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Updated on November 28, 2014, 7:20 pm

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28 Nov: @ 19:07:15  Buteo [Leith McKenzie]
26 Nov: @ 14:26:45 Re: DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Chris Corben]
26 Nov: @ 13:30:09  DNA Analysis -- contamination? [Noah Arthur]
25 Nov: @ 12:24:24  Gull for DNA Sequencing [Noah Arthur]
24 Nov: @ 12:38:53  Haemorhous finch ID [Kurt Radamaker]
24 Nov: @ 07:17:40 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Laurent Raty]
24 Nov: @ 04:32:37 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Vaughan, Robert]
23 Nov: @ 18:04:20 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Mike O'Keeffe]
21 Nov: @ 18:15:39 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Mike O'Keeffe]
21 Nov: @ 15:10:23 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle]
21 Nov: @ 08:08:29 Re: Skylark names [Robert O'Brien]
21 Nov: @ 04:23:25 Re: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Lee G R Evans]
21 Nov: @ 00:57:33  Skylark names [DPratt14]
20 Nov: @ 17:59:09  Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll [Peter Pyle]
19 Nov: @ 23:23:55  FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f [grlazaro]
19 Nov: @ 22:36:56 Re: Another Goldeneye [Tony leukering]
19 Nov: @ 21:48:17 Re: Another Goldeneye [Peter Pyle]
19 Nov: @ 19:18:07  Another Goldeneye [Brad Singer]
19 Nov: @ 15:05:39 Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Sibley]
19 Nov: @ 14:08:56 Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Peter Pyle]
19 Nov: @ 14:05:35 Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Noah Arthur]
19 Nov: @ 13:09:21 Re: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [Tony Leukering]
19 Nov: @ 13:09:21  Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR [David Irons]
19 Nov: @ 09:24:01 Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren]
18 Nov: @ 18:36:36 Re: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Joseph Morlan]
16 Nov: @ 23:22:34 Re: immature hawk [Reid Martin]
16 Nov: @ 23:21:05 Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons]
16 Nov: @ 23:17:56 Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Alvaro Jaramillo]
16 Nov: @ 22:49:55 Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Brian Sullivan]
16 Nov: @ 22:49:37 Re: immature hawk [Brian Sullivan]
16 Nov: @ 22:15:56 Re: immature hawk [Bill Pranty]
16 Nov: @ 21:24:24 Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [David Irons]
16 Nov: @ 20:47:41 Re: New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Bob & Carol Yutzy]
16 Nov: @ 19:12:59  New link to the Carpodacus Finch [Mary Beth Stowe]
16 Nov: @ 19:10:56 Re: Falcated Duck [Tony Leukering]
16 Nov: @ 18:42:34  Carpodacus Finch in South Texas [Mary Beth Stowe]
16 Nov: @ 17:50:30  Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose [Ian McLaren]
16 Nov: @ 15:39:44  Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose [David Irons]
16 Nov: @ 15:37:20  immature hawk [Hugh McGuinness]
16 Nov: @ 13:56:50 Re: Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL]
16 Nov: @ 11:56:05 Re: Falcated Duck [David Irons]
16 Nov: @ 11:23:38  Falcated Duck [BRUCE DEUEL]
08 Nov: @ 05:20:17  Forensic Image Analysis Techniques [Mike O'Keeffe]
03 Nov: @ 10:29:33 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Alvaro Jaramillo]
03 Nov: @ 05:47:18  Tern hybrids [Christopher Hill]
03 Nov: @ 03:24:52 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Tristan McKee]
03 Nov: @ 02:24:33 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Mark B Bartosik]
03 Nov: @ 01:42:51 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Alvaro Jaramillo]
03 Nov: @ 00:57:39 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside... [Tristan McKee]
03 Nov: @ 00:57:39 Re: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified? [Alvaro Jaramillo]



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Subject: Buteo
Date: Fri Nov 28 2014 19:07 pm
From: loinneilceol AT yahoo.com
 
This Hawk was observed on Horsefly Mountain, Oregon on July 16, 2014. Key ID points are: the extension of the wing tips is well short of the extension of the tail and the eyes are dark, the colors in the photo are accurate. Can this be identified to species with certainty? What about age, I think the tail suggests that it is an immature. Thanks. Leith
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
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“Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.”

Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
Date: Wed Nov 26 2014 14:26 pm
From: cjcorben AT hoarybat.com
 
Any sample of human DNA will be contaminated by all sorts of other
things. Most of the cells in our bodies are actually bacteria! It is not
a problem, as the genetics people have ways of dealing with such things.
Otherwise a cheek swab would be completely useless.

Cheers, Chris.

On 11/26/2014 1:03 PM, Noah Arthur wrote:
> Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
> I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
> touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
> this ruin the sample?
>
> Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>


--

Chris Corben.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: DNA Analysis -- contamination?
Date: Wed Nov 26 2014 13:30 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
Hi. So I'm probably going to try to get that gull poop sample DNA'ed. But
I've found out that I probably "contaminated" it with tiny insect parts by
touching it with a paper towel that had crumbled insect parts in it. Will
this ruin the sample?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Gull for DNA Sequencing
Date: Tue Nov 25 2014 12:24 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I'm looking for second opinions on this gull:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

I initially thought this bird was an unusual West Coast Herring (hybrid?)
type with sharp, spotty head streaking (which I see in small numbers each
winter), and collected poop for DNA sequencing. But now I'm wondering if
this is just a fairly typical Herring, in which case DNA sequencing would
be quite the waste of money...

What do you all think? Is there anything about this bird that looks wrong
for Herring, or am I freaking out over nothing again?

Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA/Lincoln, NE

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Haemorhous finch ID
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 12:38 pm
From: kurtrad AT mexicobirding.com
 
Dear Frontiers,

I have noticed a potential field mark to help separate female and juvenal
Cassin's Finch from Purple Finch.

Purple Finch is a review species in Arizona, so I have spent some time
reviewing photos of potential Cassin's and Purple.

After looking at hundreds of photos on the internet (although photo labels
on the internet are often wrong) and other sources, I have found that many
of the Cassin's show a yellow golden color in the check malar area that
contrasts with the white underparts, this yellow golden cheek is not
typically present on Purple. On Purple that area is normally white and does
not contrast with the face and underparts.

This yellow golden area is also present on the Texas bird:
http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz

I don't know if this mark will hold up over all ages and plumages of Purple
and Cassin's, but it seems to at least favor Cassin's in the many photos I
have reviewed.

I'd be curious to know if others have seen this and if it holds up.

Kurt Radamaker
Cave Creek, AZ

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 7:17 am
From: l.raty AT skynet.be
 
"Sky Lark" was one of a set of suggestions made in 1988
(http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.14... ) by a
BOURC-appointed subcommittee in a first attempt to "internationalize"
the English names of WP birds.
BOU (1992) followed, and listed the species as "Sky Lark" (international
English name) / "Skylark" ("older" English name); BOU (2006:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.14... ) still repeated this.
BOU (2013: http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/ibi.... ), however, switched to
IOC for international names, halting the use of the 1988 "British
international English names", and listed Alauda arvensis as "Skylark"
(BOU English name) / "Eurasian Skylark" (IOU international English name).

Thus the international name used by the BOU is now the name that was
used by the AOU, before the AOU followed a change that had been
triggered by the BOU...


On 11/21/2014 09:56 PM, Peter Pyle wrote:
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
> identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html

If you found it interesting, you may want to check this, too:
http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p010828&postcount
(Albeit there is now some suggestion that things may be still more
complex than this...)

Cheers,
Laurent -


On 11/24/2014 11:20 AM, Vaughan, Robert wrote:
> I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there). Could the US be lagging behind?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
> Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
>
> Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.
>
> The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much darker than European subspecies.
>
> Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
> including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and japonica:
> http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
>
> Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
> http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
> http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
> https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...
>
> Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:
>
> "p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."
>
> Cheerio,
>
> Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Mon Nov 24 2014 4:32 am
From: robert.vaughan AT kcl.ac.uk
 
I find the use of Sky Lark amusing and the current BOU list does have it as Skylark (and Woodlark before we go there).  Could the US be lagging behind?


