Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
> - Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear
> coverts for such adark bird.
> So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would
> be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*
> http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro
> Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and
> axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and
> undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro
> LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by
> December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers
> visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in
> juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d
> still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird
> (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of
> equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here
> http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric
> Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis)
> via Flickrjust now:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any ideas?
> Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
Suzanne M. Sullivan
Wilmington, MA
swampy435@gmail.com

Be the Voice of the River
http://www.ipswichriver.org

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park Reservoir
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 20:17 pm
From: pwpost AT nyc.rr.com
 
This should have been included with my last post. Sorry.

Peter

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Kai
> Date: February 7, 2015 6:37:03 PM EST
> To: Brian Whipple , NYSBirds l@cornell.edu>, eBirdsNYC
> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park
> Reservoir
> Reply-To: Kai
>
> Photos of the gull are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/
> 123166253@N05/sets/72157650700330615/
> One of the photos shows the bird with wings outstretched, showing a
> Thayer's-like wingtip pattern above (black on the outer webs of
> primaries) and below (small amount of black visible around edges).
> The other two photos show the bird sitting - one with a Herring
> Gull in the foreground for comparison. The legs were a deep pink
> and the head had a fair amount of streaking (although some of the
> Herring Gulls present showed these characteristics as well). The
> rounded head and relatively small-looking bill, combined with the
> pattern on the wingtips, seem like the best reasons to call this a
> Thayer's. Would be great to hear what others think.
>
> Brian Whipple, Drew Haluska and I spent over an hour trying to
> relocate the gull this afternoon, with no luck. This bird was seen
> at the southwestern end of the reservoir, where a patch of open
> water was drawing a lot of gulls closer to the edge of the
> reservoir than they normally would be.
>
> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 16:17:37 -0500
> Subject: Re:[nysbirds-l] POSSIBLE Thayer's Gull on Central Park
> Reservoir
> From: brian.whipple@gmail.com
> To: NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu; ebirdsnyc@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sorry, the suspect is an ADULT gull.
> On Feb 7, 2015 3:54 PM, "Brian Whipple"
> wrote:
> Kai Sheffield and I are looking at gulls on the CP Reservoir,
> searching for one that Kai spotted earlier and thinks may have been
> a possible Thayer's Gull.
> He has photos, but we can't attach because they're on a point-and-
> click camera.
> We know weird Herring Gulls can look like Thayer's. We are NOT
> calling this a Thayer's, but if anyone nearby has a scope and wants
> to come look, please do, and let us know.
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive
> Surfbirds
> BirdingOnThe.Net
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
> --
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive
> Surfbirds
> BirdingOnThe.Net
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
> --


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Any opinions on this gull
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 19:50 pm
From: pwpost AT nyc.rr.com
 
Any opinions on the ID of this gull? Thayer's is extremely rare in SE
NYS.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Inexlicabily, no one on the NYS Listserv has offered an opinion.

Thanks,

Peter

Peter Post
New York City
pwpost@nyc.rr.com





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 17:50 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Luis

A very quick comment. This is absolutely not a California Gull, that you can take off the list. Various reasons why, major ones being the bill pattern and tail pattern. My thought based on structure and plumage is that it is an unusually dark Lesser Black-backed Gull. If I saw this in North America, I would be puzzled but identify it as that.

Regards,
Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Luis Gordinho
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 2:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?

Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have a look at the captions)https://www.flickr.com/photos/... For those of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13 photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Unde!
rtail: seldomif ever as densely barred as American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:
- Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
- Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
- Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear coverts for such adark bird.
So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric J!
iguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis) via Flickrjust now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any ideas? Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: 1cy Atlantic YLG, very dark LBBG or California G?
Date: Wed Feb 11 2015 16:24 pm
From: lgordinho AT yahoo.co.uk
 