-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle
Sent: 21 November 2014 20:57
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll

Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK
>has a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively
>long tail and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However,
>the most definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad
>white trailing edge to the secondaries and inner primaries and
>Oriental a rather diffuse sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary
>of juvenile ES early in the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed
>tip), a much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores),
>narrower breast
> streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the
>ground colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail
>coverts of ES). The ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and
>often, a weak rufescent outer web gives a distinct impression of a
>rufous wing-panel in flight. The relatively shorter tail and wings
>often give an impression of Woodlark in flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is
>on call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an
>equally
> loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from
>central & southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella
>across much of central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran
>and dulcivox from the Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian
>pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from further east. A complication
>comes with the little-studied JAPANESE SKYLARK (japonica), which forms
>a bridging gap between the two and does have some differences in
>vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right,
>breeding across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to
>Kazakhstan and Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make your records go much further and contribute towards the
>protection, knowledge and further education of our native wildlife -
>join up to BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...
>
>
>
>Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour
>Leader General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
>British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
>Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
>Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
>Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
>Western Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
>Items For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...
>
>Local Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
>Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
>Buckinghamshire Birding -
>http://buckinghamshirebirding....
>Birds of Tring Reservoirs -
>http://birdingtringreservoirs....
>Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Sun Nov 23 2014 18:04 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 18:15 pm
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 15:10 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Thank you Lee, and to the several who have responded off site.

The consensus is that it is subspecies pekinensis of Sky Lark, which
is much darker than European subspecies.

Photographs of the previous Kure specimen are here
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...
including one image side-by-side with a Sky Lark collected in the
Southeastern Hawaiian Islands, which may represent a mixture of
nominate arvensis and japonica:
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/bi...

Good discussions of the taxonomy (which appears to be a mess) and
identification of Sky Larks can be found at these sites:
http://www.birdforum.net/archive/index.php?t-216500.html
http://www.birdskorea.org/Bird...
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/def...

Regarding the Common Name, the AOU's 40th supplement has this:

"p. 488. Change the English name of Alauda arvensis from EURASIAN
SKYLARK to SKY LARK, following BOU (1992)."

Cheerio,

Peter

At 02:11 AM 11/21/2014, Lee G R Evans wrote:
>Peter
>
>Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374
>
>In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
>a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
>and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
>definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white
>trailing edge
>to the secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
>sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in
>the autumn).
>
>Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
>shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
>much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores),
>narrower breast
> streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
>eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
>colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail
>coverts of ES). The
>ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
>outer web gives a distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
>relatively shorter tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
>flight.
>
>In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
>call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
> loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.
>
>SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS
>
>As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
>clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae
>from central
>& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across much of
>central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox from the
>Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from
>further east. A complication comes with the little-studied JAPANESE
>SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and
>does have some
>differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.
>
>ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, breeding
>across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
>Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.
>
>Best wishes
>
>You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding
>
>Make your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
>knowledge and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
>BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
>http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...
>
>
>
>Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
>General Ornithology - _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_
>(http://www.uk400clubonline.co....)
>British Birding Association - _http://bbabirding.blogspot.co...._
>(http://bbabirding.blogspot.co....)
>Professional Guiding - Latest Tour Information -
>http://ultimateguidingbirdwise...
>Breaking News/Bird Information/Announcements -
>_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert...._
>(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert....)
>Rare Birds in Britain - http://rarebirdsinbritain.blog...
>Western Palearctic Bird News -
>http://rarebirdsinthewesternpa...
>Items For Sale or Exchange -
>http://leesmemorabiliaandcolle...
>
>Local Websites
>Bedfordshire Birding - http://bedfordshirebirding.blo...
>Hertfordshire Birding - http://hertfordshirebirding.bl...
>Buckinghamshire Birding - http://buckinghamshirebirding....
>Birds of Tring Reservoirs - http://birdingtringreservoirs....
>Amersham Birding - http://birdingamersham.blogspo...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Skylark names
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 8:08 am
From: baro AT pdx.edu
 
To the extent that abhorrance is an emotional state, i'll second that
emotion. May i suggest a more appropriate binomial? Skylark Lark. Bob
OBrien Carver OR.

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, DPratt14 wrote:
> Hi everyone:
>
> I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language. Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not "To a
Sky Lark". The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure the
English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination, especially
when there is no good purpose served.
>
> Doug Pratt
>
>
> "How terribly strange to be seventy." -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968
>
> H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
> Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
> 1205 Selwyn Lane
> Cary, NC 27511
>
> Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
> North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
> 11 West Jones Street
> Raleigh NC 27601
>
> Phone 919-379-1679
> Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)
>
> Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 4:23 am
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
 
Peter

Near on impossible to make any sensible judgement from this one image

http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374

In summary, for those that saw the bird in the field, EURASIAN SKYLARK has
a relatively longer primary extension than ORIENTAL, a relatively long tail
and generally more colour at the base of the bill. However, the most
definitive field characters are in flight, ES having a broad white trailing edge
to the secondaries and inner primaries and Oriental a rather diffuse
sandy-buff trailing edge (although be wary of juvenile ES early in the autumn).

Other supplementary features for identifying ORIENTAL include the bill
shape and size (more Crested Lark-like with a sharper, more pointed tip), a
much more marked pale loral area (in ES much darker on lores), narrower breast
streaking with little or none on the flanks, a rather more flaring
eye-stripe and more sullied underparts (a sort of buffish wash to the ground
colour rather than the much whiter belly, vent and undertail coverts of ES). The
ear-coverts have warmer rufous tinges to them and often, a weak rufescent
outer web gives a distinct impression of a rufous wing-panel in flight. The
relatively shorter tail and wings often give an impression of Woodlark in
flight.

In Israel, when in mixed flocks, the best way of separating the two is on
call - ES being loud and rolling, whilst Oriental prone to making an equally
loud but dry, penetrating, buzzing call, usually repeated 3 or 4 times.

SKYLARK SYSTEMATICS

As far as I know, EURASIAN SKYLARK is still considered to consist of 8
clinal variations, from arvensis and scotica in the west, sierrae from central
& southern Iberia, harterti from North Africa, cantarella across much of
central Europe, armenicus from eastern Turkey & Iran and dulcivox from the
Volga steppes in Russia, with Siberian pekinensis, kibarti & intermedia from
further east. A complication comes with the little-studied JAPANESE
SKYLARK (japonica), which forms a bridging gap between the two and does have some
differences in vocalisations but is currently retained in this grouping.

ORIENTAL SKYLARK is considered a 'good' species in its own right, breeding
across southern Asia east to the Phillipnes and north to Kazakhstan and
Tibet. Again, 8 clinal forms recognised as races.

Best wishes

You can now follow Lee on Twitter at LeeEvansBirding

Make your records go much further and contribute towards the protection,
knowledge and further education of our native wildlife - join up to
BIRDTRACK today - you know it makes sense -
http://blx1.bto.org/birdtrack/...



Lee G R Evans, Ornithological Consultant, Author, Bird Guide & Tour Leader
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Subject: Skylark names
Date: Fri Nov 21 2014 0:57 am
From: DPratt14 AT nc.rr.com
 
Hi everyone:

I abhor the neologism "Sky Lark", which flies in the face of long
tradition in the English language. Shelley wrote "To a Skylark" not
"To a Sky Lark". The ornithological practice of trying to reconfigure
the English language based on newly minted rules is an abomination,
especially when there is no good purpose served.

Doug Pratt


"How terribly strange to be seventy." -Paul Simon, "Old Friends" 1968

H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D.
Ornithologist, illustrator, musician
1205 Selwyn Lane
Cary, NC 27511

Research Curator of Birds, Emeritus
North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences
11 West Jones Street
Raleigh NC 27601

Phone 919-379-1679
Cell phone 919-270-0857 (for travel use only)

Website: http://www.hdouglaspratt.com/i...