Dear List Members,Can you please havea look at the photos in the album below and let me know what you think? If so,many thanks! (please also have a look at the captions)https://www.flickr.com/photos/... those of you whoenjoy/endure long texts, here is the full story…On the 14thof December 2014, between 1:30 and 1:45 PM, I saw and photographed (13 photos)what looked like a very dark 1st-w (1cy) LBBG at Trafaria beach,Almada (Setúbal, Portugal). The bird had a fresh plumage composed mostly of 1stgeneration (juvenile) feathers, but a few 2nd gen (1st-w)mantle and scapular feathers were also visible (40+ maybe).What stroke me atfirst, more than the overall very dark brown colour of the plumage, was theuniform colour of the lower breast, belly and flanks, more evocative of 1cyAmerican HG than of LBBG! In more detail, this bird seamed to denny two ofCollins BG “if ever’s” [p. 184 of Collins Bird Guide, 2.nd Ed. (2010), LBBG(dark)]:“Undertail: seldomif ever as densely barred as American Herring Gull”“Breast: sometimesdark but rarely if ever uniform”Once I saw and photographedthe bird in flight, it was clear it had no light “windows” in the inner“hands”, thereby completely excluding the remote possibility of a very smalland elegant female American HG.I made a mental noteto let Killian Mullarney know about this bird, but time went by and I didn’t.Only when MichaelDavis gave me a heads-up about Derek Charles’s adult Larus schistisagus atKillybegs (Donegal, Ireland) on January the 19th 2015, did Iremember about this bird again (while fantasying about 1st-w Slaty-backedin Continental Portugal). Several points seem wrong for Slaty-backed and thelack of light “windows” in the inner “hands” in particular looks fatal but…In addition, I thinkthe bird does have several other unusual points for 1cy LBBG:   
- Legsvery pure, rather bright and a little purplish pink;
- Underwingcoverts and axillaries very (very!) dark;
- Facialpattern also a little hawkward, including rather pale ear coverts for such adark bird.
So, how aboutCalifornia Gull (Larus californicus)? Yes, California G would be 1stfor WP (cf. e.g. van den Berg 2014*)… (*http://www.dutchbirding.nl/content/page/files/DBupdateWPchecklistArnoud20141116.pdf)Pro Californiafeatures include:Darker and moreuniform underwing coverts and axillaries;Darker and moreuniform underparts;Heavily barredupper- and undertail coverts;Facial pattern andleg colour unusual for 1cy LBBG.Pro LBBG featuresinclude:Dark bill base(should be paler in California by December);Very little (butsome) white near the base of outer tail feathers visible on the upperside (thismay appear in 1st-w California but not in juvenile).I guess that thiswill end up as a very dark 1cy LBBG, but I’d still like to hear your comments.I think this is a very interesting bird (not an easy thing for a LBBG to be!).Maybe you can direct me to photos of equally dark 1cy LBBGs. I can’t find any,e.g. here http://www.gull-research.org/l... Frédéric Jiguetsuggested Atlantic Yellow-legged Gull (Larus michahellis atlantis) via Flickrjust now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/... Fred!Any ideas? Allcomments are welcome! Cheers and all the best, Luís G

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Subspecies by state?
Date: Mon Feb 9 2015 23:17 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Echoing the sentiments of Jerry and Kevin,

Gabrielson and Jewett's "Birds of Oregon" (1940) is such a book. It has entertained me for many hours over the course of my birding lifetime. I also remember poking through Forbush's "Birds of Massachusetts and other New England States" about 35 years ago and marveling at all the information about subspecies in that book. I think it was in that book that I encountered my all-time favorite common bird name...the Brotherly-Love Greenlet (Philadelphia Vireo).

I remain fascinated by attempts to better understand the identification and distribution of various Orange-crowned Warbler, Fox Sparrow, and White-crowned Sparrow populations. More recently, juncos have captured my attention. There are several lifetimes of work herein, but at least I know that I will never get bored.

A great modern source of subspecies info is Birds of North America Online. It requires a subscription, but it is worthwhile and updated regularly. I consult it nearly every week for some reason. I'm actually on my way there now to do some research about Hooded Oriole plumage progression.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR





Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Subspecies by state?
Date: Mon Feb 9 2015 22:36 pm
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Did I miss the post where someone mentioned the Clements 6.9 list/spreadsheet?  It is downloadable from Cornell, and I use it regularly to check on ssp. range.
Having said that, it is for the world, but it is easy to search for the species you are interested in. The other issue is accuracy; I have found a few errors in range - but Cornell are happy to accrue corrections for the next edition in July(?) of this year...

Martin
---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Feb 9, 2015, at Feb 9, 6:36 PM, Tangren, Gerald Vernon wrote:

> The difference is few people do natural history as it was done in the late
> 19th century and first half of the 20th century.
>
>
> Jerry
> East Wenatchee, WA
>
> On 2/9/15, 3:22 PM, "Kevin J. McGowan" wrote:
>
>> Wayne, glad you brought this up. State bird books from the 20th century,
>> even (especially?) old ones, have a ton of information that birders
>> should know about. Ornithologists in the 1950s were very concerned about
>> which forms of each species occurred in each state. Check those old books
>> out. You might be surprised.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Kevin J. McGowan
>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Kjm2@cornell.edu
>> 607-254-2452
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman
>> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 5:37 PM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>> A lot of states have "Birds of..." state books that address subspecies
>> to some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on
>> subspecies is included. I do not know of a compendium that has pulled
>> these together for the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.
>>
>> The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
>> comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings
>> of such an undertaking are now pretty shaky. A lot of papers have been
>> published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
>> subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
>> provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.
>>
>> In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a
>> lot of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for,
>> and even advisability of having, recognized subspecies.
>>
>> My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
>> classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
>> classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary
>> for discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.
>>
>> Currently I work in salmon conservation. Subspecies are not generally
>> recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
>> erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily
>> Significant Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability
>> salmon in geographic subsets of the species' ranges.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
>> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>>
>> Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?
>>
>> In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
>> particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?
>>
>> Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I
>> am looking for something more specific.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> Frank Haas fbhaas@ptd.net Churchtown, PA
>>
>> "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
>> www.FranklinHaas.com
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4284/9086 - Release Date: 02/09/15
>>
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>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


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Subject: Subspecies by state?
Date: Mon Feb 9 2015 19:39 pm
From: tangren AT wsu.edu
 
The difference is few people do natural history as it was done in the late
19th century and first half of the 20th century.


Jerry
East Wenatchee, WA

On 2/9/15, 3:22 PM, "Kevin J. McGowan" wrote:

>Wayne, glad you brought this up. State bird books from the 20th century,
>even (especially?) old ones, have a ton of information that birders
>should know about. Ornithologists in the 1950s were very concerned about
>which forms of each species occurred in each state. Check those old books
>out. You might be surprised.
>
>Kevin
>
>
>Kevin J. McGowan
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>Kjm2@cornell.edu
>607-254-2452
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Wayne Hoffman
>Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 5:37 PM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>
>Hi -
>
>A lot of states have "Birds of..." state books that address subspecies
>to some extent - generally the older the book the more detail on
>subspecies is included. I do not know of a compendium that has pulled
>these together for the whole country, since the 1957 AOU Checklist.
>
>The AOU Checklist committee has not addressed subspecies in any
>comprehensive way for over half a century, so the taxonomic underpinnings
>of such an undertaking are now pretty shaky. A lot of papers have been
>published since then lumping subspecies, and a lesser number naming new
>subspecies, but the status of all of these changes has to be considered
>provisional (or worse) in the absence of an overall treatment.
>
>In the 58 years since the 5th edition of the AOU Checklist appeared, a
>lot of discussion has taken place over the definition of, criteria for,
>and even advisability of having, recognized subspecies.
>
>My own personal opinion is that there is a lot wrong with the subspecies
>classifications in the 1957 checklist, and in Peters' multivolume
>classification, but that without subspecies we lose a needed vocabulary
>for discussing geographic variation, and also for conservation work.
>
>Currently I work in salmon conservation. Subspecies are not generally
>recognized in salmon, and in their absence the regulatory agencies have
>erected a substitute subdivision of species into "Evolutionarily
>Significant Units" (ESUs) to have a basis for assessing the viability
>salmon in geographic subsets of the species' ranges.
>
>Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
>[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas
>Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 7:08 AM
>To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Subspecies by state?
>
>Has anyone put together a "Subspecies by State" list?
>
>In other words, a list of which subspecies one would expect to find in a
>particular state. Which subspecies of Hose Wren, Warbling Vireo, etc.?
>
>Clement's lists the regions for subspecies, but they are very general. I
>am looking for something more specific.
>
>Frank
>
>
>Frank Haas fbhaas@ptd.net Churchtown, PA
>
> "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."
> www.FranklinHaas.com
>
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