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Subject: Possible Sky Lark on Kure Atoll
Date: Thu Nov 20 2014 17:59 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
Greetings all -

The bird in this image:
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/921-kure-sky-lark?id374

was observed on Kure Atoll, Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, 4-12
November 2014. This is the only photograph. It was identified as a
probable Sky Lark by the observers. We are interested in comments on
the species and subspecies identification.

There is one previous record of Sky Lark for Kure, of the Asian
subspecies pekinensis of the nominate (arvensis) group, from October
1963. The nominate European subspecies, or some mixture involving it,
has been introduced to the Southeastern Hawaiian Islands and has
occurred as a vagrant (presumably from the southeastern islands) to
French Frigate Shoals, about a third of the way out from Kauai to Kure.

I am also interested in the current thinking on species status and
for Oriental Sky Lark (A. gulgula) as well as common names within the
genus. Most, including the AOU, seem to regard Oriental Sky Lark as a
separate species but, if so, the AOU name "Sky Lark" for the
arvensis/japonica groups would seem to need a modifier.

Peter

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: FW:grlazaro@yahoo.es f
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 23:23 pm
From: grlazaro AT yahoo.es
 
http://www.sim-stroy.com/dvza/...



grlazaro@yahoo.es



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Subject: Another Goldeneye
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 22:36 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
Brad:

The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult, while the very black back indicates a male. I'm not sure what that all means for the bird's ID, but the intermediate scapular pattern may indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.

¡Muy interesante!

Tony

Tony Leukering
Largo, FL
http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/

> On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer wrote:
>
> Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> get some help on both the age and species of the following bird. We observed
> it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a first
> for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern California
> mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from us.
> It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while swimming.
> The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very difficult
> for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> Brad Singer
> Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Another Goldeneye
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 21:48 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
I agree that this is an adult and am wondering if
it might be an older female with some traits
(bill color, back color, visible white in the
scapulars, but not white in the face) showing
male-like characters due to senescence. I'd guess
that the same mechanisms resulting in male-like
plumage in these females (reduced levels of
estrogen that normally mask effects of
testosterone) could be acting on the bill color as well.

Overall the bill size and head shape strike me
more like a Barrow's Goldeneye, but I'd hesitate
to confirm this based on these photos, especially if it is indeed a female.

Peter

At 07:18 PM 11/19/2014, Tony leukering wrote:
>Brad:
>
>The very bright yellow eye indicates an adult,
>while the very black back indicates a male. I'm
>not sure what that all means for the bird's ID,
>but the intermediate scapular pattern may
>indicate mixed ancestry. The most puzzling
>aspect of the bird to me is the brown head at
>this season on a bird that ought to be an adult male.
>
>¡Muy interesante!
>
>Tony
>
>Tony Leukering
>Largo, FL
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>http://www.aba.org/photoquiz/
>
> > On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Brad Singer wrote:
> >
> > Since you are all on the subject of
> Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
> > get some help on both the age and species of
> the following bird. We observed
> > it with a flock of Common's and one adult
> male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a first
> > for the area and considered very rare for its
> location on a Southern California
> > mountain lake. We observed the bird in
> question as it was swimming away from us.
> > It caught our eye immediately with its
> extremely dark uppers. My field notes
> > indicate that it maintained a steep forehead
> profile at most times while swimming.
> > The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty
> although bill size is very difficult
> > for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
> > Brad Singer
> > Lake Arrowhead, Ca
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Another Goldeneye
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 19:18 pm
From: bcsinger AT gmail.com
 
Since you are all on the subject of Goldeneyes, I thought I would see if I could
get some help on both the age and species of the following bird. We observed
it with a flock of Common's and one adult male Barrow's. The Barrow's was a first
for the area and considered very rare for its location on a Southern California
mountain lake. We observed the bird in question as it was swimming away from us.
It caught our eye immediately with its extremely dark uppers. My field notes
indicate that it maintained a steep forehead profile at most times while swimming.
The bill, in person, appeared somewhat dainty although bill size is very difficult
for me to determine in the field. Sorry for the poor photos.
Brad Singer
Lake Arrowhead, Ca
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 15:05 pm
From: sibleyguides AT gmail.com
 
I agree with Peter that this bird looks more like a male based on shape and size (comparing the male and female in the same photo). When I see drake-plumaged female waterfowl they always seem to retain typical female size and shape, so I would lean strongly to male for this bird. That said, the plumage is odd, with paler brown head than normal for a male, and (as Dave Irons points out) a disconnect between the white on the face and absence of white on scapulars and flanks, which might all go together with the odd bill color.

For what its worth I have seen one Common Goldeneye years ago in Connecticut that had a yellow bill but in size and shape was more like an immature male.

Another thing to keep in mind is that its possible that all goldeneyes have yellow pigment in the bill, and what we are seeing is simply an absence of black, rather than an addition of yellow.

Good Birding,

David Sibley
Concord, MA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 14:08 pm
From: ppyle AT birdpop.org
 
The suspect bird appears to be a first-fall (HY) individual based on
the mixed brown (juvenile) and gray (formative) back, breast, and
flank feathers, in which case I'd rule out the senescent female
option. Most first-fall males lack black in the bill all together. So
it's either a first-fall male with an anomalous yellow bill or a
first-fall female with a white cheek patch. The bill seems large to
me, more male-like. In any case, it would be interesting to follow
this bird through the winter, if possible, to see how bill color and
plumage might change.

Peter

At 10:50 AM 11/19/2014, Tony Leukering wrote:
>Dave et al.:
>
>I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that
>sported orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such. Though
>I've assumed all were females, I've never seen one that exhibited
>any suggestion of male plumage such as this bird. I think that your
>hypothesis has merit.
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>Tony Leukering
>currently Mayville, MI
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...
>
>http://aba.org/photoquiz/
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Irons
>To: BIRDWG01
>Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
>
>
>Greetings All,
>
>Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common
>Goldeneye along
>the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an
>all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial
>spot below the
>eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link
>below includes
>two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common
>Goldeneyes, one of
>which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand
>bird is the
>one in question.
>
>http://www.birdfellow.com/phot...
>
>I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and
>can't find
>any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever
>seen such a
>bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in
>young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the
>more typical
>young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are
>speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally
>imbalanced in a way
>that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece
>he did back
>in 2010, Sibley
>(http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...)
>
>indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
>Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
>I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
>Dave Irons
>Portland, OR
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 14:05 pm
From: semirelicta AT gmail.com
 
I wonder if this bird is an intersex. That would explain the combination of
male and female charateristics...

Noah Arthur, Lincoln, NE

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 12:36 PM, David Irons wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye
> along the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and
> has an all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial
> spot below the eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the
> link below includes two photos of the bird, including one with two other
> Common Goldeneyes, one of which is a more typical young male. In the group
> photo, the lefthand bird is the one in question.
>
>
> http://www.birdfellow.com/phot...
>
> I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't
> find any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever
> seen such a bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white
> facial spot in young male Commons until they start transitioning and look
> like the more typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds.
> Some of us locally are speculating that this might be a female that is
> hormonally imbalanced in a way that is producing some male plumage
> characteristics. In a blog piece he did back in 2010, Sibley (
> http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...)
> indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
> Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.
>
> I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 13:09 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
Dave et al.:

I have seen a fair few (n~12) brown-headed Common Goldeneyes that sported orange/yellow-orange bills, and published on such. Though I've assumed all were females, I've never seen one that exhibited any suggestion of male plumage such as this bird. I think that your hypothesis has merit.

Tony




Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: David Irons
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Wed, Nov 19, 2014 1:38 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR


Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along
the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an
all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the
eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes
two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of
which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is the
one in question.

http://www.birdfellow.com/phot...

I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find
any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a
bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in
young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more typical
young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are
speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a way
that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did back
in 2010, Sibley (http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...)
indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common
Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.

I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Odd Common Goldeneye in Portland, OR
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 13:09 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Greetings All,

Yesterday, Jen Sanford photographed a rather interesting Common Goldeneye along the Columbia River near Portland. It looks mostly like a female and has an all-yellow/orange bill and yet it shows an emerging white facial spot below the eye, suggesting that it is a young male. The gallery at the link below includes two photos of the bird, including one with two other Common Goldeneyes, one of which is a more typical young male. In the group photo, the lefthand bird is the one in question.

http://www.birdfellow.com/phot...

I've never seen a male Common Goldeneye with an all-yellow bill and can't find any online photos or mention of such. Has anyone in this forum ever seen such a bird. Also, I don't normally see or notice the emerging white facial spot in young male Commons until they start transitioning and look like the more typical young male (front bird) in the photo of three birds. Some of us locally are speculating that this might be a female that is hormonally imbalanced in a way that is producing some male plumage characteristics. In a blog piece he did back in 2010, Sibley (http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...) indicates that all-yellow bills are "rare but regular" in female Common Goldeneyes, but makes no mention of this for male Commons of any age.

I will look forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this bird.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
Date: Wed Nov 19 2014 9:24 am
From: I.A.McLaren AT dal.ca
 
All:

I probably did get the Japanese reference from Joe Morlan's site and forgot that I had done so. Apologies.

It might also be noted that, contrary to the AOU fabilis and serrirostris split, Ruokonen and Aarvak (2011.
Ardea 99: 103111) link both Tundras with fabilis, based partly on mtDNA, but find middendorffii distinctive.

The cautions noted by Joe Morlan need to be heeded.

Ian McLaren
________________________________________
From: Joseph Morlan on behalf of Joseph Morlan
Sent: November-18-14 7:41 PM
To: Ian McLaren
Cc: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU; David Irons
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose

All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmor...

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/20...

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;


Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise.
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.)
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.)
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on.

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base.

It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.

From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure.


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two species; subspecies of each are trickier.
>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].?
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
Date: Tue Nov 18 2014 18:36 pm
From: jmorlan AT ccsf.edu
 
All,

I did not see a link to the online version of this paper. It can be
downloaded at...

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmor...

These biometrics were applied to a controversial Bean Goose at the Salton
Sea...

http://birdingfrontiers.com/20...

These close-up profile photos of the bill were analyzed by Mariko Parslow
with the following result...

----------------------------------------snip-------------------------------

My principle is that one Anser fabalis which appears outside of its general
distribution range should not carry any subspecies name attached. However,
purely for a morphological argument, I would accept this Salton-Sea Bean
Goose as a small Anser fabalis subsp. middendorffii.

This is only under provision that it is of wild origin, and that the
accompanying Anser albifrons belongs to the subspecies frontalis of wild
origin.

My reasons are as follows;


Facial characters
It is apparent that this bird does not belong to A. f. serrirostris, as, in
its 'field' or 'in-situ' appearance calculated from the photographs (the
range shows variation caused by the angle in various pictures), the
parameters of facial characters tell otherwise.
(1) It lacks the characteristic bulge of lower mandible; at the end of
nostril, the ratio between the thickest part of lower mandible in side view
/ total thickness of both mandible is 0.20 - 0.22. (Just OK for A.f.
serrirostris, but usually 0.22 - over 0.25, cannot recall maximum.)
(2) The ratio between the bill height at the base (both upper + lower) /
the skull height is 0.68 - 0.75. (In A.f. serrirostris the value is 0.65 or
lower.)
(3) The ratio between the upper bill length in side view / the skull length
in side view is some 1.18 - 1.25. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.00 or
lower.)
(4) The ratio between upper bill length in side view / the upper bill depth
at base in side view is 2.00 - 2.40. (In A.f. serrirostris it is 1.85 or
lower.)
This combination matches only those of A. f. middendorffii, so far as I
know of from living individuals.

These ratio are calculated from the side view in the field, and not of the
usual biological measurement, e.g. 'bill length', 'skull height', and so
on.

The combination (2)-(4) gives the middendorffii its characteristic
stream-line forehead, not found in A.f. fabalis, its Taiga counterpart in
the western Palaearctic. Some large male A.f. fabalis do resemble A.f.
middendorffii, as in the "Falkirk bird" referred to on the website of CA
bird. However, they never, ever have total combination of these field
characters. Namely, the typical A.f. fabalis has characteristic drop in its
forehead, as their bill is comparatively thinner at base.

It is rather a large A.f. rossicus male which resembles middendorffii in
its shape of a streamlined forehead. I have seen some individuals of A.f.
rossicus in Pannonian population showing similar characters in the field.
Several skins, preserved and marked as both Scandinavian and Eastern
European origins and of unknown subspecies, in the relevant collections in
Europe, also shows similar character combination. One of them was an
authentic material of so called A.f. johansennii, in Budapest, the epithet
which I do not believe exists as a living population. However, judging from
the skins only, in these individuals, the value for (3) tends to be 0.65 -
0.90 rarely 1.00, and that for (4) lower than 1.85.

Size of the bird
Only one concern about this bird being A.f. middendorffii is its small
size. For the subspecies, this bird is undersized, being only slightly
larger than A. albifrons frontalis in the background. But considering that
it is a female whereas the A. albifrons is a male (I regret I have no way
to explain why, but from its posture, comparatively short neck compared to
body length and round lower belly, I am certain, and so am I for the
White-fronted), its size appears just acceptable.

From its behaviour
The fact that it is with A. albifrons subsp. frontalis would mean, provided
that they also are of wild origins. So it is illogical to assume that this
individual originated from Scandinavia, and this excludes the possibility
of it being an A.f. fabalis of unusual facial structure.


Finally, I add a couple of irrelevant notes regarding distinction between
A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii, which may be of interest for the
contributor(s) of the Salton bird web page. Please convey if you think
appropriate.

Among the facial character (ratio) described as above, the combination of
(1) and (2) would A.f. serrirostris a characteristic drop in its forehead,
and the bill would give an impression that it were curved 'round'
underneath (like an Avocet although less exaggerated).
Their calls and tone of the voice are completely different; the
voice is much deeper and with shorter syllables in A.f. middendorffii's
than that of A.f. serrirostris, to the extent never heard from any other
subspecies of Bean Geese. The voice of A.f. serrirostris is also deeper
than those of two western subspecies, but the syllables are similar. It
appears as if A.f. serrirostris and A.f. middendorffii speak in different
languages. A short call from one single bird may not be enough for
distinction, but if heard from several individuals, it would be impossible
to make a mistake about their subspecies.

--------------------------------------snip--------------------------------


On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:31:31 +0000, Ian McLaren wrote:

>All:?
>
>
>I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two species; subspecies of each are trickier.
>
>
>Cheers, Ian McLaren
>
>
>
>Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].?
>
>Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA
"It turns out we're very good at not seeing things" - Jack Hitt

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: immature hawk
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 23:22 pm
From: upupa AT airmail.net
 
Dear All,
Further to the points mentioned by Bill and Brian, this bird has only four emarginated primaries, limiting the choice in North America to Swainson's, Broad-winged, and White-tailed). Other North American buteos have five emarginated primaries.
Martin

---
Martin Reid
San Antonio
www.martinreid.com





On Nov 16, 2014, at Nov 16, 2:38 PM, Hugh McGuinness wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
>
> --
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 23:21 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Having seen some additional photos of this bird, there is no doubt that it's a Cassin's Finch, for all the reasons suggested by others. 

Dave Irons

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 20:35:17 -0800
> From: chucao@COASTSIDE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> All,
>
> The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
> primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
> noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
> perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
> primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
>
> While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
> undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
> Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
> undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
> form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
> juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
> streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
> with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
> olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
> eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
> being a Cassin's Finch.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> > From: boby@C-ZONE.NET
> > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter
> > somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined
> > lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the
> > lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch
> > which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
> >
> > Bob Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> >
> >
> > On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's
> > > a tiny
> > > URL:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hope it works!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mary Beth Stowe
> > >
> > > McAllen, TX
> > >
> > > miriameaglemon.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Bob & Carol Yutzy
> > Shasta, CA
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 23:17 pm
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
All,

The bill structure (length and depth), as well as those super long
primaries are all Cassin's to me. Similarly the plumage point that have been
noted, as well as the good eyering and the narrowly streaked back are
perfect for Cassin's. But if I had to isolate one feature, the wings. Those
primaries are too long to be on a Purple Finch in my opinion.

Regards,

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:58 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch

While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the
undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year
Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the
undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western
form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even
juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier
streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity
with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less
olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively
eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this
being a Cassin's Finch.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby@C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hello all,
>
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter
> somewhat whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined
> lower section of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the
> lower portion better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch
> which we see pretty often in our neck of the woods.
>
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
>
>
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's
> > a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
>
> --
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8578 - Release Date: 11/15/14

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 22:49 pm
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Hi Mary Beth et al.

I'm always surprised as how hard some of these out of ranch Purple/Cassin's
Finches can be. This bird seems to fit Cassin's better, with a bold
eyering, fine streaking continuing through the undertail coverts, and
especially the long, rather pointed bill. Cassin's bills vary greatly, from
being relatively shallow-based to deep-based like this bird--but all are
longer and less 'conical' than typical Purple Finches. I think Cassin's
wing projection averages longer, but that might not be a solid character.
Not sure why it would be based on the life history of these two species (or
maybe three species). Eastern Purple Finch is so different in many respects
from Pacific Purple Finch (plumage, voice, and behavior) that I can't
believe we're not looking at species status for those in the coming years.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:

> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>
>
> Hope it works!
>
>
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: immature hawk
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 22:49 pm
From: heraldpetrel AT gmail.com
 
Hi All

I agree with Bill that this bird is a typical light-morph juvenile
Swainson's. Swainson's have slightly different primary, secondary, and tail
feather patterns that juvenile Short-tailed. The shape differences Bill
points out are fairly obvious, with Swainson's being much longer, and
narrower-winged than juvenile Short-tailed.

Thanks

Brian

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bill Pranty wrote:

> Good evening,
>
> This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and
> narrow; Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen
> a juvenile Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts.
> Normally, the underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy
> with very little streaking on the breast.
>
> Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are
> found here:
>
>
> http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BDBRAIN&T=0O=AX~1FFD79D96835E3EA&P'146
>
> (click on the last two images).
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill Pranty
> Bayonet Point, Florida
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> > From: hdmcguinness@GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> > Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> > aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> > separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> > is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally,
> if I
> > am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be
> contacted
> > to rectify the record?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
> >
> > --
> > Hugh McGuinness
> > Washington, D.C.
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>



--
==========

*Brian L. SullivaneBird Project Leader *
www.ebird.org

*Photo Editor*
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/B...
-------------------------------

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: immature hawk
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 22:15 pm
From: billpranty AT hotmail.com
 
Good evening,

This doesn't look like a Short-tailed to me. The wings are too long and narrow; Short-taileds have a very Red-tailed profile. Also, I've never seen a juvenile Short-tailed with such extensive streaking on the underparts. Normally, the underparts, including the underwing coverts, are quite buffy with very little streaking on the breast.

Photos of two light-morph juveniles from St. Petersburg, 2 Sep 2011, are found here:

http://listserv.admin.usf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind1109&L=BRDBRAIN&T=0&O=A&X=7E1FFD79D96835E3EA&P=27146

(click on the last two images).


Best regards,

Bill Pranty
Bayonet Point, Florida



> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:38:18 -0500
> From: hdmcguinness@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] immature hawk
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hi All,
>
> I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
> Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
> aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
> separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
> is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
> am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
> to rectify the record?
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051
>
> --
> Hugh McGuinness
> Washington, D.C.
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 21:24 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
While I generally agree with Bob Yutzy's take on this bird, streaking on the undertail coverts doesn't necessarily eliminate Purple Finch. Hatch-year Purple Finches, in particular juveniles, often show streaking on the undertail coverts. I looked at my own images of HY Purple Finches (western form) to double check the streaking on the underparts with this bird. Even juvenile Western Purple Finches (ssp. californicus) have broader blurrier streaking on the underparts than this bird. I don't have much familiarity with the HY birds of the nominate ssp. purpureus, which tends to be less olive above and more streaked on the back. I would want to positively eliminate the possibility of a young purpureus before going all in on this being a Cassin's Finch.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:03:11 -0800
> From: boby@C-ZONE.NET
> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] New link to the Carpodacus Finch
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hello all,
>
> The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat
> whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section
> of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion
> better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see
> pretty often in our neck of the woods.
>
> Bob Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
>
>
> On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> > My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> > URL:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
> >
> >
> >
> > Hope it works!
> >
> >
> >
> > Mary Beth Stowe
> >
> > McAllen, TX
> >
> > miriameaglemon.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
> >
>
> --
> Bob & Carol Yutzy
> Shasta, CA
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 20:47 pm
From: boby AT c-zone.net
 
Hello all,

The eyering, pointy bill, streaked undertail coverts, brighter somewhat
whitish finely streaked breast, the somewhat ill defined lower section
of the malar marks (Purple's are clearly defined on the lower portion
better defining the throat), all point to Cassin's Finch which we see
pretty often in our neck of the woods.

Bob Yutzy
Shasta, CA


On 11/16/2014 4:33 PM, Mary Beth Stowe wrote:
> My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
> URL:
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz
>
>
>
> Hope it works!
>
>
>
> Mary Beth Stowe
>
> McAllen, TX
>
> miriameaglemon.com
>
>
>
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

--
Bob & Carol Yutzy
Shasta, CA


Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: New link to the Carpodacus Finch
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 19:12 pm
From: mbstowe AT miriameaglemon.com
 
My original link is apparently breaking up for some folks, so here's a tiny
URL:



http://tinyurl.com/l4u6duz



Hope it works!



Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Falcated Duck
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 19:10 pm
From: greatgrayowl AT aol.com
 
 Bruce et al.:

Certainly, the dark collar on a white foreneck seems bang on for FADU and the bill shape seems odd for most New World ducks, except Northern Pintail (NOPI). Having no experience with Falcated Duck (FADU), I've had to browse online photos to get any feel for what a alternate-plumaged male might look like. In my admittedly short search, I didn't find many such pictures, but one, I thought, was illustrative relative to this case:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

The male in the pic above shares quite a few features with Colusa NWR bird, particularly the flanks and the brown scaps with pale markings.

I found another picture that is relevant to this bird, a molting male Gadwall (GADW):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...

While the Colusa bird might be a hybrid, I don't see the GADW and NOPI combo producing a bird with such a white tail. I think that the Colusa bird looks enough like a FADU that if it is a hybrid, I would vote for FADU x GADW.

Regardless, I hope that the bird sticks and folks get more pix of it as it goes through its molt, as noted by Bruce.

Enjoy,

Tony



Tony Leukering
currently Mayville, MI

http://www.flickr.com/photos/t...

http://aba.org/photoquiz/





-----Original Message-----
From: BRUCE DEUEL
To: BIRDWG01
Sent: Sun, Nov 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck


Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts. Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there. If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel@WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Carpodacus Finch in South Texas
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 18:42 pm
From: mbstowe AT miriameaglemon.com
 
Hi, all!



A female Carpodacus showed up at Resaca de la Palma State Park this morning
that I just assumed was a Purple (pretty rare for down here), so I started
shooting pictures before the thing bolted into the bushes, but one of my
friends advised me not to rule out Cassin's (which would be even rarer, I
would think, but there IS a past record for the Valley), so after looking at
my pictures, I'm wondering if that might be the case. At first I thought
the facial pattern was too strong and that the breast streaking was too
heavy, but points for Cassin's include:



Long, straight-culmened bill

Appearance of an eye ring

More narrow streaking that appears to extend all the way to the undertail
covers (although this could be an optical illusion based on wet feathers)

Contrasting streaking on the back.



Photos are here, and feedback is welcome!



http://miriameaglemon.com/phot...
%20de%20la%20Palma%20SP.html



MB



Mary Beth Stowe

McAllen, TX

miriameaglemon.com




Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Tundra vs Taiga Bean-Goose
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 17:50 pm
From: I.A.McLaren AT dal.ca
 
All:?


I found the following (on-line) was useful in assessing the Tundra Bean-Goose that turned up last autumn in Nova Scotia. Separating the two species from their Asian range should be easy. Use their tabulation of bill measurements of the to produce rations +/- 95% limits, or whatever. Might need a statistician to help getting legitimate limits with ratios, but can do approximation of limits close enough.. Then use these ratios to to see which relative measurements of your goose's bill in good profile give a match. As I remember, the ratios of some bill measurements differ quite a bit between the two species; subspecies of each are trickier.


Cheers, Ian McLaren



Kurechi, Masayuki, Yoshio Yokota, and Mariko Otsu 1983. Notes on the Field Identification of Anser fabalis serrirostris and A. f. middendorfi. Tori 32:95-106. [In Japanese with English tables and figure captions].?

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Subject: Gallery of photos of the Oregon Tundra Bean-Goose
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 15:39 pm
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Greetings all,

While the general consensus has been that the Bean-Goose currently being seen at Nestucca Bay NWR, (Oregon) is a Tundra, some of us have privately wondered about the apparent bill length of this bird. This past Friday I watched the goose for over an hour at various distances and angles and took the photos that appear in the gallery at the link below. The bill generally appeared pretty deep at the base, but when in perfect or near-perfect profile it seemed a bit longer and flatter sloped than what might be typical for Tundra Bean-Goose. It does show a conspicuous grin patch, as seen in several of the images and the orange-yellow on the bill is restricted to a subterminal band that barely reaches the outer edge of the nares (best fits Tundra). The shape of the coverts and scapulars on this bird (broad and square-ended) suggest that it is an after hatch-year bird. Given that my prior experience with bean-geese is zero, I'd like to hear opinions about this bird from folks who have familiarity with both Tundra (particularly the more easterly populations) and Taiga Bean-Geese and how one goes about separating birds with bill lengths that might be described as intermediate.

http://www.birdfellow.com/phot...

Thanks in advance for thoughts about this bird,

Dave Irons
Portland, OR



Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: immature hawk
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 15:37 pm
From: hdmcguinness AT gmail.com
 
Hi All,

I came upon this record of an immature Swainson's Hawk on ebird from
Naples, FL. To me the bird appears to be an imm Short-tailed Hawk, but
aside from gizz and structure, I realized I am not really sure how to
separate immatures of the two. So I am wondering if readers here agree it
is a Short-tailed Hawk, and on what basis can we make the ID. Finally, if I
am right and since it has been confirmed at e-bird, who should be contacted
to rectify the record?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20530051

--
Hugh McGuinness
Washington, D.C.

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Falcated Duck
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 13:56 pm
From: bdeuel AT wildblue.net
 
Hybrid with Gadwall seems to make the most sense, because of additional
black at the rear and brownish tones to back and wing coverts. Pintail
might explain the extra white on the chest, but I don't know what an
eclipse Falcated would show there. If it stays around and continues its
molt, we may learn more.

Cheers,
Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:07 AM, David Irons wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section
> of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird
> suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many
> Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of
> which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse
> Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the
> appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.
>
> Dave Irons
> Portland, OR
>
> > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> > From: bdeuel@WILDBLUE.NET
> > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> >
> > Hi, all.
> > Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> > Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
> >
> > Bruce Deuel
> > Red Bluff, CA
> >
> > Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Falcated Duck
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 11:56 am
From: llsdirons AT msn.com
 
Bruce,

Do you have a theory about the parentage of this bird? The lower section of white on the breast seems too extensive, but otherwise this bird suggests a male Falcated coming out of alternate/eclipse plumage. Many Asian dabbling duck species molt later than N.A. counterparts (some of which are still going through PA molt), but I wouldn't expect a eclipse Falcated to have more white on the breast. I don't have answers, but the appearance of this bird certainly raises some questions.

Dave Irons
Portland, OR

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 08:31:35 -0800
> From: bdeuel@WILDBLUE.NET
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Falcated Duck
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
>
> Hi, all.
> Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
> Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
> Thoughts?
>
> http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527
>
> Bruce Deuel
> Red Bluff, CA
>
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archives/birdwg01.html



Subject: Falcated Duck
Date: Sun Nov 16 2014 11:23 am
From: bdeuel AT wildblue.net
 
Hi, all.
Here is a link to photos posted in an eBird checklist purporting to be a
Falcated Duck. I suspect it is not a pure example of this species.
Thoughts?

http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S20446527

Bruce Deuel
Red Bluff, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Forensic Image Analysis Techniques
Date: Sat Nov 8 2014 5:20 am
From: okeeffeml AT eircom.net
 
 

All,



Member of this list may find some recent postings of interest.



Forensic Analysis of Images

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...





Recovering Detail from Images

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...





Birds and Light

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...

http://birdingimagequalitytool...



Regards



Mike O’Keeffe

Ireland



http://birdingimagequalitytool...










Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 10:29 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Tristan

With this in mind, I do think that the default in this genus is for
colored (not black) bills. Black in the bills seems to be a derived feature
within the genus. Weirdly enough though black in bills shows up in Elegants,
as well as southern Cayennes (well away from Sandwich genes) yet it does not
do so in Royal.

Regards,

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Tristan McKee
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:48 AM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is
usually miside...

Great thread! The unlocking of traits unexpressed in pure populations
through hybridization is an amazing subject, distressing though it may be
from an identification perspective. The most common examples I come across
are of unlocked ancestral traits; I would be interested in learning of other
pathways if they have been studied. I am beginning to wonder if ancestral
crested terns had more extravagant crests. Intuitively, most of us probably
think of sexual selection leading to a larger ornament over time, but
crested terns have been around for a long time (at least four million
years), plenty long enough for an ornament to evolutionarily "go out of
style".

MtDNA evidence from 2005 indicates that Elegant and Sandwich are indeed
sister species, but as you can see, Royal is also extremely closely related:

file:///C:/Users/THISON~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Bridge%2520et%2520al%25202005%2
520.pdf

Genetic divergences:

Sandwich - Elegant: 1.0%
Sandwich - Royal: 2.6%

I'm treading on thin ice here, but I also suspect that it is not necessarily
the most closely-related species that hybridize the most often.
Isolating mechanisms can break down if they lose their relevance through
isolation of populations in space or time. Then, when secondary contacts
occurs, all bets are off! Consider Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls, which
according to current thinking are about as distantly-related as large
white-headed gulls can get, yet they have the most impressive hybrid zone.

It is unclear whether the black cap common to jaegers and terns is an
ancestral feature or the result of convergent evolution. Either way, it is
clearly an important feature for these birds reproductively, since it
generally occurs in breeding adults. It is easy to see how an ornament like
a crest could evolve or disappear relatively rapidly due to sexual
selection. Perhaps Elegant is the only tern retaining a lengthy crest, but
because the other species lost it recently, it can still be expressed in
hybrids. Much speculation, yes, but none of it harder to swallow than
Elegants making it to Europe...

PS. in my previous post, I only meant to refer to the older birds on the
surfbirds site as not fitting my expectations of Elegant; the juveniles look
fine for Elegant, although I wouldn't swear that is what they are.

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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Subject: Tern hybrids
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 5:47 am
From: Chill AT coastal.edu
 
As it happens, this week I've been reading my way through "Terns" by David Cabot and Ian Nisbet.  The book has a focus on terns of Britain and Ireland, but there's an awful lot in there, including about "our" terns, as Ian Nisbet probably knows more about terns than anyone who ever lived, and he did decades of fieldwork in Massachusetts.  Too bad I have not yet gotten his North American seabirds book, but here's a bit on hybridisation: (note that he uses recent genetic studies to split out Cabot's Tern (North American Sandwich plus Cayenne) from Sandwich, which he limits to old world Sandwich terns):

"Hybridisation has been recorded most frequently between roseate and common terns, but cases have also been reported involving roseate x arctic, roseate x Forster's, Arctic x common, lesser crested x Sandwich, Cabots x elegant, fairy x little, and white-winged x black terns."

I know that common x roseate hybrids are fertile and backcrosses have been documented.

Royal x Cabots may be beyond the scope of the book, since both are N. Am. species, or maybe despite nesting cheek to jowl, they haven't yet been documented? I guess I need to get that other book and report back.

C

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 3:24 am
From: atmckee AT gmail.com
 
Great thread! The unlocking of traits unexpressed in pure populations
through hybridization is an amazing subject, distressing though it may be
from an identification perspective. The most common examples I come across
are of unlocked ancestral traits; I would be interested in learning of
other pathways if they have been studied. I am beginning to wonder if
ancestral crested terns had more extravagant crests. Intuitively, most of
us probably think of sexual selection leading to a larger ornament over
time, but crested terns have been around for a long time (at least four
million years), plenty long enough for an ornament to evolutionarily "go
out of style".

MtDNA evidence from 2005 indicates that Elegant and Sandwich are indeed
sister species, but as you can see, Royal is also extremely closely related:

file:///C:/Users/THISON~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Bridge%2520et%2520al%25202005%2520.pdf

Genetic divergences:

Sandwich - Elegant: 1.0%
Sandwich - Royal: 2.6%

I'm treading on thin ice here, but I also suspect that it is not
necessarily the most closely-related species that hybridize the most often.
Isolating mechanisms can break down if they lose their relevance through
isolation of populations in space or time. Then, when secondary contacts
occurs, all bets are off! Consider Glaucous-winged and Western Gulls, which
according to current thinking are about as distantly-related as large
white-headed gulls can get, yet they have the most impressive hybrid zone.

It is unclear whether the black cap common to jaegers and terns is an
ancestral feature or the result of convergent evolution. Either way, it is
clearly an important feature for these birds reproductively, since it
generally occurs in breeding adults. It is easy to see how an ornament like
a crest could evolve or disappear relatively rapidly due to sexual
selection. Perhaps Elegant is the only tern retaining a lengthy crest, but
because the other species lost it recently, it can still be expressed in
hybrids. Much speculation, yes, but none of it harder to swallow than
Elegants making it to Europe...

PS. in my previous post, I only meant to refer to the older birds on the
surfbirds site as not fitting my expectations of Elegant; the juveniles
look fine for Elegant, although I wouldn't swear that is what they are.

Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...



Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 2:24 am
From: MBB22222 AT aol.com
 
Tristan;

Unfortunately it is getting quite late so I will limit my reply to your one
remark today to make one thing straight and avoid missunderstanding.
Nowhere in my post I said that SATA X ROYT hybrid would be unlikely infertile.
I, you, all of us, simply do not know. There are none known hybrids. To go
even further we do not know if such hybrid would survive the embryonic
stage. I used word unlikely to F2 generation (perhaps did that not precisely,
sorry for that) that will look like ELTE after backcross between F1 parent
(supposedly looking like ROYT) with other parent from one of these two
species (it was not said which one is considered, perhaps another F1, and that
is unlikely to happen in real life even if possible in theory). I noticed
that often we like to use extremes; from an old idea that if offspring is
fertile both parents must belong to one species to stretching that
everything can inbreed successfully. It seems that evolutionary process is somewhere
between. Well we still do not know definition of what really species is
and answers to this question are different, depends on who you ask.

BTW, yellow bill, and legs, in juvenile SATE are quite common. At least
here in Texas. But color is changing fast. .

And thanks for interesting info and thoughts.

Cheers,

Mark



In a message dated 11/3/2014 12:05:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,
atmckee@GMAIL.COM writes:

When it comes to outrageous vagrants, I like things that sound crazy, and I
like the way Alvaro is thinking. The Texas bird does not look right,
especially the bill shape. Nearly all the photos of vagrants on the
following site give me the same gut feeling; the only two vagrants that fit
my expectations of Elegant are the Argentina and Arizona birds:

http://www.surfbirds.com/gallery/search2.php?species=Eegant%20Tern

Here is some relevant older discussion about the species' movements:

http://www.oocities.org/steve_...

The extreme rarity of this species inland in California is discussed; I
would only note that these birds have no problem heading 20-30 miles
offshore to forage, so they are not so strongly opposed to deep waters as,
say, Pelagic Cormorants and Ring-billed Gulls here.

Also relevant:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...

The thing that is holding me up most is understanding how low it takes for
Elegant Terns to reach full adult bill shape. Many of these birds have
bills that look fine for juvenile Elegants, but they are all older birds.
Looking through Elegants this summer, I developed an instinctive
dichotomous filter: short-billed birds had juvenal plumage; birds with
typical Elegant bill shape did not; my search image was for anything that
did not fall into either category (i.e., a potential Lesser Crested or
Cayenne Tern). Needless to say, this activity did not result in many
adrenalin rushes...

I could find no reference to Royal x Sandwich hybrids but agree that they
would likely be lost in the extremely complicated mix of crested tern
populations around the world. I did see in BNA that SE South American and W
African Royals are smaller, more slender, and thinner-billed, with a duller
bill color, perhaps making hybridization with Sandwich Terns in these areas
a bit less "crazy".

Regarding Mark's query that just came in as I was writing, that is not at
all how I interpreted Alvaro's suggestion. We are only looking at a handful
of traits. It is easy to imagine that F1 hybrids could be phenotypically
similar to Royal with regards to those few traits. Furthermore, the
assumption that bird hybrids are unlikely to be fertile simply does not
reflect reality. Interspecific gene flow is an adaptive advantage for many
bird species, and we need to depart from our notions of hybridization that
are based on animal husbandry.


Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...


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Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 1:42 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Mark, 



Ducks are not terns, terns are likely more like gulls. So I appreciate what you are saying about intermediacy in characters. But hybrid ducks often pop out traits not present in either parent, such as Baikal Teal like head patterns. It all depends on the genetics of the characters. They can be on/off type states, as in Golden-winged x Blue-winged hybrids, with mixed characters to make things interesting. But they can be situations where a character is present in the genes, but never expressed in pure populations. Yet these can be unlocked by hybrid combinations, as in the ducks. I am no geneticist (not even close), just trying to keep an open mind, as all sorts of things are possible. I would like some empirical data on what hybrids look like between Royal x Sandwich, I think this info would be important. But it is interesting that you know of no records of hybrids, which seems odd as in gulls hybrids between much less closely related species are found. The reason may be that not enough folks are looking at terns carefully, and that hybrids may be very difficult to spot? Not sure.



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: MBB22222@aol.com [mailto:MBB22222@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 8:54 PM
To: chucao@coastside.net; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...



I am not aware of any record of ROYT X SATE attempted or successful breeding. Would love to know if there was any. It seems that you suggest a possibility that (in simplified form) all ROYT genes are dominant and SATE genes are recessive so they will produce F1 as ROYT phenotype (plumage traits in this case). Next step , assuming that offspring is fertile (ROYT and SATE are not close related; SATE and ELTE are) they will produce ELTE phenotype. Sort of unlikely. We will deal rather with combination of mixed traits; some from ROYT some from SATE. Again how they could produce a new trait, for example a long crest, that both species lack?



Cheers,



Mark



In a message dated 11/2/2014 10:06:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, chucao@coastside.net writes:

Not sure, but the question of what they look like still remains. Are there any known hybrids between the two? Are there known hybrid pairs in colonies? Maybe F1 birds don’t look very distinctive, maybe rather Royal Tern like and they go undetected, and these are the F2 birds that we key in on? Throwing out ideas as food for discussion. We can dance around the logic of what they should look like, but the question is do we know what they look like – are there known hybrids?

On the other hand, Elegant Tern is highly migratory, nearly as much as Franklin’s Gull, and we know they wind up all over the place so maybe it goes without saying that Elegant Tern should wind up all over the place too? Their population is much less than Franklin’s Gull, and they do not have a migration pattern that crosses from the Atlantic watershed to the Pacific, but still they do go a long distance, and getting lost and messed up there in the narrow parts of Central America certainly seems possible. Apparently European breeding Red-necked Phalaropes cross to the Pacific about here, so why not?



Alvaro



Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@alvarosadventures.com

www.alvarosadventures.com



From: MBB22222@aol.com [mailto:MBB22222@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:58 PM
To: chucao@COASTSIDE.NET ; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...



Alvaro,



I fully agree with the bill case (droop; in fact I was thinking about similar question) but have a problem with ROYT X SATE - what about long crest? BTW I was thinking about posting the examples of some tern winter heads to find out if somebody recorded even more white ones, molting all black feathers into all white. At this moment I have a GBTE with practically all white head and SATE with only very few black feathers. Why hybrids would be so small, ELTE size? Have ELTE face pattern? Etc.



Cheers,



Mark



In a message dated 11/2/2014 9:41:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, chucao@COASTSIDE.NET writes:

All

I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right.

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?

ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast (accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states.

I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the
shore. The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks
on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a needle in a haystack.

True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my
problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person
found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again?

Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits of its species.

1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange).

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than ROYT

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future.

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

And just a few other photos.
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side.
Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records along the Pacific shore).

http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...

Cheers,

Mark
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Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually miside...
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 0:57 am
From: atmckee AT gmail.com
 
When it comes to outrageous vagrants, I like things that sound crazy, and I
like the way Alvaro is thinking. The Texas bird does not look right,
especially the bill shape. Nearly all the photos of vagrants on the
following site give me the same gut feeling; the only two vagrants that fit
my expectations of Elegant are the Argentina and Arizona birds:

http://www.surfbirds.com/gallery/search2.php?species=Eegant%20Tern

Here is some relevant older discussion about the species' movements:

http://www.oocities.org/steve_...

The extreme rarity of this species inland in California is discussed; I
would only note that these birds have no problem heading 20-30 miles
offshore to forage, so they are not so strongly opposed to deep waters as,
say, Pelagic Cormorants and Ring-billed Gulls here.

Also relevant:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/20...

The thing that is holding me up most is understanding how low it takes for
Elegant Terns to reach full adult bill shape. Many of these birds have
bills that look fine for juvenile Elegants, but they are all older birds.
Looking through Elegants this summer, I developed an instinctive
dichotomous filter: short-billed birds had juvenal plumage; birds with
typical Elegant bill shape did not; my search image was for anything that
did not fall into either category (i.e., a potential Lesser Crested or
Cayenne Tern). Needless to say, this activity did not result in many
adrenalin rushes...

I could find no reference to Royal x Sandwich hybrids but agree that they
would likely be lost in the extremely complicated mix of crested tern
populations around the world. I did see in BNA that SE South American and W
African Royals are smaller, more slender, and thinner-billed, with a duller
bill color, perhaps making hybridization with Sandwich Terns in these areas
a bit less "crazy".

Regarding Mark's query that just came in as I was writing, that is not at
all how I interpreted Alvaro's suggestion. We are only looking at a handful
of traits. It is easy to imagine that F1 hybrids could be phenotypically
similar to Royal with regards to those few traits. Furthermore, the
assumption that bird hybrids are unlikely to be fertile simply does not
reflect reality. Interspecific gene flow is an adaptive advantage for many
bird species, and we need to depart from our notions of hybridization that
are based on animal husbandry.


Tristan McKee
Arcata, CA

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Subject: Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
Date: Mon Nov 3 2014 0:57 am
From: chucao AT coastside.net
 
Dan et al.

That is a cool looking bird, looks pretty similar to a South American Cayenne Tern to me, especially with that thick bill and the dark base around the nostril. That doesn't mean it isn't a hybrid of course.

Here are some South American Cayenne's from Brazil, the southern population is the one that tends to be thick billed.
http://www.wikiaves.com.br/301...

cheers,

Alvaro

Alvaro Jaramillo
alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
www.alvarosadventures.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Irizarry
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 8:31 PM
To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?

I'll have to find the pictures but back in 02 an elegant tern male mated with a female Sandwich tern (copulation was caught in a photo by Lyn Atherton I, I believe. Its offspring looked very much like a Cayenne Tern. I think photos were recently posted to the BRDBRAIN LISTSERV.

These video clips of an Elegant x Sandwich hybrid (identified by Lyn Atherton and Cameron Cox) found last week in Florida were posted to brdbrains as well:

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKDmJOPImE&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95pXk9-8P8&list=UUxPduJvYi6mM_3qAY-H9oDA

Dan Irizarry
Ruskin, FL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:39 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote:
>
> All
>
> I would be interested in seeing what Royal x Sandwich tern hybrids look like. They must exist, and my guess is that they may be more likely to have non-black bill colors, but this is a gut feeling. Some reported Elegant Terns from the Atlantic look pretty good, others not so much. Often the part that looks odd to me is that the bills are thicker than typical, and shorter than typical, with less of the droop that is the norm. I do wonder if these are hybrids, but rather than involving Elegant, they may in fact be Royal x Sandwich. I know it sounds crazy, but trying to think outside the box on what can explain the fact that many Elegant type things out east are not quite right.
>
> Alvaro
>
> Alvaro Jaramillo
> alvaro@alvarosadventures.com
> www.alvarosadventures.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark B Bartosik
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 7:15 PM
> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.KSU.EDU
> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Is Elegant Tern a true rarity in Texas or it is usually misidentified?
>
> ELTE in Texas is considered as a mega rarity. Prior to 2013 there were only 3 documented records (found in 1889, 1985 and 2001) - one in west Texas and two on Texas shore. I found one ELTE on September 14, 2013 on Upper Texas Coast (accepted record) and thought that this was one in my lifetime case in Texas. Now, one year and one and half month later, on November 1, 2014, I found another one in the same area (very close to where first was found). I am confident with my ID (but open to discussion) so my question is about how often this species is really showing up in Texas and other Gulf/Atlantic states.
>
> I often see that some birders have problems with Caspian-Royal ID (and not only but this is another can of worms; unfortunately some guides are skipping plumages or not illustrating all plumages correctly) but Royal-Elegant is rather more challenging especially for people who are not living near the
> shore. The Royal Tern is a common species that has no ‘value’ for ticks
> on chaser’s lists so, I am sure, not many would spend time going trough thousands of these to be sure nothing is missed. Most birders here in Texas go out more often only during migration time (weather is another factor, nobody likes to be fried in summer - get wet or be chilled in winter). Even then majority is either chasing warblers in city parks or wait for a signal that rarity was found and everybody goes there to see it; most likely somebody will already be there to point the bird. I am fully aware that looking at large ROYT flock from far away and trying to find one ELTE is sort of trying to find a needle in a haystack.
>
> True, for many years I am studying a few tern species and recently (started about couple years ago) I designated some extra time for ROYT as well. To see that something is not a ROYT is almost instinctive now. But still my
> problem is: is it really a coincidence, luck or whatever that one person
> found two ELTE in two consecutive years? In the same area? About the same time of year? BTW the record from 2001 is also from a near area and tern was found during the first part of November as well. Coincidence again?
>
> Here are a few photos (I took some video clips as well, no time right now to process) that show the last find. This individual sports all important traits of its species.
>
> 1) long, thin bill, red-orange at the base and yellowish at the tip; long crest, crown with more black feathers than ROYT in basic plumage; black feathers around the eyes; pink flush (but very faint and practically not visible in low res photos); and partially reddish/orange legs and feet (Monroe, 1956, estimated that about 90% of ELTE population he studied had completely black legs and about 10 % either completely or partially orange).
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> 2) Size comparison: slightly larger than SATE and much smaller than ROYT
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> This individual, if re-found, will be easy to identified because of a very unique leg color pattern. At least in the near future.
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> And just a few other photos.
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> Also when looking at eBird historical data it seems to be quite possible that some (question how many) ELTE can enter Gulf or travel north along Atlantic shore from Central America. Interestedly there is no records in eBird database from Florida’s Atlantic shore, all are only from the Gulf side.
> Lack of records from Atlantic shore in Florida, South and North Carolina and Virginia might suggests that ELTE are traveling fast along the shore line without longer stops before reaching shore in northern states or they stay traveling over open waters (seems less probable as there are continuous records along the Pacific shore).
>
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
> Archives: http://listserv.ksu.edu/archiv...
>
>
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